The Negotiator said:

The reasons are that he lives in a fairly bad area, he's usually alone and very venerable.

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Sorry I don't mean to pick hairs - but an interesting point??

I'm sure he is worthy of respect, I do not doubt it - but do you mean Vulnerable? lol

Paul, you seem to have got some good advice here, but a couple more suggestions regarding fire detection:

1). As for waking him in the event of a fire, consider a deaf alerter system as used in hotels, a vibrating pad under his pillow.

2). In addition to smoke detectors, consider heat detection where you might have smoke or fumes anyhow, ie. the kitchen, make sure it is a fixed temperature type though rather than rate of rise, because in a kitchen steam from a pan can set off a rate of rise detector.

ffs cinq, i am sure people can work out what venerable/vulnerable or the other 10 ways that it can spelt and still be understood. I don't study linguistics and aslong as most of my writing is understandable and an effort made I don't care.

Of course I should thank you for pointing out my error, of course however you weren't doing it to be useful.

Thanks James - Liam pointed out that vibrating pillow device but as he is only hard of hearing (still can talk to him if you are clear and loud without hearing aid) it would be a waste I think. I am looking at getting 3-4 optical wireless smoke alarms.

Cheers Poggy great advice as usual, nearly missed your post aswell. All excellent points. I am just getting my head around it because I jsut thought that the dialler would take the siren output from the alarm and sound whatever causes it. (?) Maybe you can get better ones than that. Of course a dialler that will call and say the panic alarm has been triggered is infinitely better than if it dials each and every time something happens (i.e. false alarms). A panic alarm message could be acted up immediately by every relative going to the house and police called if necessary. I suppose it's something I really need to look into properly rather than trying to do quickly and cheaply.


I will look into a GSM dialler.

I love the shot gun blanks idea! Though a little overkill for this. As I have said, I wouldn't care if they stole every possession of his, it's just the chance that you get one of those insanely evil people who don't care what they do....

As I have said, I will have to go and learn more about autodiallers and their uses.

You would need an alarm panel with a communicator panel to be able to use the seperate outputs for the autodialler. Basically you record a verbal message for each of the three or four outgoing messages and then program in 3 telephone numbers. It will dial them one after the other until the person on the receiving end presses a buttin ie "5", this confirms that somebody has listened to the message other than an answer machine.

Have a look at www.moretonalarms.com, they have a dialler for £75.00 which also allows you to listen in and talk back, and it says "ideal for the elderly". They also do a voice & text dialler for £85.00.

http://www.moretonalarms.com/acatalog/Telephone_Diallers.html

They also do smoke detectors with relays etc for seperate sirens etc.

Andy

The Negotiator said:

Thanks James - Liam pointed out that vibrating pillow device but as he is only hard of hearing (still can talk to him if you are clear and loud without hearing aid) it would be a waste I think. I am looking at getting 3-4 optical wireless smoke alarms.

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Ah, I didn't notice Liams post

Worth bearing in mind though, this product is aimed at deaf AND hard of hearing

Once again cheers Andy and James.

How come you know so much about it Andy? I am now in a difficult position, I very much doubt his alarm has multiple outputs but if we got one with multiple outputs for the dialler and fully integrated a fire/smoke alarm system it would be fantastic. I am just looking up info of his budget alarm. See he's the sort of bloke to not want to get rid of what he sees as a perfectly good alarm box just for one with something slightly better.

Allit says is:

A professional alarm panel with 7 programmable zones and 1 dedicated 24 hour tamper zone. Programmable options include part guard. PA, chime, fire, plus 6 user codes and 1 engineer code. The panel can be used in conjunction with a 32 digit LCD keypad and the innovative Sleep Watch keypad. A total of 6 LCD keypads can be incorporated and they will ease programming whilst offering a 50 event memory with built-in time and date. The Sleep Watch keypad can be used as a “panic attack" function and also to unset and reset the system for a pre-programmed time interval. All internal zones could be unset at the push of a button whilst maintaining full perimeter protection. The LCD keypads (L86AF) and the Sleep Watch keypads (L85AF) are available separately.A rechargeable lead-acid battery may be installed to perform back up in the event of mains failure. Suitable types are shown in the batteries section of the catalogue rated at 12Vdc with 1.2 - 7Ah capacity.

