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Old 19-10-2017   #1
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Using MES after timing belt change (phonic wheel)

I'm nearly ready to change the cam belt on my boy's 2012 Punto 1.4 8valve. Feeling fairly confident about the mechanical parts of the job. Waiting for various eBay purchases - Gates belt kit (with pump), cam cover gasket, sealant, engine locking tool kit, etc - to arrive. I've carefully read through the excellent forum guide for the similar 1.2 (many thanks to the author for an outstanding piece of work) & bought the Haynes manual (good discount at Halfords with trade card). As a matter of interest has anyone tried fitting a new belt without slackening the Torx bolt on the cam pulley and then seeing if the cam locking tool still lines up afterwards? I'd rather not disturb this bolt unless I really have to (by the way, if this bolt does need to be slackened should it be renewed or is it ok to just retighten the old one?). As I'm hoping soon to buy a Panda Dynamic Eco to replace our ailing family runabout, I decided to buy a registered copy of Multiecuscan. I bought from Gendan and have nothing but praise for them. I pestered them many times with "ignorant" questions and they were very patient and helpful. The kit arrived yesterday and my friend and neighbour, who "knows" about computers, is going to help me install and configure it on my laptop. I feel quite happy about how to scan for DTC's, and do other simple things but not sure about this Phonic Wheel Relearn which is, evidently, needed after the belt has been renewed. In fact I've never heard of a "phonic wheel" on anything else I've ever worked on! I've stumbled upon a guide, on YouTube, (I think the author was "Joni? or some similar name) which kind of shows the procedure but not in much detail. So I'm wondering if anyone can enlighten me as to exactly how to use MES in this respect. Is it as simple as selecting "adjustments" in engine mode then excecuting a "self adaption reset" followed by excecuting a "phonic wheel learn reset" followed by reving the engine up to around 5000 rpm three times (whilst keeping hankie ready to mop nervous sweat on forehead!) Followed by switching the ign off for a short period of time so the ECU can store the results. Do you always do the self adaption reset before a phonic wheel relearn? Is it necessary to do the lesser rev up proceeded detailed in the self adaption reset proceeded guide notes before going to the phonic wheel relearn or can you just go straight to the 5000 rpm proceeded when you do the subsequent phonic wheel reset? Indeed if I get away without having to slacken and retighten the cam pulley will a phonic wheel relearn still be needed? You can see I'm feeling quite unsure about all this. Anyone able to give me a step by step guide?
I've only been a forum member for a few weeks but already learnt a lot of useful stuff, like the how to guide for changing the cam (timing) belt. So thanks to you all, I'm loving it!
I'll also be doing a "big" service on this vehicle and have come across a very interesting website when looking for oil bargains. If anyone is interested try googling "Oilem". Lots of stuff to read. OK, going to make a cup of coffee and wait, with great excitement, for all your replies! Regards Jock!
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Old 19-10-2017   #2
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Re: Using MES after timing belt change (phonic wheel)

The relearn is to compensate for the top and bottom pulley timing inputs gradually drifting apart as the belt slackens over the years...

The new kit should make an instant change/recalibrstion to this LEARNT setting..

So it needs to RELARN where things are..

This is a common issue with this engine in the Grande...lots more info in the GP section

Charlie
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Last edited by varesecrazy; 19-10-2017 at 13:30.
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Old 19-10-2017   #3
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Re: Using MES after timing belt change (phonic wheel)

Thanks Varesecrasy. That confirms what I thought I had understood. What I was hoping was that someone might be able to talk me through, step by step, what the actual proceeded is? Also, do I need to renew that pulley bolt if I slacken it? Thanks.
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Old 19-10-2017   #4
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Re: Using MES after timing belt change (phonic wheel)

Sorry Ive got the 2cyl with cam chain..so cannot really advise.. :/
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #5
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Re: Using MES after timing belt change (phonic wheel)

No need to replace the bolt


The phelonic wheel should relearn itself if you let the car tick over a few mins with no accelerator input from memory

You slacken it to allow belt to tension rather than it pull tight between 2 fixed points
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #6
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Re: Using MES after timing belt change (phonic wheel)

Thanks for that Andy. Thanks also for your excellent guide to belt renewal. Now that I see your name I remember it was your guide I read!

Thanks for the explanation of why the cam pulley bolt needs to be slackened. I can see that. Has anyone fitted a belt without slackening this bolt and how did the cam line up afterwards? I'm wondering if these belts are so accurately made that the position of cam and crank will just return to what it was when the old belt was originally fitted?

