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Old 18-07-2017   #346
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Quote Originally Posted by p6baseunit View Post
You have a Fiat / Alfa specialist garage near you - http://www.mclennansgarage.com/fiat/
They come recommended from the Alfa forum I notice and if they are used to the selespeed autobox actuators on the Alfa's they shouldn't have too much issue with your Fiat Dualogic box, which is basically very similar.

Then assuming the actuator isn't leaking oil it could be that the pump is no longer able to keep the pressure up.

The bottom line is the pump is available from Shop4parts at 420 + vat or the actuator is 632 + vat delivered next day anywhere in the UK or for a few extra pounds anywhere in the world. Any half decent mechanic or experienced DIYer with some Fiat/Alfa experience and access to MultiECUscan + a couple of litres of TUTELA CS SPEED oil should be able to sort this out in 2-3hours once they have the parts to hand.

Generally the Dualogic box does seem to begin to cause some trouble around the 5-7 year mark - but if you are clever and source the parts yourself as above (once the diagnoses has been done) and get a Fiat/Alfa specialist to fit them then the gearbox should be trouble free for some time.

Automatic gearboxes are generally not as reliable as their manual counterparts - I was recently fleeced for thousands to fix the autobox on a Honda CRV at 5 years, so this isn't a Fiat issue per say and a dualogic replacement is much cheaper than the 4000+ that Honda had off me.

Unfortunately Fiat don't provide any service items for these hydraulic (dualogic) units and then dealers will replace the whole units after much mucking around which shows they don't have much experience with the dualogic set up.
Instead of spending 500 pounds on an old unit, why not spend 1000 and get a 2 year Fiat manufacturer warranty with it? I find that much more reliable.

The Tutela CS level is about 0.8 lt if I remember correctly.
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Old 18-07-2017   #347
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Quote Originally Posted by ahmett View Post
Instead of spending 500 pounds on an old unit, why not spend 1000 and get a 2 year Fiat manufacturer warranty with it? I find that much more reliable.

The Tutela CS level is about 0.8 lt if I remember correctly.
You would only get a 2 year Fiat warranty if you get Fiat to fit it! Which is then going around in circles since many of the people on this thread find Fiat too expensive.

According to that link for the recon unit, if you are in the UK and can get the car to the guy, he will fit it for 425!

As for the correct level - 1 ltr gives you little room for errors
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Old 18-07-2017   #348
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Quote Originally Posted by p6baseunit View Post
You would only get a 2 year Fiat warranty if you get Fiat to fit it! Which is then going around in circles since many of the people on this thread find Fiat too expensive.

According to that link for the recon unit, if you are in the UK and can get the car to the guy, he will fit it for 425!

As for the correct level - 1 ltr gives you little room for errors
Yes generally I find complaining to Fiat HQ gives you a 10% discount so had mine fitted and replaced for 1000 GBP!
If mine breaks again I will try for a bigger discount as a regular customer of Dualogic units!
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Old 18-07-2017   #349
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Quote Originally Posted by ahmett View Post
Yes generally I find complaining to Fiat HQ gives you a 10% discount so had mine fitted and replaced for 1000 GBP!
If mine breaks again I will try for a bigger discount as a regular customer of Dualogic units!
Fiat list the Actuator at over 1000 alone and the pump is near 600 + 60 per hour labour + Vat

On a 5-7 year old car good luck with that one
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Old 18-07-2017   #350
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Quote Originally Posted by p6baseunit View Post
Fiat list the Actuator at over 1000 alone and the pump is near 600 + 60 per hour labour + Vat

