Hi,

I'm changing the belts and waterpump of my Panda 2011 1.2 engine.

I can't find the original timing mark on the cam belt pulley, I would like to check if it is still aligned.

I couldn't find any notch or so, only a "H" marking.

You would expect something like this:


This is the cam pulley:


I only found this "H": (when I put the engine on TDC)
When I turn another the crankshaft another 360 degrees to TDC (cam 180 degrees) there is absolute nothing to find.


Some one got a clear picture a some good advice?

Dabs of white paint on the wheel and engine/head are all that's needed. You just have to be sure the belt goes back with the wheels located the same as they are now.

Just make sure the cam and crank do not turn more than a few degrees when the belt is removed. Change water pump and idler pulley correct the alignment and fit the new belt.

Be sure the wheel alignment stays correct as you tighten the tensioner.

Fuzz Townsend slices the old cam belt along the middle then removes outer 1/2 of the belt. The new belt can then slip into place and the remaining 1/2 of the old belt is cut off. Use cable ties to take up the belt slack while you replace water pump and idler pulley.

In retrospect I should have done some dabs of white paint.

But I didn't, and I already replaced the belt, waterpump and the tensioner and cranked it a couple of times by hand.

Other cars I've done timing belt changes always had clear markings, so I never had issues with finding the right position.

So any other clear picture a some good advice?

It really doesn't matter what marks you use. The main point is to keep the correct relationship between crank and cam angles.

I believe the FIRE engine has peg holes in the cam where you can drop in a suitable pin to hold it in place.


Engines like the twin cams need special tools to lock the cam shafts. These also have "loose" cam wheels. The cams are locked, the wheels are unlocked from the cams and the belt fitted. The belt is then tensioned and the crank is correctly set. Only then can the cam wheels be locked in place.

All that ensures that tensioning the belt does not shift the timing.

Earlier this year I did the timing belts on both our 2010 1.2 Panda and my boy's 1.4 8valve Punto. The Punto has the same "variator" hydraulic sprocket which you show in your second picture and the Panda, with it's Euro4 Evo 2 engine, has a solid sprocket as shown in your first picture. Both engines have "free" sprockets. That is to say they do not have keyways so if you slacken the sprocket retaining bolt the sprocket can spin freely on it's shaft and there's no way back without timing tools! I think the 2010 1.2 euro4 Evo2 engine was the last to use a solid cam sprocket (and, maybe, the first with the "free" sprocket?) which could explain why your 2011 has the variator type pulley (euro 5?)

Fiat recommend using an engine locking tool kit when renewing these belts so I bought one (around £40 to £45 on ebay if I remember?). Out of interest I changed both belts - Inc water pumps - without using the timing tools, by marking up the belt and crank/cam pulleys with tipped and then double checking with the timing tools. The result was absolutely perfect and no subsequent adjustment was needed. So I would say you're probably ok to use the "tippex" method, worked for me anyway. Of course if you slacken the cam sprocket retaining bolt you're stuffed and will need to buy the timing tools and because THERE ARE NO TIMING MARKS on these engines you must mark everything up before removing the old belt as, if anything moves, you'll also be stuffed! Fuzz's method works well but I would want to mark up the sprockets and block/head before I started just in case?

For your information here's what I did. After removing the engine mount, auxiliary belt, timing belt covers, etc to expose the belt itself, I marked the bottom (crankshaft) sprocket, cam belt and engine block with tippex. Then I did the same, marking the sprocket, belt and cylinder head, at the top end. Removed the old belt, tensioner and water pump. Assembled the new water pump to the block and loosely fitted the tensioner. Taking the old belt I transferred the tippexed marks on the old belt to the new belt and double checked (by counting teeth on the belts) that the new belt was marked up identical to the old one. Now all you have to do is fit the new belt and check all the marks line up. Tension the tensioner and turn the engine over a few times to check the valves are not playing tag with the pistons! The whole procedure is made easier if you take the spark plugs out before you start as it makes turning the engine over much easier. Do your marking up and fitting very carefully because you will not find that the marks will line up again after just a few turns. The sprocket and engine block/head marks will line up every 2 crankshaft revolutions of course, but the belt markings won't!

I've been around cars etc for most of my working life so it might be interesting for folk to know that I found these belts amongst the easiest to do. The hardest bit is getting the bolts out of the engine mount, especially the ones underneath. Wiggling the mount out between the front of the engine and the
Inner wing is fun too but much easier when you realise you have to jack the engine up and down for additional space! I also had one of the wheel arch liner fixing screws excessively corroded. Took me a good 20 minutes to get it out! I swear I heard it laughing at me!

