lukeedukee
New member
Okay I will get them to. Clearly that’s then the main problem if the car is still being weird about the change
Technical Car stuck in limp mode after timing belt change
- Thread starter lukeedukee
- Start date
Currently reading:
Technical Car stuck in limp mode after timing belt change
lukeedukee
New member
Alright. I’ll do that first. Thank you
Quoting Jock:
'I assume they are going to look at the car for free on Saturday? If they start suggesting spending more money I'd be seeking a second opinion elsewhere.
So what do you think fellow forum members? This has got to be an incorrectly timed belt don't you think?'
It needs the garage to retime the belt with use of the correct tools.
There is a good video guide in the 500 section I believe .. just to give you a flavour
'I assume they are going to look at the car for free on Saturday? If they start suggesting spending more money I'd be seeking a second opinion elsewhere.
So what do you think fellow forum members? This has got to be an incorrectly timed belt don't you think?'
It needs the garage to retime the belt with use of the correct tools.
There is a good video guide in the 500 section I believe .. just to give you a flavour
I completely agree with PB above. I'd be starting by whipping the belt covers and cam cover off and trying the timing tools on it. You've really got to eliminate that variable factor first. What seems strange is that it's run well for some of the time since the belt was changed. If it's the cam timing that's "out" you wouldn't expect this surely? so I'm thinking it's likely to be more sensor/sensor wiring related. On past experience of these sort of things generally, it's very unlikely to be the ECU. I'd go for a poor contact inside a connector or damage to the wiring - very possibly not visible from the outside so continuity check while "enthusiastically waggling" the loom. If that seems to be OK then suspect the sensor next.
A lot of time can be spent chasing electrical gremlins though so I'd be verifying the cam timing first as it's easy to do (albeit a bit time consuming due to the need to remove "stuff" for access) Basically, if the tools slip in then that completely eliminates the question of the cam belt timing and you can them confidently start investigating other possibilities.
A lot of time can be spent chasing electrical gremlins though so I'd be verifying the cam timing first as it's easy to do (albeit a bit time consuming due to the need to remove "stuff" for access) Basically, if the tools slip in then that completely eliminates the question of the cam belt timing and you can them confidently start investigating other possibilities.
In my defense you'll notice I made these comments before luke told us the car has run "normally" for some of the time. It's really impossible to think of a scenario where it would run normally some of the time, but not at other times, if the cam timing is incorrect? So I think this is pretty sure to be electrical and the loom where it runs in that channel - and mine was quite hard to get out on both the Panda and Punto - has to be a good place to start?
Personally I'd be rechecking the cam timing just to eliminate that possibility completely - but then for me it just means a morning's worth of time wasted and my money stays in my pocket.
The GP owners get 'acceptable' running .. but a MIL at sustained high revs
That is just a fractional timing error.. less than 1 tooth
OP has been driving with the MIL for a lot of miles now
An improvement in 'performance' isnt necessarily back to 100%.. just better than the poorly of late
Im not going to respond further until the timing is checked properly.
That is just a fractional timing error.. less than 1 tooth
OP has been driving with the MIL for a lot of miles now
An improvement in 'performance' isnt necessarily back to 100%.. just better than the poorly of late
Im not going to respond further until the timing is checked properly.
Yup. Check the basics. As I've been saying.
We often see people on here chasing alternative theories, after a bit of work has resulted in changes. Every time, it is important first to verify the recent work done, as that is the only change. Whilst there is the possibility that other faults could occur when another change has happened, this is rare, unless damage has been caused, or other stuff has been disturbed.
For me, I'd want the physical timing checked properly, with the correct tools, before chasing down blind alleys. As the car ran fine before the cambelt change, the garage must sort this problem free. If they're not willing to do so, take the car away, seek other professional advice, and report the matter to Trading Standards, and be prepared to claim all the initial money back. As soon as they considered that the original state was 2 teeth out, they should have stopped, and made sure they were doing it right.
The ECU starts with its base setting, but 'learns' as it goes, to adjust timing and fuelling to accomodate wear, and driving style. This forum has exprienced this engine running one or two teeth out before, and seemign fine. It is possible that the ECU is learning its new state, and regaining some of the lost performance. Whilst it might seem much better, coming from a state of poor performance, any increase is felt.
For me, I'd want the physical timing checked properly, with the correct tools, before chasing down blind alleys. As the car ran fine before the cambelt change, the garage must sort this problem free. If they're not willing to do so, take the car away, seek other professional advice, and report the matter to Trading Standards, and be prepared to claim all the initial money back. As soon as they considered that the original state was 2 teeth out, they should have stopped, and made sure they were doing it right.
