Technical The one and only Dualogic failure thread

[p6baseunit]

so is this mean that i have a leaking actuator or accumulator? is there anyway to check that using MES?

And the Gear selector issue. Really appreciate if anyone can tell me a place to buy that part (7354332560) brand new or at least a used one. found only one used item on ebay.

If the actuator has a leak, it should have oil down the side of the gearbox etc... MES is just telling you about a pressure issue only

The accumulator is there to store pressure built up by the pump, so that the pump doesn´t need to run to often. I don´t know the inside of this particular fiat accumulator, but in general they have a diaphragm inside that fails (imagine this diaphragm in the mileage you are talking about may have moved backwards and forwards a million times!).

If you donated to the forum you have access to the 10% discount code for Shop4Parts in the member´s area. They should be able to order the part (Gear Selector or just the switch - I don´t know for the punto etc) within a couple of days

Do confirm with them that is the correct part number though..
Failing that from a Fiat Dealer

 

[BobLeeSwagger]

If the actuator has a leak, it should have oil down the side of the gearbox etc... MES is just telling you about a pressure issue only

The accumulator is there to store pressure built up by the pump, so that the pump doesn´t need to run to often. I don´t know the inside of this particular fiat accumulator, but in general they have a diaphragm inside that fails (imagine this diaphragm in the mileage you are talking about may have moved backwards and forwards a million times!).

If you donated to the forum you have access to the 10% discount code for Shop4Parts in the member´s area. They should be able to order the part (Gear Selector or just the switch - I don´t know for the punto etc) within a couple of days

Do confirm with them that is the correct part number though..
Failing that from a Fiat Dealer

I checked the Gearbox today an there is no visible oil leak. also the oil level seems okay.
so i'm assuming the accumulator/selespeed vessel is shot as you suggested it was never changed for this 10 years.

I listened to the electric pump closely today with MES opened, when i open the drivers door pump activated about 10 seconds. pressure came up to 48 bar. after 10 mins it dropped to 40bar and pump started again around 39bar for 3,4 seconds. and it went up to 50 bar. but dropped to 48 bar very quickly. within 30 seconds or so.
I drove 2,3 km and i can hear the pump running every 2,3 mins. so thinking its the accumulator.

Thanks for the 10% discount tip mate. didn't know that.
going to buy both parts( vessel and selector).. hope it will fix the issue.

 

[p6baseunit]

The pump will run often... but not all the time
Generally every 5th gear change for example and will cut in occasionally if you are stationary waiting at lights. It shouldn´t be running the whole time you are in neutral.
The accumulator is there to store pressure built up by the pump and to smooth this out. So I am guessing your one is tired and the error message is due to the spikes and lows.
If you leave the car for 30mins and come back, the pump will only need to run for 3-5 secs on a new system.

 

[BobLeeSwagger]

The pump will run often... but not all the time
Generally every 5th gear change for example and will cut in occasionally if you are stationary waiting at lights. It shouldn´t be running the whole time you are in neutral.
The accumulator is there to store pressure built up by the pump and to smooth this out. So I am guessing your one is tired and the error message is due to the spikes and lows.
If you leave the car for 30mins and come back, the pump will only need to run for 3-5 secs on a new system.

Thanks for the clarification p6baseunit,

I checked the selespeed oil level (waited overnight) and its little bit under the min mark. (pics attached) also found a small oil leak from the position sensor.
Think this can also be a reason for sudden neutrals.

Anyone know a place to buy the o rings/oil seals for this unit?
found some items on ebay and they are way expensive.

 

[p6baseunit]

Anyone know a place to buy the o rings/oil seals for this unit?
found some items on ebay and they are way expensive.

Fiat sell no service parts for the unit at all. The seals need to be resistant to heat and oil. Outside of a brand new gearbox control unit, eBay is your best bet. If you plan on keeping the car a while... perhaps the complete reconditioned unit from eBay... rather than expensive seals, then an accumulator and possibly a pump later (the brushes wear) etc.

 

[p6baseunit]

I checked the selespeed oil level (waited overnight) and its little bit under the min mark. (pics attached) also found a small oil leak from the position sensor.
Think this can also be a reason for sudden neutrals.