On a 5-7 year old car good luck with that one
No you are wrong, Fiat give the whole unit including pump and actuator for 1000 GBP.
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Old 18-07-2017   #351
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Quote Originally Posted by ahmett View Post
No you are wrong, Fiat give the whole unit including pump and actuator for 1000 GBP.
Fiat Watford quoted me 1800 in parts alone when i asked them!?
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Old 18-07-2017   #352
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Quote Originally Posted by p6baseunit View Post
Fiat Watford quoted me 1800 in parts alone when i asked them!?
Well they are being naughty. Take it up with Fiat UK.
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Old 18-07-2017   #353
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Quote Originally Posted by ahmett View Post
No you are wrong, Fiat give the whole unit including pump and actuator for 1000 GBP.
You had yours replaced by a Fiat dealer in the UK??
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Old 18-07-2017   #354
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Quote Originally Posted by p6baseunit View Post
You had yours replaced by a Fiat dealer in the UK??
No, in Greece with a Fiat main dealer, but I had gotten Fiat HQ involved. Another main Fiat dealer in Greece quoted 2000 EUR+, but I did not use them. It's best to shop around many Fiat dealers, the price differences between dealers are very surprising!
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Old 26-07-2017   #355
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The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Hi. I'm new to this site - my wife owns a FIAT 500 1.2 Lounge Dualogic, registered in late 2012, and has done about 24000 miles. There is a flashing light on the dash indicating a gearbox fault. I have taken it to a local mechanic who has a diagnostic tool. I can't remember the fault code (it may have been PO730), but is says "Clutch Disc Speed Sensor". The fault code was cancelled, but the light came on again a week later. The gearbox will then only select 3 forward gears and reverse. My question is: is it likely that it is just the sensor that is faulty? When driving with the diagnostic tool connected to the car, the clutch disc speed seems to be the same as the engine speed, except when the gear is changing. If it is the sensor - where is it? Is it an external sensor which can be changed easily? Any help would be appreciated.
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Old 27-07-2017   #356
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Hello and welcome to the forum .

Sorry it's in such sad circumstances.

This is a very common problem; reading through this thread will give you an idea of what's likely to be going on, and what your options are. If you're in a hurry, start here.

24000 miles is at the lower end of what we usually see (they generally go at least twice that before giving trouble), but it's not unknown. How long have you had the car?

The first thing is to check the fluid level; this needs to be done with the system depressurised, so it needs to either be done after the car has been standing overnight, or by a garage with the tools to depressurise the system. If it's low, topping it up may fix the problem for a short while, but low fluid = a leak somewhere, so it's unlikely to be a permanent fix.

There aren't many garages who really seem to understand these gearboxes, and I'd include many of the franchised dealers in that. Finding a decent specialist is your best chance of fixing this permanently and cheaply; many folks at this point would just have the light reset and then trade the car in.

p6baseunit's post (linked above) is a pretty good summary of the options.
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Last edited by jrkitching; 27-07-2017 at 08:47.
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Old 01-08-2017   #357
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Unhappy The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Hi,

My Fiat is in trouble...Dualogic trouble...Please help...

Car in question: 2013 Fiat 500 Sport with approx 45,000kms (27,000miles) on the clock. Purchased off of original owner...Full Service History...

It would be much appreciated if someone could provide some insight/thoughts into my Fiat 500's Dualogic issues at hand - As the transmission "specialists" are perplexed...

So, whilst driving the car, it often shifts into neutral generally when downshifting from 5th to 4th in auto mode (seems to be when cold or not completely warmed up, and more prone when not in Sport mode?) .

The other fairly major issue I had was its refusal to move/shift into gear from stand-still. This happened just the night after the car randomly decided to shift into neutral while driving down a busy city street! According to the transmission place, the moving issue is *currently* "cured" by a software reset...for the moment)

It has now been off the road for 2+ months thanks to such Dualogic issues.

The transmission "specialists" are only now, starting to "pull everything apart", after I finally managed to get them to replicate the issue whilst driving them around town, and convinced them that resetting the Dualogic system over and over again was not going to resolve it.

I have mechanical breakdown insurance (thank god) so the issue is not going to be paying for the repair, but more working out what is wrong...As I say, they are completely lost! I am concerned that the transmission specialist's lack of knowledge is going to cause further delays...Unfortunately though, it is the only transmission place within 400+kms.

