General 2010 Panda 1.2 Clock zeroing.

[chris3234]

Well, I am having "fun" with the Ibiza battery coding. But first, more on Becky, the Panda, and her battery. Apart from the problem I previously mentioned regarding the clock zeroing for no apparent reason, she's been behaving impeccably. No problems with power steering or anything else which could be battery related. I've been regularly checking battery voltage after she's been standing for a few hours or overnight and it consistently comes out a bit low at around 11.9 to 12.3 volts. So I decided to put the C-TEC on and do a "recond" charge. Checked her since doing this about a week ago and she's showing 12.5 and, once, 12.6 volts. The clock is behaving itself too. So I think I'm likely to get the summer out of this battery and will probably put a new one in for next winter.

I've been having some pretty in depth conversations with a chap on the Cupra Forum (the only other forum I post on) who is having similar problems to me but with his wife's Ibiza. (it's slightly older than mine but same model which would seem to support the garage's claim that these original fit batteries are not particularly long lived?) He seems a bit more capable with using VCDS than me and has messaged me the procedure he's trying to circumnavigate the need to purchase a very expensive genuine VAG battery. If he's right it seems that there's no way round the earlier control systems but our later vehicles, using the UDS protocol, can be "fooled". Anyway, he's keeping me informed as to how he's getting on. Possibly as a result of the warmer weather we're currently experiencing, the Ibiza stop/start is working again just as it used to and battery voltage after standing for maybe a day or so is showing at around 12.2 to 12.3 volts. Although a little lower than I'd like to see, I'm thinking I may get away with keeping this one for the summer too? but am a little "worried" about not replacing it before our trip down to the "deep south" this summer. I'm also wondering if, being an EFB, I should try "reconding" it too? I believe AGM shouldn't be "reconded" but an EFB will have liquid electrolyte so I'm guessing it might benefit? Anyone got an opinion? The chap on the Cupra Forum has told me he lives on the south side of our city, probably about a half hour's drive from me, so I'm rather hoping that when the time comes to renew the Ibiza's battery he might entertain giving me a hand - more for moral support than anything else.

As far as I'm aware you definitely can still recon a EFB type battery after all it's basically a normal battery just with the cell's wrapped in a material to minimize damage from cycling
Although some do have things to apperntly mininise any stratification




That being said I recently put efb battery into my tipo
It had a standard type originally as it dosnt have start stop but was sitting around 12.5-12.6 after a full charge
Put it through a recon cycle and it's was at 12.8 and 12.6v a few days later after some use so definitely benefitted it and thats on a new battery

 

[jrkitching]

I'll keep a very close eye on it - wouldn't want Mrs J getting stranded somewhere inconvenient.

In the old days, batteries failed gracefully, giving you plently of warning to get the problem sorted before leaving anybody stranded.

Nowadays, they often fail suddenly and completely, with little or no prior indication that anything's wrong.

The last one on tha Panda was just like this. Pulled into a supermarket car park after a 20 mile drive, came out 15 mins later, and it wouldn't even think about turning the starter. A quick push start and 10 miles to the nearest ECP, turned the engine off and there wasn't enough left to raise the window (yes, it was raining cats & dogs). Bought the best battery they had on the shelf at the time (not much of a choice, really), and it's been fine since.

Moral of this story: if you are in any doubt whatsoever about the condition of the battery, don't put off replacing it or you could be stranded when you least expect it.

Codicil to moral: preplanning allows you to search for a great deal on a good battery, instead of having to pay whatever price Euro are demanding for the mediocre battery that's only on the shelf because nobody else wants it.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

In the old days, batteries failed gracefully, giving you plently of warning to get the problem sorted before leaving anybody stranded.

Nowadays, they often fail suddenly and completely, with little or no prior indication that anything's wrong.

The last one on tha Panda was just like this. Pulled into a supermarket car park after a 20 mile drive, came out 15 mins later, and it wouldn't even think about turning the starter. A quick push start and 10 miles to the nearest ECP, turned the engine off and there wasn't enough left to raise the window (yes, it was raining cats & dogs). Bought the best battery they had on the shelf at the time (not much of a choice, really), and it's been fine since.

Moral of this story: if you are in any doubt whatsoever about the condition of the battery, don't put off replacing it or you could be stranded when you least expect it.

