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Technical Prince of Darkness and Fiat

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Technical Prince of Darkness and Fiat

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Farrah

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Hi,

Well as owners of several British classics over the past 50 years we are well experienced with all the Princes (Joseph Lucas) jokes.

The last thing we ever expected though was to find Lucas bits on any of our Italian cars......

Well today Joseph came up with his jokes when we decided to change the rotors and disc pads so starting with the rear. We watched the youtube videos and figured half a day should see the rears complete...............:bang:

All was going well till the two bolts holding the caliper and yes it is a LUCAS......they are not 14mm hex as in the youtube video but allen head bolts. Smooth outer heads and no way enoughs space especially on the top one to get an allen key in without it fouling the main bracketry of the hub.

A lot of scratch heads and trying various vice grip tools just would not bite on the outer head. All afternoon and got nowhere.

Friendly mechanic is going to see if he can grind down an allen key to fit in the space but thoughts are perhaps the whole hub maybe easier to just remove.

So a lot of wasted time so far but anyone have an easy solution as there is not enough distance between the bolt head and bracketry to even remove the allen head bolt and replace with hex heads unless whole hub is removed.

So Joseph has had a laugh on us and I wonder where the service engineers were with the designers who came up with this stupid fitting.

Car is rear discs obviously 2010 1.4 16v sport.

Farrah
 
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Farrah said:
Hi,

Well as owners of several British classics over the past 50 years we are well experienced with all the Princes (Joseph Lucas) jokes.

The last thing we ever expected though was to find Lucas bits on any of our Italian cars......

Well today Joseph came up with his jokes when we decided to change the rotors and disc pads so starting with the rear. We watched the youtube videos and figured half a day should see the rears complete...............:bang:

All was going well till the two bolts holding the caliper and yes it is a LUCAS......they are not 14mm hex as in the youtube video but allen head bolts. Smooth outer heads and no way enoughs space especially on the top one to get an allen key in without it fouling the main bracketry of the hub.

A lot of scratch heads and trying various vice grip tools just would not bite on the outer head. All afternoon and got nowhere.

Friendly mechanic is going to see if he can grind down an allen key to fit in the space but thoughts are perhaps the whole hub maybe easier to just remove.

So a lot of wasted time so far but anyone have an easy solution as there is not enough distance between the bolt head and bracketry to even remove the allen head bolt and replace with hex heads unless whole hub is removed.

So Joseph has had a laugh on us and I wonder where the service engineers were with the designers who came up with this stupid fitting.

Car is rear discs obviously 2010 1.4 16v sport.

Farrah
Click to expand...
Very funny story (-:

https://youtu.be/9iDFWBVI_pM

That's good video of how to over come the problem. You are correct complete hub removed to access two allen head bolts.

What a fine price of design fitting those disc brakes to the 500 rear axle !
 
Last edited:
jackwhoo said:
Very funny story (-:

https://youtu.be/9iDFWBVI_pM

That's good video of how to over come the problem. You are correct complete hub removed to access two allen head bolts.

What a fine price of design fitting those disc brakes to the 500 rear axle !
Click to expand...

Thanks jackwhoo, I think next time I will forget researching and just come straight to ask on the forum.

Yes mine on the sport are exactly the same as the video you linked for the Abarth. I watched 3 different youtube video's on the 500 before starting and told the mechanic it would be a simple job.

The reason we did not just go and remove the hub bolts was because there is a third item on out hubs and it is not the brake wear sensor.

Going into the hub is a small thin cable looks more likely electric but as a front wheel drive we were not sure what it was and just how it fits.

We assume it is something to to with speed sensing or wheel rotation but appears one each side. Don't think we have ABS or traction control but assume it must be some form of anti skid sensor. Hopefully it is not mechanically attached so any advice here would help befor we loosen off those hub bolts.

Farrah
 
It is always worth doing your own research first (-: that way you find out lots of extra things .
Plus if you hadn't given such a good description of your problem I wouldn't have been able to find a good video of similar brake set up- I just got lucky in finding the video linked too.

I think the extra wire you have found is for a wheel speed sensor , there is likely same wire on car in video. Make as much free play in the wire as you can by freeing off clips holding the wire on car and follow video being carefully not to pull on wire.
 
Well here is the evidence in the picture that our famous Joseph 'Lucas' RiP made it onto Italian cars. This was the easy part to get off.


The videos I watched at first showed TRW in the castings but reading up most references are that the brake system is Bosch............very confusing.

The guy on jackwhoo's video link at least has good sound and not mumbling or overlaid with music. That said I would rather see he supported the caliper during the work and not straining the rubber brake hose.

Still strugling though to understand this design as it makes no sense why use an inaccessable allen bolt when a hex head would suit servicing easier.


The bolts are also those that carry the 'loctite' on the thread as do all the torx head seat bolts.

We have some 'loctite' for threads that states 'can be disassembled' but wondering whether to find some hexhead probably high tensile bolts to replace the allen heads.

One other query is....... there is a tool shown for pushing back the piston to allow for the thicker new pads.

This appears to turn the piston at the same time as pushing back so anyone know if the piston is on a helix type thread inside. I know our 308 rear brakes have this type of helix inside but these have an 'o' ring sealed bolt on the outside of the caliper to turn back the piston.............believed actually to be front ones from a Lancia model that were used.

Farrah
 

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varesecrazy said:
Disc handbrakes do require 'winding' back in..

As you say its a helix...a thread ;)

SOME are handed.. left hand thread..

One thread on LHS opposite on RHS

Hopefully somebody can clear that up..

Long time since Ive done that job..
Alfa 156TS IIRC
Click to expand...

OK we are going to borrow the tool from the local garage. Just as an update on removing the caliper slave bolts. Access can just be gained to the lower one with an allen key. It is a loctite thread so used one with a long arm but still needed a tube over but it did turn. We had put lots of release oil on yesterday so probably penetrated overnight. Top one no possibility so we tapped 'lightly' the bottom of the slave casting with a thor hide mallet which was just enough to loosen up things then got a special tool as pictured over the allen round head. OK it worked and saved undoing whole hub at rear.

That said once discs were removed it is obvious we have a bad bearing on the drivers side rear RHD. There are two bearings inside the hub and it is the inner one with the grease/water seal where obviously damp and grit has got in.

I will start a new thread as can't work out how the speed sensor ring and bearings come out/off so got to look into that now.

Please look for my post on fitting new rear wheel bearings with speed sensor ring.

This is picture of the tools we used for removing top allen bolt.

Farrah
 

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