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Arguing with Used Car Dealers?

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Arguing with Used Car Dealers?

SB1500

SB1500

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My sister - who has terrible experience with cars- bought a 2007 Mazda 6 1.8 petrol not so long ago, a few months... From a used car dealer. Not 'Fiat Main Dealer' level, but side of the road, has their own premises dealer.

The car wouldn't work the other day and it's come out that the engine is seized. It was a pretty decent condition car from what I could tell and ran okay....

So is that it? You spend a couple of grand on a used car expecting it to be decent enough and something like that happens and there's a 1.5 tonne paperweight outside your house?

She claims there's no warranty with it... I found that hard to believe. But I can't help but feel there must be something more that can be done - especially for your typical woman who knows nothing about cars and doesn't have that much money - is it just tough luck?

Interested to hear back as the thought of that happening to me down the line is terrifying. My view is you need to spend at least £5,000 at a main dealer to get a dependable car, which might be over the top but still
 
Did she check the oil?

Over here the typical warranty on a used car from a dealer is 3 months, engine and gearbox only, but it depends on the dealer.

How long was "a few months"? Oil should be checked every week/every fill-up, certainly at least every month...

Maybe you could show her where things are under the bonnet?
 
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There has to be a story as to why it seized, they don't just seize.

If that story was something that was faulty at point of sale then you could have a case for saying it wasn't fit for purpose.

Petrol MZRs are usually pretty bullet proof but if you cheap out on the oil and use mineral/part synthetic or skip changes it can block the strainer in the sump. Leading to no oil circulation and engine death. It's usually pretty noisy before hand if that's the case as it metal on metals itself to death. Usually only effects diesels due to the sludge they generate though.
 
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Hi @SB1500 ,
You (your sister) has rights under the consumer rights act (replaced the sale of goods act in 2015) even if there is no warranty. This is up to six months after purchase. See http://www.thecarexpert.co.uk/rejecting-a-car/ for some info. If you or she has motoring assistance membership (AA RAC etc) they may give free advice. Talk to the dealer first but be careful of letting them having it back in their possesion before you are fully aware of your rights and what they might do. I had trouble with a dealer a few years ago and had to go to small claims curt but won in the end. I understand it's easier to reject a car now.

Robert G8RPI.
 
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A sad story, but before attacking the dealer, a bit of basic diagnosis needs to be done.

Who says it is seized? Do they actually know what they are talking about. I've known people claim a seized engine because the battery is flat. It won't turn over, so therefore it is seized.

Seizure could be lack of oil. So pull the dipstick and see what is on there. How much, what condition, does it smell different than you'd expect.

Could be overheating. Coolant level?
Does it actually have coolant, or just water? If your weather has been cold like ours, the water in the engine might just have frozen. The water pump won't turn, so if driven from the cambelt, neither will the engine turn. This could cause cambelt to slip, then valves touch pistons, so 'seized'. If happened just on the starter, might get away with no damage.

Similarly, water pump failure could show similar results as above.

Clutch failure can cause the engine not to turn over.

Sometimes a starter motor can 'seize' the engine. If it remains engaged with the flywheel, it gets spun too fast, the commutator explodes, seizing the starter. Remaining engaged can be caused by a fault in the starter, or sometimes a fault with the ignition switch. I've known a big bunch of keys to be heavy enough to keep the ignition switch turned enough to keep the starter engaged.

Needs a calm look over before going in for a squabble.
 
portland_bill said:
A sad story, but before attacking the dealer, a bit of basic diagnosis needs to be done.

Who says it is seized? Do they actually know what they are talking about. I've known people claim a seized engine because the battery is flat. It won't turn over, so therefore it is seized.

Seizure could be lack of oil. So pull the dipstick and see what is on there. How much, what condition, does it smell different than you'd expect.

Could be overheating. Coolant level?
Does it actually have coolant, or just water? If your weather has been cold like ours, the water in the engine might just have frozen. The water pump won't turn, so if driven from the cambelt, neither will the engine turn. This could cause cambelt to slip, then valves touch pistons, so 'seized'. If happened just on the starter, might get away with no damage.

Similarly, water pump failure could show similar results as above.

Clutch failure can cause the engine not to turn over.

Sometimes a starter motor can 'seize' the engine. If it remains engaged with the flywheel, it gets spun too fast, the commutator explodes, seizing the starter. Remaining engaged can be caused by a fault in the starter, or sometimes a fault with the ignition switch. I've known a big bunch of keys to be heavy enough to keep the ignition switch turned enough to keep the starter engaged.

Needs a calm look over before going in for a squabble.
Click to expand...



Apparently the dealer has been out to look at it and had deemed it as seized. There’s oil in it and antifreeze in it. I suspect a clogged oil filter which killed the oil pump? Which seems plausible given there’s oil in the engine but maybe it couldn’t make its way around and metal on metal met?


Is there any easy way I could test for such situations you mention? The car is outside her house so I could get a look at it safely enough but at kerb side
 
Oil filter should have a bypass valve, to allow oil to flow even if the filter becomes clogged.

As above, needs investigation to determine what exactly "seized" means.
 
Steve145 said:
Oil filter should have a bypass valve, to allow oil to flow even if the filter becomes clogged.

As above, needs investigation to determine what exactly "seized" means.
Click to expand...