The ECU starts with its base setting, but 'learns' as it goes, to adjust timing and fuelling to accomodate wear, and driving style. This forum has exprienced this engine running one or two teeth out before, and seemign fine. It is possible that the ECU is learning its new state, and regaining some of the lost performance. Whilst it might seem much better, coming from a state of poor performance, any increase is felt.
lukeedukee
New member
Thank you for all your messages and advice. I'm getting it to the garage on Saturday this week and will just say to them that the timing belt should just be put back into its original place (if they even remember where the original position was). The slow acceleration is starting to get a bit dangerous in a national speed limit zone especially with cars (understandably) right up your arse because of the loss in speed up a hill. I absolutely need the car to be running like it was before otherwise it could be considered unsafe. Hopefully once that's done, the sensors won't be playing up, although, if they still do then that would be another problem. I will take @portland_bill 's advice and say to them that they are required to do it for free if they have a problem with it.
Would some phonic wheel relearning be required after putting it back in its original position since they did the relearning to try and get the car to like the new position of the belt?
Would some phonic wheel relearning be required after putting it back in its original position since they did the relearning to try and get the car to like the new position of the belt?
Very likely, but it's not a complicated procedure although it does need the correct equipment/scanner to do. A main dealer will definitely have the factory equipment and a smaller specialist independent workshop may have too, maybe more likely to have something like Multiecuscan. Asmall workshop which doesn't specialize in Alfa/Fiat marques is much less like,y to have a scanner/software which will do the job. so it could be interesting to quiz them on what they are using to do the Phonic Wheel Relearn. Might be revealing?
Any updates on this?
I believe most of the garages don't even have the proper timing tools for the job. Unbelievable that the garage wanted to change the position sensor. After a cambelt change, the most probable reason is timing error. I hear similar stories here too about botched cambelt jobs and even mechanics with good reputation fail to diagnose this properly. Do they just want to write you a bill and blame it on Fiats being too exotic (which they're not). I wonder?
I hear similar stories here too about botched cambelt jobs and even mechanics with good reputation fail to diagnose this properly. Do they just want to write you a bill and blame it on Fiats being too exotic (which they're not). I wonder?
I'm quite sure many small "back street" garages do timing belts by the "tippex" method, I've seen it (and done it) often. They get away with it because most of the time it works just fine. When it goes wrong though they often haven't a clue what to do to rectify the problems that arise because they don't have the tools or in depth specialist knowledge to get them "out of the hole" they've dug themselves into which a one make specialist will have.
I remembered the other day...
I bought a clio with a wrecked waterpump..
Had to change it immediately..as it didnt hold water... I just whipped off the cambelt and swapped the pump
Amazing how confident I was back then !!
I bought a clio with a wrecked waterpump..
Had to change it immediately..as it didnt hold water... I just whipped off the cambelt and swapped the pump
Amazing how confident I was back then !!
Oh tell me about it. Age, confidence and anxiety. I know Becky is going to need a new rear axle in the near future and not that long ago I would have been really looking forward to getting stuck into it. Now I find I'm not confident and worry about possible seized fixings which I wouldn't have given a second thought to a few years ago.
Don't worry too much Jock, it is easier than you'd expect. Although a means to raise the rear of the car as high as possible helps.
Two large bolts at each front corner of the axle, the rear dampers, and the whole lot drops off. There are the brake pipes and cables of course.
Lift the rear of the car. Detach brake pipes and cables. Two trolley jacks are useful, or a plank between the hubs with a jack in the centre. Or can do one side at a time. Release the dampers. Lower the hubs to the ground. now the heaviest bit is on the ground. Support the axle in the centre, release the two large pivot bolts, or remove the plates from the car, three bolts each side. Lower the front of the axle.
Then the chore of swapping the hubs over. The nuts will fight, as the studs corrode, some of the studs will come out. I replaced all of mine, except one, that refused to move, so is back in with a new nut.
Many motor factors have these tools and will lend them to their account customers with the purchased cambelt kit. I wonder why so many don't take advantage of this. Bit embarrassing to borrow the tools a week after the job.
We see the same attitude on here frequently though. "It was running fine. I've changed something. Now it is not running properly. Must be another problem."
lukeedukee
New member
Yes, there is an update. Sorry to keep you all waiting. So last Saturday they checked all the cam/crankshaft sensors which seem to be all in order, however, they didn't have any time left to check the position of the timing belt so that was delayed until Monday 3rd (yesterday). Obviously, they did all this for free and they managed to fix it yesterday.
