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Technical Timing Belt Change?

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Technical Timing Belt Change?

PsFiat

PsFiat

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Hello Fiatistas,
I have a 2014 500s, manual with a 1.4 engine.
Mileage: about 17,000 miles (28,000 kms)

After a recent service, the advisor told me that at 4 years, regardless of mileage I’ll need the timing belt changed ... it is specified service item at 4 years, and I have confirmed this- pricey too.

Just curious what others think, seems to be very low mileage, and 4 years isn’t all that long a time. I’m considering putting it off for 6-12 months.
 
Belts tend to "go" with age because the rubber dries out and becomes cracked, so have a peek at your belt.

If it looks supple, black and satin-sheened (like "new tyres", rather than "covered in leaking engine oil" :D) and without cracking at the base of the teeth and particularly no longituninal cracks along the belt... :eek: then it's in good condition and you can leave it.

Higher miles sees the teeth become worn and rounded as well as tramlines forming in the back of the belt where the rollers act on it.. and you get the cracking as above. If your belt looks similarly worn, compressed or marked then change it.

The 1.2 engine is a "non-interference" engine, so the valves don't protrude into the piston's space, so won't get whacked/destroyed if the belt snaps... but I don't know whether the 1.4 is or not. If it's NOT an non-interferance engine, then don't take too many liberties with the belt; compared to the cost of a new engine they're not bad value.

Ralf S.
 
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Ralf S. said:
Belts tend to "go" with age because the rubber dries out and becomes cracked, so have a peek at your belt.

If it looks supple, black and satin-sheened (like "new tyres", rather than "covered in leaking engine oil" :D) and without cracking at the base of the teeth and particularly no longituninal cracks along the belt... :eek: then it's in good condition and you can leave it.

Higher miles sees the teeth become worn and rounded as well as tramlines forming in the back of the belt where the rollers act on it.. and you get the cracking as above. If your belt looks similarly worn, compressed or marked then change it.

The 1.2 engine is a "non-interference" engine, so the valves don't protrude into the piston's space, so won't get whacked/destroyed if the belt snaps... but I don't know whether the 1.4 is or not. If it's NOT an non-interferance engine, then don't take too many liberties with the belt; compared to the cost of a new engine they're not bad value.

Ralf S.
Click to expand...
Fyi the moden 1.2 is a interference engine since the euro 5 change
And this includes all fiat 500 engined cars


Also you don't know how long the car was sat around since it was built before before sold the belt it's self could be 6 months or more older then the reg of the car
 
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If it looks like the attached then replace it !

The service book stamp said "Cambelt changed" which just goes to show that service books only tell half the story.
 

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Thanks everyone... how easy is it to check out the belt?
 
Yes, as above.. any half-way decent mechanic can check the belt. It doesn't have to be a Fiat dealer. They will take the plastic cover off, on the left hand side of the engine and just visually inspect the top (back of the belt) and the teeth. Ideally they will turn the engine through a whole 360' cycle to examine the entire belt, rather than just form a general impression based on the parts they can see with the cover off.

You can see from wardpaa's photo that a very poor belt is quite easy to spot.. but a slightly poor belt is more tricky. I doubt your belt will be "worn".. it's more likely to be cracking, crazed or splitting longitudinally, so that's what the checker needs to look for.

The belt should be flexible and soft too, not just "not cracking.... etc" since a hard belt means it's aged/aging and I wouldn't fancy driving across the desert with that in there.. :D

But if you're from the cool, moist part of Orstrayler then the belt should still be in good shape, so don't be toooooo paranoid about it. If you change the belt, also change the tensioner.

I don't like binning good parts for nothing and I doubt that age will have affected your tensioner... but if you put a new belt in there and suddenly start doing 12,000 miles a year say, then in 3 years time your original tensioner would be 7 years old and have 53k on it which would be way past its rated mileage. Swapping it now will prevent the need to change the belt early just to change the tensioner.

Water pump is as above, also good practice for the same reason.... although I might be controversial and say you could leave the pump since in 3 years or 36k time it will only have done 53k and I've had OE pumps manage twice that mileage. I've also had a non-OE pump that failed precisely on that mileage, taking the cam-belt and cylinder head with it... Not nice! :D

Aux belt is the one part that is easily changeable any time and if it breaks it's unlikely (but not impossible) to do other damage... so you could leave that one.. but (you just knew it) of all the parts ^^ it's the cheapest, so it doesn't make sense not to change that too, if you're blowing a load of wedge on everything else.