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Well, plenty to look at and I have looked at that site, very good. I will keep you updated with what we decide.

We were going to spend £50 odd on a smoke alarm (optical) system (£16/unit, 3-4)that work wirelessly though it might be a better idea to fit them into the main alarm unit, i have the data sheet now so am looking at outputs.

2 Auxiliary 13.5V dc 250mA
Bell output 12V dc timed reset
Speaker rated at 1ohm
Strobe 12V continuous until reset

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Ohh looks good!! That means I assume that we can have the 2 aux outputs into the dialler (one for panic, one for fire?) then maybe it is possible to have the bell output also to the third output (doubting that though without a few electronics)

Anyway, it calls them SAB outputs, i assume this is what the dialler uses. Will go find out

cinqmeister said:

I'm sure he is worthy of respect, I do not doubt it - but do you mean Vulnerable? lol

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Maybe he meant 'vunerable' - why the capital letter? I can understand it being Venerable, if refering to an Archdeacon

all sounds like good plan only thing im worried about is the locks on his bedroom door. like you say if he ill people cant get in. if there is fire fireman will have to axe it down to get at him taking time. and if there is fire in his room will he be ok to open the door in a hurry ?

only other safety thing i canthink of that you havent covered really depends on how mobile he is? i assume his bedroom is up stairs. does it have a fire escape window ?? ie a window that opens wide enough for him to get out? well if it does you can get fire escape ladder things that you put over the window sill when there is fire out side room and you need to get out. obviuosly if he isnt very mobile then rope or semi rigid rope ladders wont be any good anyway. but just thought i would mention it

http://www.safelincs.co.uk/section.php?xSec=5 this site has a selection and shows you what i mean if you havent seen them before

With the lock on the door I would make sure it is only used in the event that somebody is in the house and he is in that room. BUT does this make it practically useless and only leave the risk that one day he may lock it not thinking (we all do silly things!). I think I am going to stick with making sure they don't get into the house in the first place. I see the only thing i need to do is make his house look (and be) more secure than the house next door say.

I need to make his CCTV system visible (either 2 more cameras, 1 front, one back) or 2 dummy cameras (since his one now covers more than enough), new high front gate etc. etc.

I had considered a method of exit from the window. However, despite him still getting under cars with me at 86 or so and fixing/waxoiling etc. (I am not kidding....if I am that able at his age I will pleased as anything!) I think it would be more dangerous than not for him to try climbing out. The windows don't open enough (If i remember correctly) for an average person to get out of (though I may be wrong). Also there's a sloped roof outside of the window which may make it more difficult for him. Those ropes are great for certain people and windows however.

I am dead pleased how this is going! I really enjoy this because I feel I am doing some good at it's quite a challenge.

Bless!!!! It's good you are concerned about your Grandad. If he is hard of hearing there are alarms that have a flashing light which may be more helpful. As for the alarm around the neck, my 82 year old mother wears one, it's a round button on a string necklace basically. She pays about £10 a month at the Council office and the line is checked regularly by Careline and she simply has to push the button if she has any problem regarding her health or safety, they then notify the next of kin, emergency services etc. The only problem I foresee with having Fort Knox security devices is will he be arsed to use them all?

yeah you can get rope based ladders designed to go over sloped roofsas opposed to teh metal ones. but yeah you are right mobility is an issue and there is allways a risk of falling from ladder if he is not carefull.

i have kinda skim read these pages so if this has been said before sorry but. you can get smoke alarms with lights in that you can place so they illumnate the escape route when they go off.

Stuart DemonD said:

Maybe he meant 'vunerable' - why the capital letter? I can understand it being Venerable, if refering to an Archdeacon

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Well you never know do you...

Right, thanks to Andy I have just bought the Texecom speech and text dialler unit. I got it brand new but cheaper than the price quoted - we don't need the text function but it was cheaper than the none text version.



One problem I have is that since the talk through system will obviously only work close to that unit, texecom sell a RMU (remote microphone unit) but can't find one anywhere!