Any insight/thoughts are very much appreciated - Or mentioning of knowledgable Dualogic places in NZ (if anyone knows of some).

Cheers and hi from cold New Zealand.
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Old 01-08-2017   #358
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Sorry to hear about your problem.

I've moved your post into this special thread we are using to discuss dualogic issues. Sadly these are all too common and this thread is often to be found on the first page of the 500 section.

At least it will give you something to read whilst you are waiting for your car to be repaired. Dismantling the actuator by folks not fully conversant with these units tends not to work. For a quick summary of what's likely to be the best way to fix it, read this.

Fingers crossed for you.
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Old 01-08-2017   #359
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Hello Barney2017,
Where are you in NZ?
Can you be a bit more specific about what has been done and by who? - a 'software reset' could be a glorious description for removing the battery lead and refitting it. I'd like to know if the Selespeed fluid level has been checked, if the pressure has been checked, and if an EOL calibration has been carried out. This latter step teaches the system where to find the gears (as it moves the gear selectors, it learns positions where it drops into gear) and if there is a problem with selecting a particular gear, that is what you need it to re-learn.

Non-original software to do this is not expensive - MultiECUScan costs about $100 - but your 'transmission specialists' are not going to have it unless they've previously worked on FIAT/Alfa Romeo's Selespeed.

I would also change the gear oil (in the gearbox part, not the actuator) as your description of problems when cold and time of the year makes me suspect that. Put in FIAT's ZC75 - full synthetic.

I don't believe that Dualogic problems are very common, considering the large number of Pandas, Puntos, and 500s fitted with this system. The system is quite simple in concept; a standard mechanical gearbox, an ordinary clutch, and then a self-contained, removable device that operates them (known as the actuator).

When you really read into the drama, most problems are caused by a fluid leak, which tends to be cured by replacing the entire actuator. In my opinion, there's no need to assume a myriad of potential faults when most 'disasters' have had a simple cause. The diagnostic process is what's important here.

-Alex
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Last edited by alexGS; 01-08-2017 at 23:47.
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Old 02-08-2017   #360
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Re: The one and only Dualogic failure thread

Quote Originally Posted by alexGS View Post
When you really read into the drama, most problems are caused by a fluid leak, which tends to be cured by replacing the entire actuator.
That's an excellent summary, Alex.

Unfortunately replacing the actuator is expensive. The part alone costs upwards of 750 from the cheapest source (though donated members of this forum can get a 10% discount). Main dealers will charge a lot (probably around 2000 all in); general independent garages probably won't have either the software or the experience to calibrate the new unit properly, so that leaves either doing it yourself (which, let's be honest, isn't an option for most folks), or finding a knowledgeable independent Fiat specialist.

Many owners will likely have experienced a great deal of frustration and spent money on not fixing the problem before they even find this thread.

Quote Originally Posted by alexGS View Post
I don't believe that Dualogic problems are very common, considering the large number of Pandas, Puntos, and 500s fitted with this system.
It's not very common, but it's common enough (this thread is usually on the front page), and not a nice problem if you are one of the unlucky ones. On a 5yr old Panda, a main dealer repair will come close to the trade in value of the car. IMO any system this expensive to repair should be capable of lasting the design life of the vehicle, barring the occasional random failure.

In some ways, it might be better if it were more common, as then there'd be a healthy aftermarket in reconditioned actuators & pumps, together with more knowledge amongst the general garage fraternity.

Quote Originally Posted by alexGS View Post
The diagnostic process is what's important here.


The problem for most folks will be finding someone outside the franchised dealer network capable of properly diagnosing the fault. Whilst we can point folks in the right direction, we can't definitively diagnose a fault whilst sitting at a keyboard.
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Last edited by jrkitching; 02-08-2017 at 09:17.
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