Ralf S.

It's good practice to change the
 
Eklipze3k said:
The 1.4 is NOT a safe (non-interference) engine, if the schedule says change the belt then change the belt, like Ralf says - don't take liberties with things which could potentially ruin the entire engine.
Click to expand...
All depends how much of a gambler you are? I may be wrong but, as mentioned in this thread, all the later 8 valve engines are interference. I think also that the change came about with Euro5 and the easy way to tell if it's Euro5 (and you've got the top belt cover off) is to look at the camshaft sprocket. Is it's front face dished with "weight reducing" holes in it? Then it's Euro4 or earlier. If it's front face is a solid looking convex shaped cover ( like the one shown in the illustration above) then it's a Euro5 variator type.

There are many opinions held about timing belt failure. I have found it's as likely to be due to a failed component in the power train - water pump, idler or tensioner bearings or maybe just a failed oil seal - causing damage to the belt as it is to the belt itself breaking up. But I can promise you it won't matter a damn when you're sitting in the rain, at 2 o'clock in the morning on a motorway somewhere waiting for a breakdown wagon to turn up! Even breaking down in the middle of town, surrounded by double yellow lines and other impatient motorists, is quite unpleasant! So my take on all this is, change the belt (and ancillary components if they are part of that power train) at, or slightly before, the time/mileage recommended by the manufacturer.

Earlier this year I did the belts on both our Euro4 Panda and my Boy's Euro5 Punto. Purely out of interest I got quotes from a few places so I could compare prices (somewhere there's my, quite leangthy, post on this in the forum) it was interesting that both Fiat main dealers (same motor group though) came in much cheaper than my local independents! However when I started asking about the detail it turned out they were talking about the belt alone. When pressed further they said the pump would only be changed if needed and the price took off on overdrive! I think, on reflection, that the "desk person" had a menu in front of them which was showing a price for doing a belt and a price for doing a pump which did not take into account that, once you've got the thing stripped down to do the belt, there's only maybe an extra half hour involved to do the pump. All the independents said they would use a compete kit which includes the pump (as I would) and weren't actually very keen to do just the belt alone.

Googling the recommended mileage/time interval for these "FIRE" engines comes up with 4years or 72,000 miles with many recommending 4years or 48,000 miles - probably because the accepted average British annual mileage is 12,000! Neither my boy nor I myself exceed the 12,000 miles so it's every 4 years for us with the top cover removed at the annual service and the engine turned over 2× crank revs to check the belt for defects and a careful listen, with hearing aids finely tuned, for unusual noisey bearings (water pump/idler etc) with engine up to temp and running.
 
Having written the above I've just made a cup of tea and I'm thinking, when I was researching prior to buying my Ibiza (march 2016) it was reconned that the timing belt was a "lifetime component" whatever that means? But I take it to mean vehicle lifetime? I don't know, but maybe 10 years/100,000 miles? Bet the dealer won't recommended that though! I was interested also to note that the belt sprockets are not actually round!? What's that all about? All to do with reducing stress I believe.

When you look back at some of the recommended change intervals on the earliest belts, and how they rapidly revised those downwards, it's obvious that dramatic improvements have been made in the materials and design of the modern belt. I suspect that the belts alone are now capable of very high mileages but fail due to other uncontrollable factors. And just be glad we don't have belts which run fully submerged in oil. There are some very interesting and unexpected problems beginning to surface around them.
 
Pugglt Auld Jock said:
Having written the above I've just made a cup of tea and I'm thinking, when I was researching prior to buying my Ibiza (march 2016) it was reconned that the timing belt was a "lifetime component" whatever that means? But I take it to mean vehicle lifetime? I don't know, but maybe 10 years/100,000 miles? Bet the dealer won't recommended that though! I was interested also to note that the belt sprockets are not actually round!? What's that all about? All to do with reducing stress I believe.

When you look back at some of the recommended change intervals on the earliest belts, and how they rapidly revised those downwards, it's obvious that dramatic improvements have been made in the materials and design of the modern belt. I suspect that the belts alone are now capable of very high mileages but fail due to other uncontrollable factors. And just be glad we don't have belts which run fully submerged in oil. There are some very interesting and unexpected problems beginning to surface around them.
Click to expand...