Yes this could be the reason, but so could the gear selector (as before, pressure issues and the unit drops into neutral - but it doesn’t wait until you press the brake etc)

The system needs to be completely depressurised to get the level correctly.
Do this from the software or unplug the motor and select random gears with the ignition on etc.
You may find that the leak is so small that topping up gives you months of driving without issues - trying to be realistic on the mileage and value of the vehicle etc

I suspect that the pump is still running too long, for what probably is a tiny leak.... so que tired accumulator and then much later a worn pump

 

[Amber28]

Hello, I don't know whether anyone can help: I have a Fiat 500 dualogic (2013). I've done approx. 32,000 miles. As I was driving the other evening, I approached a roundabout and the car slowed right down as though driving through treacle - all the warning lights came on and it said 'Please see handbook'. I re-started it some time after and it has since been fine. It has no error codes. It has today passed its MOT with no issues. I've taken it out twice since the incident and it's driven OK, although it does seem to struggle to move up through the gears somewhat (or maybe I'm hypersensitive to any slight changes now as I worry it'll happen again) Any ideas or advice on what I ought to do? So far, the advice of mechanics has been to just press on and drive it, which I'm apprehensive about. I really love my car and don't want to sell it. Thanks in advance for your time.

 

[p6baseunit]

Hello, I don't know whether anyone can help: I have a Fiat 500 dualogic (2013). I've done approx. 32,000 miles. As I was driving the other evening, I approached a roundabout and the car slowed right down as though driving through treacle - all the warning lights came on and it said 'Please see handbook'. I re-started it some time after and it has since been fine. It has no error codes.

This doesn’t really sound like a gearbox issue... Your car has a manual gearbox with a robotic control... if the car is down on power then the issue lies most likely else where.

 

[jrkitching]

This doesn’t really sound like a gearbox issue... Your car has a manual gearbox with a robotic control... if the car is down on power then the issue lies most likely else where.

I'd agree - it sounds like the engine went into limp mode for some reason. Unless it happens again, I wouldn't be unduly concerned; if it does, then it's time to get the error codes read (but it still likely won't be a gearbox issue).

 

[SteveFiat500]

Hey guys, ive been reading through this forum for a while now but just managed to register. Great job to all trying to help with any issues people are having with their Fiats.

My wife has a 2013 Fiat 500 Sport with just 30.000klms on it. We moved to Australia from Europe where these cars are very popular and bought it second hand with 10.000klms and it has been a great little car for the past 2 years.

BUT, i have been driving it on a daily basis lately for the past 3 months due to not having a company car anymore and it has developed a problem. Not sure if my driving style has contributed to this but sometimes on a downhill or uphill when in AUTO and in FIFTH gear it will drop into Neutral when trying to downshift to 4th. I decided to drive it for a while in manual mode and the car is fine, have done over 500klms in manual mode and it has not missed a beat. No warning lights or error codes have come up at all.

Here in Australia as you might know from other members dealer service and mechanics in general just want to take your money, and a lot of it. I went to the fiat dealer here and they just told me to leave the car there and come back after a week to tell me what the problem is and how it can be fixed.

The local mechanic that we take the car to has no idea, and he is only just good enough maybe for oil changes and brake pads so no luck there.

I have previous experience with repairing cars my self so i have decided to have a look at the actuator oil/fluid my self and to top it up if it is low. It doesn't seem like a big job so i purchased the Tatela oil from Fiat and just waiting for the weekend to have a go at it. Now i know this is probably the start of many headaches to come so we have decided to sell the car and get something else. Now as i mentioned in the beginning this issue only happens when the car is in AUTO mode and not in MANUAL mode, at least not yet.

I have owned a couple of cars in my life and i think that the duallogic is probably the most stupid auto or semi auto transmission probably ever made.

When its not in SPORT mode the accelerator needs to be floored for the car to get moving and when changing gears its almost like the car brakes first and then changes gears. Many times when stopped at traffic lights, when accelerating (not aggressively) when changing from 1st to 2nd the car behind has almost hit me from behind due to this issue.

When in SPORT mode, the car just revs too high as if its a ferrari and stupidly changing gears as if its on a race track. Not sure if this is normal but defiantly very annoying. My wife has been complaining about the NORMAL mode since day 1 and thats why she always drove it in SPORT mode.

When i manage to have a look at the actuator oil/fluid level i will post an update and some pics also.

Any help or advice will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

 

[p6baseunit]

Hey guys, ive been reading through this forum for a while now but just managed to register. Great job to all trying to help with any issues people are having with their Fiats.

My wife has a 2013 Fiat 500 Sport with just 30.000klms on it. We moved to Australia from Europe where these cars are very popular and bought it second hand with 10.000klms and it has been a great little car for the past 2 years.