I suppose I should say that if you try my method then be it on your own head. It's not the manufacturer recommended way and, unless you're experienced, easy to make an engine wrecking mistake! Valve heads and piston crowns do not take kindly to one another!

By the way, it's only the cam sprocket that is "keyless". The smaller crankshaft sprocket is still keyed. So if you find leaking oil seals you can do the crank nose (oil pump) seal no bother but you'll need a timing tool kit to do the camshaft one as you'll have to remove the sprocket to do it. Unless you have a much earlier engine (but I don't know when they went "keyless"?) Our old '92 Panda Parade had a keyed camshaft as far as I remember and timing marks!

Thank you both, and especially Pugglt Auld Jock for the extended answer.

So I found out that my Panda has a variable timing camshaft, I also found a bullitin on the website of SKF about our Fiat/Lancia engines.

I dont have 5 posts yet, so I cant post any urls yet so I had to cut the URL untill it was accepted by the forum:
http://www.skf.com/binary/207-139733/PP-2-VKMA-C-02206-EN.pdf

As you can see in the picture 2, my engine has indeed the varator electro valvo sitting on top of the engine. I thought the cam sprocket was just "dumb" and had a fancy cover, but nevertheless.



So the only way if the relation of the cam and crank sprocket is misaligned is to use the Fiat maintenance tool, and rotated the cam sprocket until the tool will fitt/lock into the hole/place (which is when the camshaft is align for TDC)?


Stubborn that I am, I placed everything back and filled up the coolant. After a quick prayer, I cranked the engine over after which it started. :worship:
The engine sounds to turn good, I will putt everything back and will put if for a test drive to see if the engine has good pick up and power.


A question, how will the car respond if timing belt will is misaligned by one tooth (back or forth) or more? Will it directly be noticeable if a single tooth is shifted by poor idle or so, or will it completely die on me by just cranking?

Thanks in advance

The later 8V engines WILL BE DAMAGED if the cam timing is wrong. You will need all the necessary special tools.

So, you just "went for it" and hit the starter without turning the engine by hand first? You're a much braver (and by the sound of it luckier) man than I! As has been said, the later engines - and that's definitely the ones with the Variator sprocket - are interference so you have been lucky! Always turn the engine over, gently, by hand, for at least two crank shaft revolutions before hitting the start button so you can feel if anything (ie pistons and valves) are making contact.

Here's a picture of the locking tool kit I bought which works on all the 8 valve engines but not the 16 valve ones (although it says on the cover label that it does!)



The bright metal bar on the right is the cam locking tool. You have to remove the cam cover (older people will call it a rocker cover) to gain access as it engages with a slot in the other end of the camshaft to the sprocket. Here it is bolted in place on "Becky's" 60HP engine.



Also in the first picture you can see a large black fixture on the left which is the crank shaft locking tool. Here it is on Becky.



You will also need the small black tool with the silver colored bolt (top right) which is used to immobilise the sprocket whilst you tighten it's securing bolt (and it goes up very tight!). By the way the small tool with a hole in it, just to the left of the sprocket tool, is my home made flywheel locking tool and not a standard part of the kit. I wouldn't trust the kit's crank locking tool, which "hangs" on a 6mm bolt, to hold when trying to slacken the crank sprocket bolt - which you will need to do if the oil seal were to need replacing.

I've been thinking about your situation. As I understand it you didn't slacken the cam sprocket bolt (and why would you if you didn't know the recommended proceedure) but you took the cam belt off without marking anything up? So now you have an engine which is technically untimed with no marks to enable you to time it up again. And, on your later model engine, in danger of possibly suffering valve/piston contact if the crankshaft is turned!

You could, in theory, time it up by removing the spark plugs and, very gently, rotating the crankshaft, either clockwise or anticlockwise, feeling for valve contact all the time, until the pistons are all half way up (or down, if you like to think of it that way) the bores, and so nowhere near the valves. Now you can safely turn the camshaft until either No1 or No4 cylinder's valves are in overlap (that is to say "on the rock" with the exhaust just closing and the inlet just opening) the other cylinder will have both valves closed. Now gently turn the crankshaft to TDC on 1 and 4 and try refitting the belt. I think you should be able to get to within half a tooth so fitting the belt correctly should be possible. Of course, after tensioning the belt and checking nothing has moved (make temporary marks on sprockets and engine) you should still turn the engine over at least twice (so cam goes one complete rev) to check there is no piston/valve contact. This is quite risky stuff if you have little experience as it's not easy to accurately establish true TDC on an engine with no timing marks. also some engines do not have their inlet and exhaust valves opening and closing at the same no of degrees before and after TDC/BDC so some intelligent thought and past experience helps a lot. It doesn't matter if you choose to time it up on No1 or No4 as the ignition system picks up it's position from the sensor on the end of the camshaft so it knows which cylinder to fire (although the timing trigger is the crankshaft sensor).

