Technical 1.3 JTD 2007 - Starting Issue.

[Twinturborob]

As title realy. 2007 1.3D 126K and a starting issue.

I bought it like this, the Previous owner seemed to be able to start it with little issues but I am not finding much joy.

I have cut my teath a bit on our other 1.3 Doblo so have a rough idea of their issues but this one seems odd.

Things to note.
1) P0520 Oil presure fault? Oil lamp takes a while to extinguish but does the ECU cut fuel with an error??
1.1) Oil level is high, may be diluted, filter and oil on order.
1.2) Replacement sensor here to fit.

2) P0485 ( Ithink , fan stage 2 fault ) It's seized so now disconnected.
2.1) will fix when she runs.

3) MES says DPF is 106%
3.1) no DPF codes, not got it hot enoug to try a regen.

4) I did catch one code breifly for a P0747 i think it is, which is for the HP Pump Inlet presure , but it's not posted again.

5) MES reports 0 RPM during crankign but I think that's normal.
6) MES says engine start is avaialble ( not imobalised )
7) MES reports required rail presure and actual rail presure as being similar.
8) With a squirt of "Start Ya B...rd" she coughs into life and runs smoothly enough.
9) She won't necesarrily start up again straight away after running for a period.
10) Brand new Exide EA640 Battery ( About the bigest thing you can fit )
11) Cranking is not especialy slow.
12) I know someone will say "replace the fule filter" but the fule presure in the rail reports fine and runs once started ( so if you can explain a reason fine )

My plans of action are relativly limited as diagnostics have elicited nothing realy ( unless that low Oil Warning causes no start ).


Replace oil filter, Sensor and Oil ( see if it brings up the presure )

Swap to a differnet HP Pump ( came from the other workign doblo when that was being a pain.
Drop the DPF to see if it's excessive back presure ( but she starts on the snifter of easy start fine )


Thanks In Advance.

Rob

 

[Greasytrucker]

Got the same problem with my Sedici multijet although mines the 1.9 engine not the 1.3. Absolute pig to start but once it’s warm it’s fine for the rest of the day. Strange thing is if you disconnect the green engine coolant temperature sensor it leaves the glow plug light on for longer and it pretty much starts on the button whatever the temperature. Not got round to checking rail pressures on mine yet though!

 

[The Panda Nut]

Difficulty starting is usually, low fuel pressure, low compression or bad glow plugs. I would say glow / heater plugs and low compression would make starting difficult so test the heater plugs are working. 126K is not significant so I would expect good compression unless there is a faulty valve. Also possible is cambelt has jumped and valve timing off.

 

[Twinturborob]

@The Panda Nut
desired and actual rail preasure is arroud 350 during cranking.
Starts almost straight away with easy start
1.3 IS Cam Chain not belt. although I know they are not as reliable as other chain driven engines.

@Greasytrucker
no codes for the glow plugs and as mentioned even when left running for a while it does not fire up straight after shut down.

 

[Greasytrucker]

@The Panda Nut
desired and actual rail preasure is arroud 350 during cranking.
Starts almost straight away with easy start
1.3 IS Cam Chain not belt. although I know they are not as reliable as other chain driven engines.

@Greasytrucker
no codes for the glow plugs and as mentioned even when left running for a while it does not fire up straight after shut down.

Not even when it’s up to temperature? Mines a pig until it’s fully warm. Mines the same in that the smallest sniff of easy start and she’s away

 

[Twinturborob]

It sat on the trailer on the way home running for about an hour, and did start but not right on the button.

It sat on Saturday for about 15 mins running on the drive and would not start straight up.



Just going by ear, the cranking does not indicate overly low compression. However I guess it could be low , perhaps the over filled sum and 106% on the DPF indicates bore wash. I have no way to test the compression. I guess I could try and get the injectors out and buy a proper compression tester. I have no idea if these 1.3's are susceptible to it.

 

[jackwhoo]

I think mes should show crank speed when cranking , it does on my old 1.9 jtd-i know that's not same as your engine.

I suggest checking crank sensor and wiring .

 

[jackwhoo]

Dpf % blocking is very deceptive 100% blocked /ash is not fully blocked

 

[Twinturborob]

@jackwhoo , the crank speed I am unsure of as the other Doblo I think shows 0RPM till running not ideal for diagnostics. Maybe a generic OBD will show differently.

Any one know if a generic set of £25 NOID lights work on the Marellie Injection?

 

[The Panda Nut]

These Fiats dont seem to like some generic readers, and although I use MES there are issues there too its a good thing but definitely not fool proof.. Unfortunatley some errors dont show up and require Fiat diagnostic. I hope compression is good as that miles I regard the engine as at its prime onterms of performance Common rail diesels dont use glo plugs like the old IDI engines and tend to start with no apparent waiting, but they are there in the background. I would be tempted to have a look at valve clearances just to eliminate it. Ive had my share of funy running diesels over the years. I think the modern diesel is a highly tuned thing and liable to being difficult at times. I HATE EGR systems as they seem to cause a lor of issues although my experience is limping home rather than bad starting. The other thing I would do is put some diesel cleaner through the system. It will do no harm and might do good. Worth having injector patterns checked too as fairly cheap to do.

 

[varesecrazy]

@The Panda Nut
desired and actual rail preasure is arroud 350 during cranking.
Starts almost straight away with easy start
1.3 IS Cam Chain not belt. although I know they are not as reliable as other chain driven engines.

@Greasytrucker
no codes for the glow plugs and as mentioned even when left running for a while it does not fire up straight after shut down.