BUT, i have been driving it on a daily basis lately for the past 3 months due to not having a company car anymore and it has developed a problem. Not sure if my driving style has contributed to this but sometimes on a downhill or uphill when in AUTO and in FIFTH gear it will drop into Neutral when trying to downshift to 4th. I decided to drive it for a while in manual mode and the car is fine, have done over 500klms in manual mode and it has not missed a beat. No warning lights or error codes have come up at all.

Here in Australia as you might know from other members dealer service and mechanics in general just want to take your money, and a lot of it. I went to the fiat dealer here and they just told me to leave the car there and come back after a week to tell me what the problem is and how it can be fixed.

The local mechanic that we take the car to has no idea, and he is only just good enough maybe for oil changes and brake pads so no luck there.

I have previous experience with repairing cars my self so i have decided to have a look at the actuator oil/fluid my self and to top it up if it is low. It doesn't seem like a big job so i purchased the Tatela oil from Fiat and just waiting for the weekend to have a go at it. Now i know this is probably the start of many headaches to come so we have decided to sell the car and get something else. > Now as i mentioned in the beginning this issue only happens when the car is in AUTO mode and not in MANUAL mode, at least not yet. < Generally Selespeed faults when the unit is failing are reasonably consistent. So if the car drives faultlessly in manual mode for hundreds of miles, then this car probably only needs a main dealer software update! Check to see if there are any leaks from the actuator, but you can´t check the fluid reliably without completely depressurised it to get the correct level.

I have owned a couple of cars in my life and i think that the duallogic is probably the most stupid auto or semi auto transmission probably ever made. > OK so generally no automatic transmission is going to be as reliable as the manual versions. These type of robotic gear changes offer the best solution for a small automatic car that needs the best fuel economy and emissions rating. The car is designed in Europe, where this is very important.
Fiat/Alfa are one of the manufactures that have been working on these systems the longest. This single clutch system is one of the smoothest (although I am aware that individual cars seem to differ), compared to the Smart car systems it needs no general adjustment or service for the life of the clutch. Compared to the VW DSG type auto box the selespeed/Dualogic system, although isn´t as smooth is much cheaper to fix when it goes wrong!

When its not in SPORT mode the accelerator needs to be floored for the car to get moving and when changing gears its almost like the car brakes first and then changes gears. Many times when stopped at traffic lights, when accelerating (not aggressively) when changing from 1st to 2nd the car behind has almost hit me from behind due to this issue.

When in SPORT mode, the car just revs too high as if its a ferrari and stupidly changing gears as if its on a race track. Not sure if this is normal but defiantly very annoying. My wife has been complaining about the NORMAL mode since day 1 and thats why she always drove it in SPORT mode.

This may be characteristic of the 1.4l engine and the Dualogic set up, I don´t know.. These engines were dropped in Europe once the TwinAir arrived on the scene. The TwinAir Dualogic doesn´t behave like this and the lighter the pressure on the accelerator pedal and the quicker the system changes up! It may be that a later software update changes this? But if the car has never been seen by fiat for servicing, it will have missed any updates!

When i manage to have a look at the actuator oil/fluid level i will post an update and some pics also. > Check for leaks only! Do not add oil unless you have the MultiECUscan software to do this properly

Any help or advice will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

You need a copy of MultiECUscan (easily downloaded once the license has been purchased) and the leads to check the errors and depressurise the system. I don´t have the laptop with my copy of the software to hand, but you may find that simply resetting the Selespeed functions if there are no errors cures the issue.

For example the ABS on my late 2013 car has never functioned. Using the software I reset it and tested all of the ABS device functions via the software and now it works fine!

 

[p6baseunit]

My wife has a 2013 Fiat 500 Sport with just 30.000klms on it. We moved to Australia from Europe where these cars are very popular and bought it second hand with 10.000klms and it has been a great little car for the past 2 years.

Now i know this is probably the start of many headaches to come so we have decided to sell the car and get something else.

Any help or advice will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

The actuator is expensive in OZ if it is leaking, but can be sourced in Europe for a fraction of the cost.
If the actuator isn´t leaking then the fix may be straight forward - depends on your local dealer!
Your really need the software to check on the error codes!
Although if you have decided to sell the car, all of this is a bit pointless.

 

[SteveFiat500]

The actuator is expensive in OZ if it is leaking, but can be sourced in Europe for a fraction of the cost.
If the actuator isn´t leaking then the fix may be straight forward - depends on your local dealer!
Your really need the software to check on the error codes!
Although if you have decided to sell the car, all of this is a bit pointless.

Thank you very much for your detailed reply, i really appreciate it.
I've looked into the Multiecuscan software and will probably be purchasing it but which interface should i buy and from where?