Need I say that this all puts your engine at some risk if you don't really know what you're doing so don't try it unless you feel confident in your ability and fully understand the risks - the bill could be huge if you get it wrong!

Hope you found that interresting? If any of you more experienced chaps want to contradict or correct me please feel free. I'm always up for gaining knowledge.
Kindest regards
Jock

Roll on electronic "cams"

Yo Cerberus
You must be a lucky guy
But if the timing was out, not only would the valves hit a piston, it would run rough, hestitate etc.

gr J

A3jeroen said:

Yo Cerberus
You must be a lucky guy
But if the timing was out, not only would the valves hit a piston, it would run rough, hestitate etc.

gr J

Click to expand...

A pal had a Ford which perked up nicely when the cam belt was replaced. It had been timed with the belt mis-timed by at least one tooth. No harm done.


The new belt should be tested by CAREFULLY turning the engine with the spark plugs out and feeling for anything untoward. If its wrong a valve is VERY easy to bend - even turning by hand.

DaveMcT said:

A pal had a Ford which perked up nicely when the cam belt was replaced. It had been timed with the belt mis-timed by at least one tooth. No harm done.


The new belt should be tested by CAREFULLY turning the engine with the spark plugs out and feeling for anything untoward. If its wrong a valve is VERY easy to bend - even turning by hand.

Click to expand...

Oh yes. If you are swinging the engine over with any vigor at all there will be quite enough rotational energy stored in the flywheel to bend valves. Being out by a small amount, say one or two teeth, is not usually mechanically a problem on petrol engines although it won't run as it should. Clearances on diesels are much tighter and I'd not be happy with anything other than "spot on"! I'm not saying you should run a wrongly aligned petrol motor, just that damage is less likely if the timing is only slightly out.

I cranked it over by hand before starting it by ingnition. Turning over by hand felt good and there was no more resistance than initially when turn the crank with the old belt still on it.

The test drive went well but the engine seems to be pinging? I dont know what how it should sound it could also be the ticking of the injectors as I dont remember the injectors were this "noisy".

I was told that the valves and cylinder wouldnt interfere and that there would be a risk. But now I know better. Indeed I didnt loosen the cam sprocket.

If the engine is really pinging this could indicate that the timing is a tooth off?

I would like to have a way to test if the cam shaft is on time. So the only way to really be sure is to use the special tool.

On all the older cars I have worked on, all the shafts always had some timing marks to verify that the shaft was on time. So I never had to use the "paint" etc. If I just had know, I was in much less problems.

I was even thinking of should I mark it, and though "Naah I just need to know/find the right mark" which why I started this thread.

Would pinging this pinging (to early combustion) be solved by turning the cam shaft one tooth (counter)clockwise..

Because the cam sprocket has no locating key once the securing bolt is slackened the angular relationship between the cam itself and the pulley which drives it becomes almost infinite so a timing mark would be meaningless. As far as I know the main ignition trigger is the crank pulley sensor and that sprocket is keyed so it remains "true" but the cam sensor can, I think? introduce variations to the timing settings? So, if it is "Pinking", as we would call it, that you are hearing, it just might be a bit too much cam advance. In which case retarding it might have an effect? but by how much? The injectors on our 60HP are not really audible inside the car.

A horrid thought I know, but if your cam is a few teeth out could the noise you are hearing be the pistons and valves just lightly "kissing" each other but not by enough to bend a valve head? Not very likely I suppose, but you never know. If it's Pinking you'll only get it when the engine is under load (ie pulling hard) If the noise is there all the time, whenever the engine is running, then I would guess you've got a mechanical problem.

In my opinion you really need to get your hands on the timing tools and check it properly. Over here there are quite a few small independent Italian car specialists. If there is anything like that on your side of the water you might find they would be prepared to check it for you at reasonable cost.