Since the alarm box only has two outputs other than the siren, speaker and strobe (all used) I don't see the point of having the smoke detectors wired in. This is because:

1) I find it difficult to find kit that would work with the alarm
2) If we went for this, the smoke detectors would probably have no alarm, if the alarm sounded my Grandpa might not hear it (anybody who has been in a house when the alarm has gone on, it's not always obvious it's yours even if you're fully awake!) So separate speakers/sirens would have to be fitted. Maplin had some great ones with stobes but they don't sell them anylong annoyingly! Also it would be hard to put them onto outputs and it would mean that the dialler would only have: "PA has been pressed" or "FIRE, BREAK IN OR FALSE ALARM" which defeats the purpose IMO and if there is a fire, not much point us knowing, best my grandpa knows best(!!!) and can get out then think about the fire brigade (who are 100m down the road although sadly it's one of the ones where they page the fireman, there's only a few who work their full time, I always hoped the few who work there full time would jump in, drive up, do what they can until everybody else arrives.)

So I think we're going for these interlinked wireless ionisation alarms:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20589&item=5970486983&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

It means no annoying wires everywhere and although not mains powered which is slightly annoying, I know that my grandpa would change the batteries. He doesn't mind paying the extra for an optical system, however, from what I can find, ionisation is only worse since it is more sensitive and open to more false alarms. Optical can miss small smoke particles. Any day of the week in a domestic use, false alarms are better than it missing small particles. Can anybody confirm this? I feel bad buying the cheaper version for the sake of £10 if it is better....(we're buying 3-4).

Since he already has a CCTV access system on the front door/drive (it covers the full front of his property except the extremes, front garage doors and front window though you have to pass the CCTV whatever you do to get to either!) I was looking at a dummy camera as you know which will be fixed to the side of the house and aimed down to where the hidden CCTV camera is pointed. Also addition of stickers. Would this be believed:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=66738&item=5970171283&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

Bidding for some excellent panic buttons. I believe maplin price is stupid £4 each, I am hoping to get these more sturdy units for £2 each and buy 4. Switching of these = alarm unit on, voice dialler input 1 on "PA has been pressed".

I know what pressure mat to get but need to get into the house first to check if it is a good idea and check what else I may have missed since it's all from memory of his house. Think I might stick a door sensor on the conservatory/garage-workshop door, 1) will mean he HAS to close and lock it when the alarm is set
2) Once he is in the conservatory he only has the rear PVC door between him and the criminal.

Still looking for gates.
Locks.
These are the hardest for me.

You need to wire the smoke alarms into the alarm panel, not direct to siren strobe etc. Most panels have a 24 hour watch zone and that's the place to connect it.

Maybe worth looking at a new panel if the existing one doesn't have the dialler interface and enough zones on it.

Andy

Sorry I probably haven't been clear.

Since the alarm box only has two outputs other than the siren, speaker and strobe (all used) I don't see the point of having the smoke detectors wired in since even if the smoke detectors sensed a fire, since the alarm panal only has 2 free outputs, 1 will be used for the personal attack output and the other for a break in. So there aren't enough outputs to have a separate output for PA, theft AND fire, so two would have to be combined. A bad idea IMO.

I find it difficult to find kit that would work with the alarm, none I have found work with 12v alarm systems? Only 24v fire systems?

2) If we went for this, the smoke detectors would probably have no alarm built in. If it triggered the alarm. my Grandpa might not hear it (anybody who has been in a house when the alarm has gone on, it's not always obvious it's yours even if you're fully awake!) So separate speakers/sirens would have to be fitted to the alarm panal, hence if triggered these will sound too. Also it would be hard to put them onto alarm panal outputs.

I know you wire them into the alarm box (if I could find the right equipment!) but since only the external alarm box would sound if there was a fire, i would need to also put some internal alarm sounders in.

His panal has 7 zones, 5 outputs (1xexternal siren, 1xstrobe, 1xinternal speaker, 2 x SAB which are going to be used for the dialler).

Is that better?

That makes sense, do you have the internal speaker fitted as these are pretty loud when the siren goes off. They are also pretty cheap, so may be worth adding if not fitted.

Andy

I think so? I assume it's the speaker/beeper that makes a noise on entry and exit? I think it goes off on the alarm sounding but my Grandfather's room isn't too close to the box and he has thick walls and doors. I could use the siren output (assuming it's not running at its maximum current) to put one siren downstairs and up internally though if these draw more than available it could damage the alarm or lower the volume of the external sounder.

I think integrating the fire system might be more hassle than it is worth TBH right now. If we spend £50 on smoke alarms now and in two years decide to change it then it won't be a great loss.