Codicil to moral: preplanning allows you to search for a great deal on a good battery, instead of having to pay whatever price Euro are demanding for the mediocre battery that's only on the shelf because nobody else wants it.

Much appreciate your advice here jrk. Thank you. Looks like I'm just going to have to bite the bullet and raid the piggy bank! At least replacing it doesn't involve the "silly" coding rubbish I'm faced with on the Ibiza!

 

[DaveMcT]

My 100HP battery did the same thing. I suspected it was getting weak then soon after it just died. I was away from home so bought the cheapest they had in Halfords (very not cheap). I never trusted it and about a year later replaced with a Yuasa Silver from Tanya batteries.

 

[koalar]

it an interesting experiment if you have MultiECUscan or similar

plot the voltage with live data while cranking, engine cold

I can almost guarantee it will be a fairly straight line. A new batter is closer to horizontal and the older the battery the steeper the down slop is

now try and measure with a multi meter. It will be way higher. So you can read the display and its not just a load of rolling numbers they do a kind of hold and pause function. This is the reason you can't use a digital meter to see most electric power steering faults. The drop is so quick and comes back it doesn't even register

a new battery will fire up at around 11V and at a drop of a round 5v the car will not start. The clock reseats at around 6v.

I have limped a duff battery to winter but it only puts off the inevitable. I payed £15 for my battery from a local breakers. He tests them before selling. Leaves them a few days to make sure they hold a charge

 

[Yolanda]

I bought a Mk 4 Cortina ex Army many many years ago, it was probably 5 years old, I can't remember now. It was on it's original battery, and after a couple of years of ownership the the battery started showing signs of needing replacing. I read somewhere that if you completely discharged the battery by switching every thing on eg headlights hazards heated rear window etc etc till completely flat, then slow charge it for 24 hours it would bring it back to life. Being a tight sod then ( as I still am today ) I thought I'd give it a try. I had the car for another 5or 6 years and sold it still with the same battery.
Just to add the battery was a heavy duty one, and as most people know in those days there were no on board computers fitted to cars, just old fashioned plugs points etc.
Ah the good old days.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I bought a Mk 4 Cortina ex Army many many years ago, it was probably 5 years old, I can't remember now. It was on it's original battery, and after a couple of years of ownership the the battery started showing signs of needing replacing. I read somewhere that if you completely discharged the battery by switching every thing on eg headlights hazards heated rear window etc etc till completely flat, then slow charge it for 24 hours it would bring it back to life. Being a tight sod then ( as I still am today ) I thought I'd give it a try. I had the car for another 5or 6 years and sold it still with the same battery.
Just to add the battery was a heavy duty one, and as most people know in those days there were no on board computers fitted to cars, just old fashioned plugs points etc.
Ah the good old days.

Ah, the good old days indeed. As you may know the problem with these old batteries was sulphation of the surface of the plates - which is still a problem to this day. If some of that sulphation can be broken away those parts of the plates will start to react again and the battery will partially recover: https://www.crownbattery.com/news/s...attery,and greatly impact battery performance. Please don't anyone try this with a modern EFB or AGM battery though as they will go into what is called a "deeply discharged state" from which it will not be possible to reawaken them without some pretty sophisticated charging gear. Most people wouldn't bother to try as buying a new battery might be cheaper than trying to reawaken the old, deeply discharged, one. Anyone remember the "magic" pills you could drop into the old open top cell type batteries which were meant to dissolve the sulphation?

 

[varesecrazy]

Yes Jock

'BatAid'.. or similar name for those tablets

 

[chris3234]

Ah, the good old days indeed. As you may know the problem with these old batteries was sulphation of the surface of the plates - which is still a problem to this day. If some of that sulphation can be broken away those parts of the plates will start to react again and the battery will partially recover: https://www.crownbattery.com/news/sulfation-and-battery-maintenance#:~:text=Sulfation occurs when a battery,and greatly impact battery performance. Please don't anyone try this with a modern EFB or AGM battery though as they will go into what is called a "deeply discharged state" from which it will not be possible to reawaken them without some pretty sophisticated charging gear. Most people wouldn't bother to try as buying a new battery might be cheaper than trying to reawaken the old, deeply discharged, one. Anyone remember the "magic" pills you could drop into the old open top cell type batteries which were meant to dissolve the sulphation?