Are those ford (i think) wet belts Heard a lot about garages fitting after market chain kits to those when they are changed likely because of issues with the design as you got a lot of the work of changing a chain but having to do them every few years
 
chris3234 said:
Are those ford (i think) wet belts Heard a lot about garages fitting after market chain kits to those when they are changed likely because of issues with the design as you got a lot of the work of changing a chain but having to do them every few years
Click to expand...
In all fairness I should say that I have no first hand experience of this but there is quite a bit on the net about it and even some quite authoritative stuff in the way of official press type articles.

The problem I've picked up on in particular with these "run in oil" belts seems to be that as the belt ages minute particles of belt fibre and, possibly even bigger "bits" are shed from the belt, travel round in the oil and block, or more often, reduce oil flow to the pump by contaminating the pick up strainer! This is, of course, not at all good for the long term prospects of the engine. I have read that the 1.8 diesel is particularly vulnerable as it's pickup is close to the belt? On this engine it's a simple "bolt on" option to change back to the previous chain set up and many motor factors seem to now supply just such a kit?

From what I'm reading there is a very small fuel consumption saving and noise reduction from using this technology but, although it was at first thought that the belt would be a lifetime fitment, it seems that at least one change will be needed during the vehicles life. I don't know if the option to revert to a chain on the later EcoBoost engines is viable? But then those who own them are probably more preoccupied with the widely publicised overheating problems to worry about timing belts!

Anyone on here who is a Ford enthusiast and might be able to inform us in more detail, or correct me if I've misunderstood some of the stuff I've been reading (knowing how notorious the web is for misinformation)?
 
Pugglt Auld Jock said:
In all fairness I should say that I have no first hand experience of this but there is quite a bit on the net about it and even some quite authoritative stuff in the way of official press type articles.

The problem I've picked up on in particular with these "run in oil" belts seems to be that as the belt ages minute particles of belt fibre and, possibly even bigger "bits" are shed from the belt, travel round in the oil and block, or more often, reduce oil flow to the pump by contaminating the pick up strainer! This is, of course, not at all good for the long term prospects of the engine. I have read that the 1.8 diesel is particularly vulnerable as it's pickup is close to the belt? On this engine it's a simple "bolt on" option to change back to the previous chain set up and many motor factors seem to now supply just such a kit?

From what I'm reading there is a very small fuel consumption saving and noise reduction from using this technology but, although it was at first thought that the belt would be a lifetime fitment, it seems that at least one change will be needed during the vehicles life. I don't know if the option to revert to a chain on the later EcoBoost engines is viable? But then those who own them are probably more preoccupied with the widely publicised overheating problems to worry about timing belts!

Anyone on here who is a Ford enthusiast and might be able to inform us in more detail, or correct me if I've misunderstood some of the stuff I've been reading (knowing how notorious the web is for misinformation)?
Click to expand...
Also believe from stuff I've heard that like the multiair /uniair module they can be sensitive to the correct oil as different one can affect the belt e.g absorb more oil then they should and weaken the belt
 
chris3234 said:
Also believe from stuff I've heard that like the multiair /uniair module they can be sensitive to the correct oil as different one can affect the belt e.g absorb more oil then they should and weaken the belt
Click to expand...
Aye, long gone are the days when you could put Duckhams Q25/50 or Castrol GTX in the sump of just about anything and be confident that you'd given it the very best (VW's excepted perhaps as their air cooled engines preferred a straight 30 weight non detergent brew). For the last 15 years or so it's been noticeable that the "family fleet" vehicles have become more and more oil specific. I suspect the latest direct injection generation of engines will be even more so with the problems they have, to varying degrees, with oil deposits burning onto the inlet ports and back of the inlet valves. Whilst the fact that no fuel is delivered into the inlet ports on these engines and thus cleansing compounds in the fuel cannot act on the ports and valves must be a large factor, the oil itself is now thought to be at the root of the problem. I see the American society of automotive engineers (SAE) now has added a "+" to the SN spec to start to address this and an SP spec should be following very shortly. I read that European spec oil is "cleaner" in this respect when compared to that available to our American cousins which maybe explains why we are not experiencing the dire symptoms some of the Yanks are having to endure. As of yet the European Automobile Manufacturers Association (Association des Constructeurs Europeans d'automobiles) - That's how you get ACEA - don't seem to be saying much that I can find on this yet, but I bet it's in the pipeline.