As regards the phonic wheel relearn following the renewal of the belt, are you saying all I need to do is start the engine and let it idle for a while without touching the throttle to enable the ECU to become "happy" with the new relative position of crank and cam? Would it be advisable to switch off the ignition to allow learnt values to be stored before restarting the engine and touching the throttle? No need to use the MES then? Boy that would be great! In fact that could be accomplished whilst bleeding out the cooling system.

I'd still like a step by step guide to doing the engine phonic wheel relearn including any preparatory memory clearing just in case I need to do one in the future.

Many thanks again for that guide Andy.
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #7
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Re: Using MES after timing belt change (phonic wheel)

OK. I've been sitting thinking this all through. After a lifetime of "fixing" things I consider myself reasonably proficient with spanners, screwdrivers, torque wrench, etc and when all else fails a very big hammer! However, like many older people who haven't grown up with computers, I do toil a bit with them. I've got VCDS (Volkswagen softwear), a generic EOBD scanner and now Multiecuscan. I'm getting quite used to the VCDS package for simpler tasks and the EOBD scanner for reading DTCs. I haven't yet used the Multiecuscan in anger.

So now we come to my problem. After fitting the belt lets imagine I have the dreaded flashing engine light. Reading up on the forum it would seem that this will indicate the ECU is not happy with the new relationship between the crank sensor and cam sensor. If I understand correctly this can be corrected with a Phonic Wheel relearn which seems to involve getting the engine up to operating temperature and then reving it up to at least 5000 rpm and back to tick over three times then switching the ign off and letting it sit for a minute or so for the ECU to store the new settings before starting it up again.

When you go into adjustments on MES it shows two procedures, "self adaption reset" and "Phonic wheel learn reset". What I don't understand is whether I need to do either of these before doing the rev up procedure? or maybe I just need to do one of them and not the other? Please can some knowledgeable person enlighten me?
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #8
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Re: Using MES after timing belt change (phonic wheel)

Quote Originally Posted by Pugglt Auld Jock View Post

So now we come to my problem. After fitting the belt lets imagine I have the dreaded flashing engine light. Reading up on the forum it would seem that this will indicate the ECU is not happy with the new relationship between the crank sensor and cam sensor. If I understand correctly this can be corrected with a Phonic Wheel relearn which seems to involve getting the engine up to operating temperature and then reving it up to at least 5000 rpm and back to tick over three times then switching the ign off and letting it sit for a minute or so for the ECU to store the new settings before starting it up again.

When you go into adjustments on MES it shows two procedures, "self adaption reset" and "Phonic wheel learn reset". What I don't understand is whether I need to do either of these before doing the rev up procedure? or maybe I just need to do one of them and not the other? Please can some knowledgeable person enlighten me?


" phelonic wheel should relearn itself if you let the car tick over a few mins with no accelerator input from memory" - @andymonty
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Old 4 Weeks Ago   #9
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Re: Using MES after timing belt change (phonic wheel)

Quote Originally Posted by varesecrazy View Post
" phelonic wheel should relearn itself if you let the car tick over a few mins with no accelerator input from memory" - @andymonty
OK, it all sounds too easy, but then my wife always says I tend to look for the most obscure faults and miss the simple ones! - such as "you sure it hasn't simply run out of petrol dear"?

So my plan is now to do the belt change and leave the engine at a tick over whilst bleeding out the cooling system.

I'll let you all know how it turned out in a wee while - got to convince my boy to leave the car with me for a day first!
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Re: Using MES after timing belt change (phonic wheel)

I'm having the same issue. 2013 1.2 500 duologic. I've tried the italian tune up twice now and that hasn't worked. i'm currently trying to find out what software to buy to enable me to do the Phonic relearn as Im sure if its mentioned in Multiecuscan then it must be a necessary part of the process.
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Re: Using MES after timing belt change (phonic wheel)

Wee bit of a hold up. All the "bits" cam belt, tensioner, water pump, antifreeze, etc etc arrived but so far no timing tools! Think they've gone AWOL. I was very very nervous about installing the Multiecuscan onto my laptop ( I splashed out on the multiplexed version) because I am absolutely useless at computer stuff! Delighted to say the installation went very smoothly. Haven't had the chance to plug it into the boy's Punto yet but it's all looking good!

In the meantime I've been asking around the small garages in my area about how they would do the job. First off is they all say it's an easy one to do and, as it turns up in quite a few different cars they've all done quite a few. They don't seem to have the locking tools and would just mark up the pulleys with tipp-ex! None said they remove the cam cover! All said they've never heard of a phonic wheel reset and don't have the software to do it anyway also haven't had any customer come backs because of it! I find this very interesting. Andy's ticking over proceeded is looking better and better by the minute!