What they found strange though is that somebody had clearly messed around in the area of the belt in between this whole problem and he thought that I had sent the car to another garage to look at the timing which he was annoyed about. However, I would never do this as it is their problem to fix and I explained it to the guy. The only thing I remember was changing the OSF tyre with another garage on the same day the new belt was fitted.
On that day, the garage that changed the tyre for me was saying that the threading inside one of the holes where the wheel lugs screwed into was knackered and that I needed a new hub, bearings etc. I explained that to the garage that changed the belt for me and the guy said that it's very easy to strip the threading if they do it too quickly as you should always screw it in by hand initially and then tighten. Anyway, the point is, on that day where I got the tyre changed, it could be that they were working in that area and damaged or removed something in the cambelt area. Never going back to that place where I changed the tyre, was a pretty terrible experience all around.
Or alternatively, the person who was changing the belt accidentally damaged something or forgot to put something back as he was working on it which seems more likely to me. However, the garage that changed the belt told me that the guy they had working on it has over 30 years of experience and that he works very carefully.
Anyway, to the point of how they fixed the issue.
They had established that the car was definitely in limp mode and that the timing was in fact "perfect" as they used the proper locking tools so no issues there. They had a look around the belt area and found that the cambelt tensioner was bust as well as the camshaft end cap which sparked the confusion mentioned earlier. I will double-check the exact details later but the EML is off which is good and remained off the rest of yesterday and on my hour trip to work this morning. The car accelerates as normal again with no issues.
I've also booked another visit to the garage that fitted the belt with regards to a new hub and wheel bearing. They're going to try and re-thread that plug as they said they had the tools to do it. If that doesn't work then it could cost me between 200-250 quid.
I want to thank you all for your help as this was quite a mind-boggling experience but I have learnt a lot which I am grateful for.
What they found strange though is that somebody had clearly messed around in the area of the belt in between this whole problem and he thought that I had sent the car to another garage to look at the timing which he was annoyed about. However, I would never do this as it is their problem to fix and I explained it to the guy. The only thing I remember was changing the OSF tyre with another garage on the same day the new belt was fitted.
On that day, the garage that changed the tyre for me was saying that the threading inside one of the holes where the wheel lugs screwed into was knackered and that I needed a new hub, bearings etc. I explained that to the garage that changed the belt for me and the guy said that it's very easy to strip the threading if they do it too quickly as you should always screw it in by hand initially and then tighten. Anyway, the point is, on that day where I got the tyre changed, it could be that they were working in that area and damaged or removed something in the cambelt area. Never going back to that place where I changed the tyre, was a pretty terrible experience all around.
Or alternatively, the person who was changing the belt accidentally damaged something or forgot to put something back as he was working on it which seems more likely to me. However, the garage that changed the belt told me that the guy they had working on it has over 30 years of experience and that he works very carefully.
Anyway, to the point of how they fixed the issue.
They had established that the car was definitely in limp mode and that the timing was in fact "perfect" as they used the proper locking tools so no issues there. They had a look around the belt area and found that the cambelt tensioner was bust as well as the camshaft end cap which sparked the confusion mentioned earlier. I will double-check the exact details later but the EML is off which is good and remained off the rest of yesterday and on my hour trip to work this morning. The car accelerates as normal again with no issues.
I've also booked another visit to the garage that fitted the belt with regards to a new hub and wheel bearing. They're going to try and re-thread that plug as they said they had the tools to do it. If that doesn't work then it could cost me between 200-250 quid.
I want to thank you all for your help as this was quite a mind-boggling experience but I have learnt a lot which I am grateful for.
Last edited:
vexorg
Prominent member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2021
- Messages
- 1,833
- Points
- 565
What's changed? I'm still like that now
, though the 500 engine threw me at first with the "no timing mark" ideaLukeedukee, it appears that the garage had done improper job with the belt and you're very lucky that it didn't cause expensive engine damage. If new cambelt tensioner was fitted, it's not been installed correctly or was mishandled in a way which caused it to fail and lose tension. It explains why there were fault codes from both position sensors. It's quite smart in what it was trying to tell - the belt tension was becoming loose.
If it had the old tensioner, then i'd not blame the garage because tensioners have to be replaced always. With 30 years of experience one can become a little blind or it's just a way for the garage to explain themselves and try to earn your trust back. I'd not use their services again if I were you. It's just pure luck that the engine was not damaged.
If it had the old tensioner, then i'd not blame the garage because tensioners have to be replaced always. With 30 years of experience one can become a little blind or it's just a way for the garage to explain themselves and try to earn your trust back. I'd not use their services again if I were you.
It's just pure luck that the engine was not damaged. Similar threads