So - anyone with a direct injection petrol engine? Be very careful to use exactly the oil specified by the manufacturer and keep your eyes open for future info on oils which have been specifically developed to address this problem. Although not a believer in additives, and especially not oil additives, after many years of preaching to anyone who wanted to listen to use only top quality oils and fuels I am now adding Archoil AR6900-P MAX to every tank full in the hope it will slow the build up of deposits on the back of the inlet valves in my direct injection Ibiza. I'm somewhat sceptical as to their claims as I don't fully understand how it influences the inlet tract but I'm going to give it a go and as it also has lubricating properties it may help the "ultra high pressure" fuel pump and expensive injectors to survive. Unless a problem arises early I will be removing the inlet manifold at 30,000 miles and having a look see. Should be interesting! If you're wondering about the Archoil stuff you can find info on the Powerenhancer website.

Anyone interested in this sort of stuff? There is a fascinating site to look at, just Google OILEM. "TFSI direct injection carbon" is the heading to click on. There's also lots of other very interesting stuff. There are also a number of videos on you tube which demonstrate the problem and show how "mucky" it is to deal with.

I should probably declare that I have no connection, other than having made purchases, with the above.

I can also add to my knowledge base that "wet" timing belts are another factor to be considered when selecting motor oil!
 
Pugglt Auld Jock said:
Aye, long gone are the days when you could put Duckhams Q25/50 or Castrol GTX in the sump of just about anything and be confident that you'd given it the very best (VW's excepted perhaps as their air cooled engines preferred a straight 30 weight non detergent brew). For the last 15 years or so it's been noticeable that the "family fleet" vehicles have become more and more oil specific. I suspect the latest direct injection generation of engines will be even more so with the problems they have, to varying degrees, with oil deposits burning onto the inlet ports and back of the inlet valves. Whilst the fact that no fuel is delivered into the inlet ports on these engines and thus cleansing compounds in the fuel cannot act on the ports and valves must be a large factor, the oil itself is now thought to be at the root of the problem. I see the American society of automotive engineers (SAE) now has added a "+" to the SN spec to start to address this and an SP spec should be following very shortly. I read that European spec oil is "cleaner" in this respect when compared to that available to our American cousins which maybe explains why we are not experiencing the dire symptoms some of the Yanks are having to endure. As of yet the European Automobile Manufacturers Association (Association des Constructeurs Europeans d'automobiles) - That's how you get ACEA - don't seem to be saying much that I can find on this yet, but I bet it's in the pipeline.

So - anyone with a direct injection petrol engine? Be very careful to use exactly the oil specified by the manufacturer and keep your eyes open for future info on oils which have been specifically developed to address this problem. Although not a believer in additives, and especially not oil additives, after many years of preaching to anyone who wanted to listen to use only top quality oils and fuels I am now adding Archoil AR6900-P MAX to every tank full in the hope it will slow the build up of deposits on the back of the inlet valves in my direct injection Ibiza. I'm somewhat sceptical as to their claims as I don't fully understand how it influences the inlet tract but I'm going to give it a go and as it also has lubricating properties it may help the "ultra high pressure" fuel pump and expensive injectors to survive. Unless a problem arises early I will be removing the inlet manifold at 30,000 miles and having a look see. Should be interesting! If you're wondering about the Archoil stuff you can find info on the Powerenhancer website.

Anyone interested in this sort of stuff? There is a fascinating site to look at, just Google OILEM. "TFSI direct injection carbon" is the heading to click on. There's also lots of other very interesting stuff. There are also a number of videos on you tube which demonstrate the problem and show how "mucky" it is to deal with.

I should probably declare that I have no connection, other than having made purchases, with the above.

I can also add to my knowledge base that "wet" timing belts are another factor to be considered when selecting motor oil!
Click to expand...
Duckhams Q25/50? Of course the revered "green stuff" was, in fact, Q20/50! Sorry.
 
Fascinating to hear all these opinions/ ideas- thanks !
I’m going to book the car in for the belt etc change early in the new year, current barely driving 500kms (300 miles) a month... I think it’s cheap insurance....
 
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