Most battery's none efb/agm still have the cells just a little harder to Access
Including the Exide battery on your panda (asuming it's like the one fitted to my tipo) it's under the label it's just come off in the large rectangular section in one piece rather then unscrew each cell on it's own

 

[DaveMcT]

It's true that a digital voltmeter will not give useful values during cranking. However it will show the system voltage after engine start. On a new battery that voltage recovers almost immediately. Weak, batteries take longer to recover. It was this recovery difference that diagnosed my weak battery.
Another test is the charge time from flat. If the charger shows full after a couple of hours, the battery has minimal capacity and should be replaced.

 

[Mike1alike]

It's true that a digital voltmeter will not give useful values during cranking.

Actually, that is not so true. If you watch it with attention, it does show you, even if just for seconds, the actual droping of voltage. That is how I discovered a very used/bad rotor of starter motor. I've seen previously a quite dramatic drop of tension in the battery while cranking and following it upstream, I've got to that rotor that I've replaced and now all is working fine.
And another thing that can be very useful is to videorecord the reading you do with a digital multimeter. And afterward you can watch it on slower speed and so you can observe everý relevant oscillation of recorded tension.

 

[koalar]

Actually, that is not so true. If you watch it with attention, it does show you, even if just for seconds, the actual droping of voltage. That is how I discovered a very used/bad rotor of starter motor. I've seen previously a quite dramatic drop of tension in the battery while cranking and following it upstream, I've got to that rotor that I've replaced and now all is working fine.
And another thing that can be very useful is to videorecord the reading you do with a digital multimeter. And afterward you can watch it on slower speed and so you can observe everý relevant oscillation of recorded tension.

a multi meter will take several reading over a previous time frame and run an algorithm on them before displaying what it saw previously.

Even though I have several scopes I would just use the live data function on a scan tool to record the voltage. As its quick and easy

All my meters will read way higher than the true value

Taking a video and slowing it down will not tell you the max drop. Multi meter is an essential tool though.

comes up almost weekly, where someone has been caught out assuming the battery is okay because it either measures with a multi meter or a battery tester okay.

A "standard" multi meter is not the correct tool for a rapidly changing voltage

 

[DaveMcT]

Actually, that is not so true. If you watch it with attention, it does show you, even if just for seconds, the actual droping of voltage. That is how I discovered a very used/bad rotor of starter motor. I've seen previously a quite dramatic drop of tension in the battery while cranking and following it upstream, I've got to that rotor that I've replaced and now all is working fine.
And another thing that can be very useful is to videorecord the reading you do with a digital multimeter. And afterward you can watch it on slower speed and so you can observe everý relevant oscillation of recorded tension.

To be fair I have only a cheap multimeter with slow data capture rate. I would far prefer an AVO with analogue dial but my needs dont run to such heights.

A weak starter motor will not drop the voltage as much as a good motor. That's how I diagnosed my bike starter (which looked identical to the Panda motor). I discovered a bad alternator by a slow voltage recovery rate after cranking. Bad battery was a deeper volts drop than normal.

Most of this is subjective but gives indications of where to look next. I confirmed the bike with a sale or return starter. A new one was silly money so had to be sure. Batteries usually diagnose themselves by failing suddenly. Alternators are much harder to diagnose. Mine was repaid because the casing was cracked but it was actually charging just fine. Wife's started to throw up the low charge warning light so that effectively diagnosed itself. It did deliver some charge but was weak. Changed before it left her stranded.

 

[varesecrazy]

CARRIED OVER from TTR.s thread..

NAPA .. I had heard of it too,probably from the US forum I frequented pre 2010

Of course MOPAR seemed 'new' to a lot of us
I was amused by a MOPAR bag of 'Imperial'... INCH sized bolts

In by late Dad's garage

Chrysler badge markings on it... from the 80's probably


JOCK

My take on Becky..
If it does a COLD start in the Morning..its got a fair chance or starting 3 hours later when warm



I just remembered when I worked Shifts..
My 903cc X reg panda battery wouldnt crank it at 06:05 one cool morning on the works car park.

I 'run and bumped it' like a small motorcycle

Cars have Definitely got heavier..!!