It doesn't really matter why it's seized as far as rejecting the car goes. It should not have a catastrophic failure after a "few months" so if it's less than 6 months reject it and get your money back. The dealer appears to have accepted it's not usable and if basic driver checks like oil and coolant level are OK it's a no-brainer, the dealer is liable. That's why we pay more for a dealer car than a private purchase, to get protection. So use the protection.


Robert G8RPI
 
SB1500 said:
Apparently the dealer has been out to look at it and had deemed it as seized. There’s oil in it and antifreeze in it. I suspect a clogged oil filter which killed the oil pump? Which seems plausible given there’s oil in the engine but maybe it couldn’t make its way around and metal on metal met?


Is there any easy way I could test for such situations you mention? The car is outside her house so I could get a look at it safely enough but at kerb side
Click to expand...

Did it have any top end noise? They are a timing chain engine they usually rattle pretty good before they let go or slip. Regards the oil feed they are in the sump itself and has a filter over the end. Normally on a petrol this causes no issues but if the oil changes are infrequent or of the wrong grade it's not impossible to block it and the only way to see it is to drop the sump. If that's blocked the oil pump is sucking air. Bloke on the 3 forum with a diesel had it happen, went from healthy to scrap in about 20 minutes. But the oil light was on and there was screeching bearings and the sound of imminent engine death going on, he chose to ignore both.
 
g8rpi said:
It doesn't really matter why it's seized as far as rejecting the car goes. It should not have a catastrophic failure after a "few months" so if it's less than 6 months reject it and get your money back.
Click to expand...

Legally you can only reject the car and get a full refund in the first 30 days.

If you've had it more than 30 days, but less than six months, the dealership can, at their option, repair the car instead of refunding your money. If they can't or won't repair it, then the dealer is allowed to deduct a reasonable amount for the use you've had from the car before it failed. On a 10yr old used car, if it's gone a day over the six months, I doubt you'd get anything as it would be nigh on impossible to prove the failure wasn't down to wear and tear.

The OP might want to have a read of this.
 
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A reasonable amount of deduction for use would have to be less then 40p per mile (the tax man's valuation of car use which includes fuel). For a 10 year old car the value per mile would be less, you also have to make reduction in the vale per mile for insuarance costs and car tax so 20p per mile would be a high figure. Thats £200 per 1000 miles deduction. I doubt a second car in NI will have done high milage. Dealers are getting away with a lot because people think it is too difficult or they have no rights. You can return a car up to six years after you first became aware of a fault., the difference is up to 30 day you can demand a refund rather than having to allow a repair.
A seized engine is not "wear and tear".

Robert G8RPI.
 
g8rpi said:
A reasonable amount of deduction for use would have to be less then 40p per mile (the tax man's valuation of car use which includes fuel). For a 10 year old car the value per mile would be less, you also have to make reduction in the vale per mile for insuarance costs and car tax so 20p per mile would be a high figure. Thats £200 per 1000 miles deduction. I doubt a second car in NI will have done high milage. Dealers are getting away with a lot because people think it is too difficult or they have no rights. You can return a car up to six years after you first became aware of a fault., the difference is up to 30 day you can demand a refund rather than having to allow a repair.
A seized engine is not "wear and tear".

Robert G8RPI.
Click to expand...

I claim 45p per mile
 
SB1500 said:
Apparently the dealer has been out to look at it and had deemed it as seized. There’s oil in it and antifreeze in it. I suspect a clogged oil filter which killed the oil pump? Which seems plausible given there’s oil in the engine but maybe it couldn’t make its way around and metal on metal met?


Is there any easy way I could test for such situations you mention? The car is outside her house so I could get a look at it safely enough but at kerb side
Click to expand...

Seized can still mean that a crank bearing, camshaft or piston has physically seized and won't move. Or it can mean that there is a physical restraint of some sort, such as the starter or clutch broken.

If the car is outside her house, did it fail there? So just trying to start it, or as it stopped? Or has it been recovered?
Details needed.
Exactly how long has she had the car.
How many miles done, and total miles on car.
More details of the failure, was it already running, at what road and engine speeds, or trying to start, or just turning off. (Cam belts can let go with the little jolt as the engine stops) If crank seized, would expect loss of power just before seizure, rather than sudden stop.
Was it a sudden stop.
Any noises or warnings, before failure, or during. Honesty is needed here if we are to help diagnose cause. Important to determine cause, before any arguments about liability.
When was the oil last checked? Has it been topped up after the failure? (Not unknown, clean oil a bit of a giveaway)

Any other details you can get.
 
ive known people to think a car engine is seized when its just alternator seized removed belt and engine has turned over fine.

i never understand why people buy from side of road dealers they are just auction cars you may as well just go to the auction yourself and the money saved would pay for a repair if needed.
 
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IMG_4751.JPGIMG_4709.JPG

The letter and the Astra it resulted in. Very effective way to spend 60p printing the letter alright!!!
 
SB1500 said:
My view is you need to spend at least £5,000 at a main dealer to get a dependable car, which might be over the top but still
Click to expand...

It's all down to luck really. If it's been looked after, a £500 banger bought privately can be dependable. On the other hand, you can spend £50k plus on a "prestige" car that will do nothing but go wrong all the time.
 
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