Good luck with it all. If it's any consolation to you I'm no stranger to the experience of sitting in the corner with head in hands, thinking to myself "If only"!
Kindest regards
John

The cam really needs to be set using the tool. Sadly the slot in the rear of the cam is not horizontal when timed, so the tool with the correct angled bar to set the slot is required.

The engines with variable timing are likely to be 'safe' at low speeds, but at higher revs, when the cam timing is changed, valves may hit pistons if the overall timing is wrong. So turning it by hand won't show this. £40-50 for a set of tools is way cheaper than valves hitting pistons.

I doubt you would hear the valves touching. The cam belt on my HGT had been losing teeth for a few miles but only finally let go when engine revs were raised to pull away in first gear.

The only thing strange from the driver's seat was that the idiot used a car which he knew had an old cam belt.


There is no certainty that you have misstimed the cam but pre-ignition bad enough to hear from the driver's seat will be hammering the piston tops. It wont take long to blow a piston through.

It needs to be properly investigated.

Oke, I might have misjudged the situation.

After my test drive which went fine, the wife took the car for groceries. (only for 1,5 km, but a lot of groceries)

When she arrived back home, I already had left to an appointment.
She called me over to tell that with (de)acceleration, the car made a chain/pinking/whooshing like sound.
I sort of freaked out, thinking it was really pinking.

Yesterday day late I returned at home and went with my wife for a small spin.
After which I was quite relieved to say that the sound she was hearing were the air bubbles whooshing true to the radiator of the air circulation. I misinterpreted some things she told me on the phone about the noises and stumbling of the car. But the engine just started and drove smooth as silk.

I think I have been very lucky that everything went well considering the consequence.

I partly used this video about belt placement:


I place the white and yellow line on the new timing belt on the "timing marks" as mentioned in the video.
Placement of the belt was started at the crank, counterclockwise with keeping a good tension on the belt and placing the belt over the cam sprocket without turning it. The upper yellow line of the belt corresponded with the "H" marking on the cam sprocket.

The belt had almost zero slack on the between the cam, water pump and crankshaft. After which is placed the tensioner and put it to the right tension.

I might have been very lucky, as the "H" marking didn't mean sh!t, as everybody mentioned the cam sprocket is free spinning. Been thinking, what probably saved my ass, is that when I removed the old belt and placed the new belt I didnt turn the cam sprocket, and placed the belt very tight as I've been used to do in order to get timing belts on other cars just on the right spot/timing marking.

I eventually made a little video about the engine sound:





The only thing now that is left, is that I need to bleed the remaining air out of the air circulation.
I tried to bleed it a couple of times with engine of and on but, it won't bleed all the way.

Anyone got some tips or advice?

When I came to refill "Becky's" cooling system after her cam belt/water pump change earlier in the year and having sometimes had problems in the past when bleeding cooling systems, I made up a wee device to raise the radiator "head" pressure. I have a box of old hoses kept from ones I've replaced in the past.



The larger diameter is a piece of old radiator hose (could be an "old" mini?) chosen to fit the radiator filler orifice and here it is pushed into the filler. It needs to be a really good tight fit so no coolant can leak.



The smaller is heater hose. Sealed with some self amalgamating tape. The yellow funnel was chosen just to brighten things up! (ha, ha!). Here's a picture of it in use.



To use it first fill the radiator full to the top. Then open the heater hose bleed screw and run the engine to chase out most of the air. (you can leave the cap off as you'll need to top up as the air is displaced). Quite quickly you'll find most of the air will be spat out and now you can put the funnel and pipe in place and put more coolant in (you can see it in the 3rd picture). When clear coolant starts coming out of the bleed screw you can close it off, put the radiator cap back on - why not treat it to a new one? - and that's it! I found that the coolant level in the header/expansion tank dropped slightly over the next few days as the last of the air found it's way out of the system and it took a tea cup full or so to bring the level back up, after about a week the level stabilised and has not needed any further top ups. That was about 6 months ago. You may find that the first time the engine gets fully up to temperature and the thermostat opens there will have been a good bit of air trapped behind the thermostat which might cause a sudden drop in coolant level in the header tank. This didn't happen with mine, but if you notice a sudden change in level after the first time she gets properly hot this is likely to be the reason. DON'T BE TEMPTED TO IMMEDIATELY REMOVE THE RADIATOR CAP UNTIL THE ENGINE HAS COOLED SIGNIFICANTLY! Of course you will need to top it up but taking the cap off a cooling system when fully up to temperature is very risky as scalding hot water can fountain out under pressure. I've seen this happen and the apprentice involved spent the night in hospital and was off work for about a month!