The car is driving fairly well in Manual mode apart from yesterday morning where i was in the car with my wife going uphill in 4th and she slowed down and instead of downshifting to 3rd she shifted into 5th making the rpms go below 1500rpm. When she pressed the minus paddle it was like the car got confused and went into neutral. Had to push the leaver up a few times to get it back into gear so something very strange is happening.

I understand it could be 100 things that are wrong and until it is properly inspected there is no way to find out what it is. The problem is i'm going overseas in 2 weeks and don't want the car to break down on her while i'm away so i'm considering of buying another car until we get this sorted out or sold. So unfortunately i don't have much time to deal with this at the moment.

As you said earlier about the software update, i does seem like a software issue as if it was something else i guess this problem would of come up all the time even in manual mode. The FIAT dealer wants us to take the car to them and leave it there until they find out what it is. Our mechanic has no clue and to be honest i don't trust either of them to get this sorted out and fixed. This is very unfortunate as i have never experienced car problems like this before and will defiantly not be buying a fiat again, at least not an automatic with this gearbox.

I'll be going to europe in a couple of weeks and thought of sourcing out any parts that might be needed and sending them back here. BUT, the question is what does the car need? Anyway, will keep you updated if we have any progress on this. Thank you very much for your help.

 

[p6baseunit]

Thank you very much for your detailed reply, i really appreciate it.
I've looked into the Multiecuscan software and will probably be purchasing it but which interface should i buy and from where?

For example this is what you need, but where you would get that in Australia, I don´t know.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00A2B476K/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

The car is driving fairly well in Manual mode apart from yesterday morning where i was in the car with my wife going uphill in 4th and she slowed down and instead of downshifting to 3rd she shifted into 5th making the rpms go below 1500rpm. When she pressed the minus paddle it was like the car got confused and went into neutral. Had to push the leaver up a few times to get it back into gear so something very strange is happening.

Normally if the actuator was leaking and causing a pressure issue, the car drops into Neutral and you have to stop and restart the car to have any hope of continuing! So the fact that you can just reselect the correct gear, suggests this isn´t the usual issue.

As you said earlier about the software update, i does seem like a software issue as if it was something else i guess this problem would of come up all the time even in manual mode. The FIAT dealer wants us to take the car to them and leave it there until they find out what it is. Our mechanic has no clue and to be honest i don't trust either of them to get this sorted out and fixed. This is very unfortunate as i have never experienced car problems like this before and will defiantly not be buying a fiat again, at least not an automatic with this gearbox.

All cars give trouble at some point, which is why us British have become obsessed with buying cars on personal lease plans and replacing them every 3 or 4 years. Here in Europe Fiat have an average reliability rating which is the same as some of the far eastern manufactures and better than Mercedes for example. Fiat own Chrysler, Jeep and Alfa so they are not a small company.

Difficult to tell without connecting to a computer

 

[ausabarth]

I recently experienced a failure and replacement of the dualogic selespeed actuator on my 2012 Abarth 500 which only had 33000km's.

As my car was out of warranty, I have incurred a significant cost to have it replaced. I have been told that this should never occur on a car with such low mileage and I am pursuing Fiat Chrysler Australia through a Tribunal hearing to recover these costs.

I am interested in understanding how widespread this problem is and if anyone else has had a similar issue?

Any help would be much appreciated?

 

[jrkitching]

I recently experienced a failure and replacement of the dualogic selespeed actuator on my 2012 Abarth 500 which only had 33000km's.

As my car was out of warranty, I have incurred a significant cost to have it replaced. I have been told that this should never occur on a car with such low mileage and I am pursuing Fiat Chrysler Australia through a Tribunal hearing to recover these costs.

I am interested in understanding how widespread this problem is and if anyone else has had a similar issue?

Any help would be much appreciated?

Condolences; this isn't a nice problem to have and the cost of fixing it in Australia appears to be at least twice what it would cost in Europe. Some of your fellow countrymen have actually ordered parts in the UK and had them shipped over.

Have a read through this thread; you'll at least gain an understanding of the problem.

I've no knowledge of Australian consumer law so have no idea on how easy it will be to force action against Fiat Australia if they don't make a goodwill contribution. In the UK, given that your car is six years old, I'd say you'd get a better return on your time to just put it behind you and move on.

Out of interest, have you owned the car from new?

 

[ausabarth]

Condolences; this isn't a nice problem to have and the cost of fixing it in Australia appears to be at least twice what it would cost in Europe. Some of your fellow countrymen have actually ordered parts in the UK and had them shipped over.