Doesn't sound like cylinder heat is the issue,

350 BAR at low RPM?
doesn't sound too bad to me

I took readings tonight for the thread about fuelling, your fuel pressures seem ok

The CAS could still be a possibility, does your dash have a Rev Counter?

 

[Twinturborob]

CAS as in crank sensor? Ordered one anyway, having two Doblo's means It's good to have a spare for any trouble shooting.

Yes it has a rev counter, but I don't think many electronic ( especially ecu derived ) rev counters register before the running state.

 

[Twinturborob]

Replaced the Crank Sensor , no real improvement. I do see an occasional flick on the rev counter. I think it's a red herring though the no RPM in the ECU. Probbaly best check the wiring anyway though.

Changed the oil but the filter housing was stuck, tried with socket and strap wrench but would not budge.

Looks like the starter has been done in the last couple of years.

 

[Twinturborob]

Bit confused by the wiring diagrams for this ..

The diagram here seems to indicate 2 fuel regulators and 1 fule sensor. the car only has the right hand sensor on the rail and not the regulator on the left of the rail.

The diagram also ommits any mention of the Differential Presure Sensor.?

E5050 DIESEL ENGINE ELECTRONIC MANAGEMENT WIRING DIAGRAM (DPF, MY 2005) - Fiat - DOBLO - eLearn - 4CarData

 

[Twinturborob]

Oil filter now changed, Orderd one of the three prong tools that clamp down. It still did not work as the housing was so stuck the tool slipped. Got two big Jubilee clips and joined them together. Ratcheted that onto the housing and that gave the three legged tool a bit more purchase.

I had soaked the injector wells in releasing fluid to give it a chance to penetrate if I thought I needed to remove the injectors. Whilst attempting to start it this morning I was seeing what looked like a bit of smoke. On closer inspection the releasing fluid on injector 3 had bubbles at it's base and the smoke was more vapour from the releasing fluid being bubbled by compressed gasses from the cyclinder. So Injector 3 at the very least was not sealed.

I proceeded to try and remove no3 and wound off the cap by accident. But there was a little movement in the body and some tapps with a drift to rotate it and some prying gently and it came out. n04 was a little easier. even 1 & 2 came out. Now that can either be luck or a sign somone has been there before. Either way I can take the injectors to the local little specialist and get them tested, fit new washers and then I have one more confirmed component off the list ( and they can always end up as spares for Doblo 1 ).

Rob

 

[Twinturborob]

Injectors were tested and pronounced good. Refitted and tried to start friday but another leak back connector broke and spewed derv all over the floor. With that replaced i then pinged a retaining clip for the return into the land of no return. I swapped a clip to the 1st injector as I theorise it would have the least flow on it.

She still struggled to start.

Fuel Rail Sensor replaced with second hand. Still failed to start.

I checked continuity to the Crank Sensor and All seemed ok.

HP Pump replaced with known good one ( and sensor ) . She started after a while and did restart, but I am not sure if that's just luck.

So will check again tomorrow.

Next on list.

Cam sensot
Drop the exhaust off after the CAT and see if it's just got too much back presure.
Strip and clean the spare starter motor and see if the "new looking" starter is just drawining too much juice, dropping VBAT and not spinnign fast enough * sounds ok but so did the other doblo which was a poor starter )


Rob

 

[Twinturborob]

Cam sensor was replace, no improvement.

So i took the old stater motor from the other doblo, stripped it , cleaned it, replaced the two main carbon brushes, greased it , assembeld it..
Fought to put it on the car.

And....


7 out of 7 times she has started in what I would term fairly acceptable.

I noted early on that the starter looked newish, the reason I had the spare starter was because replacement fixed the other doblo to a degree. But as the one here looked new I had discounted it. Fool....

I am suspecting it was spinnign over just fast enough to seem normal but that was causing a voltage drop on the electronics. Only when the starter stoped drawing too much current did the car start ok.

So just on with trying to swap the fan, startign it every day to confirm she's good.. Thne have to sort the DPF being blcoked.

Fingers crossed she will ive again.

 

[Twinturborob]

So I got the fan swapped and running, what a faf.

Did the Forced Regen , then found I had popped the Rad whilst tusseling with the fan.

She was then not pulling well at all on a test drive but eventually loosened up and boosted. Then the back box fell off, then the starter solenoid started to pack in ( I remember now it did that when hot ).

So i ordered another new starter, and a rad. then I bust my shoulder.

Maybee on sunday I will get the Rad and Starter done, then MOT!

 

[The Panda Nut]

So I got the fan swapped and running, what a faf.

Did the Forced Regen , then found I had popped the Rad whilst tusseling with the fan.

She was then not pulling well at all on a test drive but eventually loosened up and boosted. Then the back box fell off, then the starter solenoid started to pack in ( I remember now it did that when hot ).

So i ordered another new starter, and a rad. then I bust my shoulder.

Maybee on sunday I will get the Rad and Starter done, then MOT!

OMG this beast is putting up a hell of a fight!

 

[shlaptop]

OK I had similar problem starting a dobbie that I bought with broken cam chain. I fixed chain and it just didnt want to start, all readings seemed fine using MES. Easy start worked. It didnt run well though once started. It turned out to be the EGR being jammed open- the car had stood unused for quite a while. The EGR was making the engine try to run on its own exhaust fumes. Changed EGR and it was fine. You can test by removing the top off the EGR which is a lot easier than taking it off. Just putting this here in case it helps.