BATTERY UPDATE
Im very pleased.. (its early days..)

With the Enduroline battery from Tayna

On paper its CLOSE to your requirements.. but being S:S enabled its an AGM battrry so is called 027 series ( yours is 012..??)

It got put on our 2018 500 4 cyl FIRE

ran Stop.Start immediately.. after 10 days use ot Paused for the who 5 minute cycle of our local riverbridge Trafficlights

All lights still on full

@£94 not particularly cheap.. but should be almost as good as the Exide brand FIAT fitted on them all at the factory

All 3 of my petrol cars run the same stock S:S battery systems.. so easy to gauge what is 'fading'

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

CARRIED OVER from TTR.s thread..

NAPA .. I had heard of it too,probably from the US forum I frequented pre 2010

Of course MOPAR seemed 'new' to a lot of us
I was amused by a MOPAR bag of 'Imperial'... INCH sized bolts

In by late Dad's garage

Chrysler badge markings on it... from the 80's probably


JOCK

My take on Becky..
If it does a COLD start in the Morning..its got a fair chance or starting 3 hours later when warm



I just remembered when I worked Shifts..
My 903cc X reg panda battery wouldnt crank it at 06:05 one cool morning on the works car park.

I 'run and bumped it' like a small motorcycle

Cars have Definitely got heavier..!!


BATTERY UPDATE
Im very pleased.. (its early days..)

With the Enduroline battery from Tayna

On paper its CLOSE to your requirements.. but being S:S enabled its an AGM battrry so is called 027 series ( yours is 012..??)

It got put on our 2018 500 4 cyl FIRE

ran Stop.Start immediately.. after 10 days use ot Paused for the who 5 minute cycle of our local riverbridge Trafficlights

All lights still on full

@£94 not particularly cheap.. but should be almost as good as the Exide brand FIAT fitted on them all at the factory

All 3 of my petrol cars run the same stock S:S battery systems.. so easy to gauge what is 'fading'

Thanks Charlie. A glass matt battery might just be a bit of an overkill for our wee Becky but I'll go with an enhanced flooded if it's a good deal. I believe the manufacturers now recommend replacing standard "wet cell" batteries with EFB? not too sure what the operating advantages are though?

 

[varesecrazy]

Less Voltage drop in Cold conditions would be a plus..

Maybe they dont degrade as quick as LeadAcid when in a state of low charge..?

My punto twinair SAT for weeks and weeks early 2020.. I was convinced..being 8 years in service the battery would be poor..

Its still working now.. been parked for 10 days..and fired up in snowy 2'c conditions.

The Lead acids on our previous panda 169 were poor by comparison.

 

[DaveMcT]

Get a Yuasa Silver as specified for 100HP. Five year warranty and more than capable in cold weather. Tanya batteries are a good reliable supplier.

 

[DaveMcT]

The battery is telling you it’s on the way out. Get the 100HP/Multijet spec Yuasa from Tanya. Job done & at least that won’t leave the Mrs stranded.

 

[DaveMcT]

You can buy a cheaper battery from Halfords for the same money. Who knows how their batteries get delivered or how long they sit on the shelf. Tanya have a reputation to maintain. Next day delivery in a well packed box worked for me.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

You can buy a cheaper battery from Halfords for the same money. Who knows how their batteries get delivered or how long they sit on the shelf. Tanya have a reputation to maintain. Next day delivery in a well packed box worked for me.

Thanks Dave. I'd be buying the Yuasa from Halfords if I go with them however, Yes, should ask myself how long it might have been sitting? If I go with one from the factor it'll be a Bosch.

That store I worked for early on in my career did a lot of battery business and we had a basic stock of common sizes, from our supplier, always on the shelves. The popular ones moved fast so never sat for long but once a month the battery rep would call by, check our stock and swap out the batteries which had been unsold for a while, replacing them with new. Wonder if that sort of system is still operated in the trade today?

Going to depend whether the factor quotes me a much better price than Tayna.

So, is the battery tray in the 100hp identical to the 169? I'm pretty sure the 100hp battery (the 012) is about 15mm, maybe nearly 20mm, longer than the standard 169 battery. My battery tray looks like it could take this, but there won't be much room to spare Width and height seems to be the same for both.