Just to satisfy my curiosity I've decided I'm going to mark up the pulleys and belt before removal. Then lock up the engine with the tools and remove the old belt. Next I'm going to mark the new belt up with identical marks to the old one. And fit it so these marks line up. I may have to remove the cam locking bar to do this. Then tighten the tensioner, rotate the engine by hand for a few revs and refit the crank locking tool. I'm having a wee bet with myself that the cam tool will just about drop in to the slot?! If not I'll have to slacken the pulley. If it does line up then maybe that explains why these small garages aren't having any comebacks!

By the way, this 2012 Punto does have a coded radio doesn't it? I'm assuming I need to use a memory saver to stop loosing the radio. We don't have the code! Anyone know?

Anyway, watch this space, I'll keep you updated as things progress.
Bigshineybike. Have a search on You Tube. Type in "Multiecuscan phonic wheel reset" the top clip on the list comes up something like "Multiecuscan 2.4 Random Error Codes- self adaption and phonic wheel reset" the author is Jonik. The last third of the clip shows stuff about this phonic wheel reset. I'm still confused though as to how you actually do it!!
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #12
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Re: Using MES after timing belt change (phonic wheel)

Well the master plan was to have this belt change done by now before the cold weather arrives. Unfortunately, although everything else is sitting in a big cardboard box in my garage, the timing tools still aren't here! Contacted the vendor who says it was posted over a week ago so it looks like it's gone AWOL. Very nice people, many apologies and have sent out a new one. Just hope the cold holds off!

Once the job is done my plan is still to try Andy's recommendation of letting it idle for a while without touching the throttle. I don't want you to feel I am ungrateful for your advice Andy, hopefully this procedure will facilitate the relearn. But now being the proud owner of my own registered Multiecuscan I really would like to know, the exact procedure to prepare for and carry out the Phonic wheel relearn.

I've tried to find out by searching the forum but I can't find anything other than the "Italian Tune Up" proceedure. It's my belief that there is some sort of stored value to be erased from the ECU'S memory prior to doing this and it's how to do this that I'm unsure of. I have asked about this in a couple of different places on the forum but so far no guidance has been forthcoming. Please don't think I'm having a moan, I'm just sure that someone on here will know how to do this and I'm trying to grab their attention.

This is a great resource and full of so much knowledge. I'm having a skulk around most nights and all the time I'm turning up little nuggets of info I didn't know! Thanks to everyone who contributed. Regards to all.
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Old 3 Weeks Ago   #13
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Re: Using MES after timing belt change (phonic wheel)

Quote Originally Posted by Pugglt Auld Jock View Post

By the way, this 2012 Punto does have a coded radio doesn't it? I'm assuming I need to use a memory saver to stop loosing the radio. We don't have the code! Anyone know?
the body computer should recognise the original unit.. so will NOT ask for a code.

that's the general theory at least..
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Re: Using MES after timing belt change (phonic wheel)

Now that's interesting. Another Fiat thing I didn't know about. Thanks. As I have the memory saver I think I'll plug it in anyway just to be safe. - unless there's some reason not to?
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Re: Using MES after timing belt change (phonic wheel)

At last, I think mine is fixed.
In my new to Fiats opinion Italian tune up cannot be done without the Multiecuscan.

I tried that and nothing happened. So I bought the kit from Gendan following a helpful phone call. The lead and software came to around 100. (They confirmed that the OBD lead I use for my Triumph motorbike is VAGcom and so not the same chip set or something).
I did struggle setting up the laptop I wasn't reading the paperwork accurately enough beware and tread carefully. I set the com 4 port to 9600 baud, also in settings my lead was called OBD link usb/bluetooth rather than any of the other suggestions which made more sense to me.

And so with the lead connected to the car and recognised etc I was able to go into a menu which resets parameters. choose 'Phonic wheel learn' and delete the existing parameters. An instuction and warnng panel flashes on the screen describing and warning of the need for the previously spoken of Italian tune up. once we tap that button; the engine MIL lamp, the warning triangle and the stop / start lamp all began to flash.
Took the car for a drive away from neighbours and a chance to warm it up. rev the knackers off it three times holding it for a few seconds each time and then all the warning lamps went off.
I turned off the engine counted slowly to ten and took it for a test drive.
for now it all seems to be fixed.

to keep my story together here is a brief history. Fiat 500 2012 500l 8v
routine service by Alfa main dealer, they changed cam belt and told us they had detected a misfire and that we should consider a new coil pack. didn't spot the connection. In regular use the car was fine.
On the motorway some months after that service the MIL light came on. Rac called and suggested coil pack. P0300, P0304 P0301codes recorded
we swapped coil pack, plug leads spark plugs.
Came to fiatforum and heard about Phonic wheel. Bought MES software.
See above.
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