Have a read through this thread; you'll at least gain an understanding of the problem.

I've no knowledge of Australian consumer law so have no idea on how easy it will be to force action against Fiat Australia if they don't make a goodwill contribution. In the UK, given that your car is six years old, I'd say you'd get a better return on your time to just put it behind you and move on.

Out of interest, have you owned the car from new?

Thank you Jrkitching for your feedback.

I bought the car in late 2014 (it was first registered in March 2013)

While out of warranty, Australian consumer law stipulates that regardless of the warranty, a product must deliver on the service it was intended to. Failure of the actuator on a car that has done 33000km's seems to be a breach of this.

Fiat Australia have offered some goodwill but are still leaving me $4000 out of pocket. It is clear from the pure volume of posts that there is an inherent flaw with the dualogic actuator and I am surprised there has not been a mandatory recall to fix.

 

[p6baseunit]

I am interested in understanding how widespread this problem is and if anyone else has had a similar issue?

Any help would be much appreciated?

It is clear from the pure volume of posts that there is an inherent flaw with the dualogic actuator and I am surprised there has not been a mandatory recall to fix

OK so there is a lot of discussion on here about the Dualogic/Selespeed system and it is up to 32pages.

Having been through the pages, i make a guess and say that there are probably 2 complaints of failure per page on average. So perhaps 64 failures, a little more or a little less.. You could count them to be precise, that is my estimate.

Generally people if they are not enthusiasts only seek out a forum if they have an issue.
This forum is popular with the British and Australians, there have been one or two posts on here from further a field in Europe, but most of the complaints on here are from the UK with a handful from OZ.

Statistically, 257794 500s have been sold in the UK up to the end March 2016. Fiat roughly sell 5-6% of these cars as Automatic. This would suggest that something in the region of 13000 dualogic 500s have been sold in total in the UK.... This doesn't include the Dualogic Pandas, Puntos etc

So unfortunately the possible 64 complaints on a forum, don't really in the grand scheme of things equal a product recall.

The Fiat Alfa specialist that I used to use regularly in North London when I lived there (remember also that Alfa use the Selespeed system a lot) said to me that generally the Fiat dualogic system is very reliable, but a small number of people have issues with it.

The main problem that I see, is that there are no service parts available for the control module(Actuator/Pump) other than complete replacement units.
The control module is a hydraulic operated unit, bolted onto what is a manual gearbox and it is not unreasonable for that hydraulic unit to need servicing within a six year period!
The problem being that Fiat supply no service kits and the main dealers have very little experience in the system. So the cheapest replacements complete units available are in the UK, £1000 for the 500 Dualogic and £1300 for the Abarth Selespeed MTA system.

 

[jrkitching]

The main problem that I see, is that there are no service parts available for the control module(Actuator/Pump) other than complete replacement units.
The control module is a hydraulic operated unit, bolted onto what is a manual gearbox and it is not unreasonable for that hydraulic unit to need servicing within a six year period!
The problem being that Fiat supply no service kits and the main dealers have very little experience in the system. So the cheapest replacements complete units available are in the UK, £1000 for the 500 Dualogic and £1300 for the Abarth Selespeed MTA system.

I'd say that's a pretty good summary. Hydraulic seals in particular are life limited and that life is both time and usage dependent. Not being able to easily source a service kit for the control module turns what should be a minor overhaul into an expensive component replacement.

I'd agree it's not a common fault, but for those who are unfortunate enough to encounter it, it's both serious and expensive.

In some ways it might be better if the failure rate was actually greater, as that would likely encourage the aftermarket to provide service kits and remanufactured parts.

Seals generally benefit from being regularly exercised (it's why running the A/C at least once weekly is recommended); long periods of being left standing can cause them to take a permanent set and fail prematurely, so the combination of low mileage and an older car may be a factor in this latest case.

 

[p6baseunit]

I'd say that's a pretty good summary. Hydraulic seals in particular are life limited and that life is both time and usage dependent. Not being able to easily source a service kit for the control module turns what should be a minor overhaul into an expensive component replacement.

I'd agree it's not a common fault, but for those who are unfortunate enough to encounter it, it's both serious and expensive.

I totally get that... it's worse for the second or third owner, who might have paid £6000 for their car and then get a £1800 repair bill!

It's worth noting at this point that there are at least 2 engineers with a Fiat background offering overhauled complete control modules on eBay for around £400. From what I could see the feedback is good and one of them is also able to fit the unit also.