Technical Fiat Panda 1.2 2010 Rust issue and possible solutions for it?

[kavil]

Hello Everyone, i am looking for a Fiat Panda 2010 with 65k km, interior is in really good condition but the underside makes me little worried. There is oily resiedue around the oil pan but it looks semi-old and before and after test drive i did not see

any new fluid on the oil pan or around the car. Exhaust is rusted out a lot and back axis are also rusted, I am not experienced with the rust repair so best i can do clean it and cover it with rust converter and spray or buy new pieces and replace them.

I do not know how bad they are but if possible please look at the photos and give me suggestion about it. Should i proceed forward with the buy and change it by myself or should i avoid it?

 

[koalar]

I got the car finally and drove home about 55km, i could not experience steering wheel problem. However what i have noticed is some kind of jolting (i hope i am using this word correctly, i mean some kind of shake)

Jolting happens when i take my foot from the gas pedal and RPM is below 1800. I will look everything in detail tomorrow with sunlight, maybe it is because worn motor mounts i am not sure.

Any knocking noise at the same time

 

[rmjbn1]

Jolting happens when i take my foot from the gas pedal and RPM is below 1800. I will look everything in detail tomorrow with sunlight, maybe it is because worn motor mounts i am not sure.

The petrol Pandas seem to have a characteristic a few of us have noticed, coming off throttle when manoeuvring can cause the car to 'kangaroo' and make you look like a learner driver!
Because of the way the fuel flow is shut off. I tend to dip the clutch to stop it, almost automatic for me now.
Or is this happening to you at higher speeds?
One thing I forgot to mention - I would clean the MAP sensor and wipe the throttle body clean with a cloth & brake cleaner / carb cleaner / petrol - just take care with the small rubber pipe at the back when removing the air filter housing.

 

[kavil]

Any knocking noise at the same time

No knocking sound, It mainly does it on second and third gears around 1500-2500 RPM. It does not happen over 70km/h or on 4th-th gear.

Today i drive around 150 km and i am pretty sure something wrong with the thermostat, after 50-60 minutes of driving Coolant temp was %35 percent high and not in the middle as it should be. I am preparing a buying list at the moment. There is 2 types of Thermostat for Fiat panda i guess, i will look tomorrow closely (if i am able to see it without removing the battery tray) and order simple one or the sensored one accordingly.

Already bought liquimoly 10w-40 right spec oil, Dot 4 Fluid and few doses of Brakecleaner.

I would like to buy 2 belts as well but the width of the camshaft belt is different and on the website both of them seems to compatible with Panda. 15mm and 22 mm, i looked at the service manuel but i could not find the dimension for it. (i am skipping water pump at the moment)

For the V belt there is also 2 types but easier to understand because my car has clima therefore i need to pick longer one that runs both clima and alternator.

I know it is recommended to use Paraflu %50 according to the information on the hood but can i use any generic coolant?

Sparkplugs are little confusing as well there are many different brands and many different part numbers which all seems to be compatible with the Panda

Right Heater control unit light is broken and needs to be changed. I found a topic here in this forum and 10 pieces cost 2 £ but the one i found cost 0.99€ for 1 piece I can not check for compatability JENBACHER 42799. Do you guys have some sort of website or guide to check piece compatibility?

I am using one website to source everything and going with 1 brand on everything as well (brakes, filters, sparkplugs all Bosch) i am not sure if that is logical thing to do but...

 

[koalar]

No knocking sound, It mainly does it on second and third gears around 1500-2500 RPM. It does not happen over 70km/h or on 4th-th gear.

I have had 3 pandas 1.1 06, 1.2 05 and 1.2 2010 none have done this if used normally when working properly, I have had a fault throttle pedal, failed plugs and so on, the 69BHP is slightly more touchy

Today i drive around 150 km and i am pretty sure something wrong with the thermostat, after 50-60 minutes of driving Coolant temp was %35 percent high and not in the middle as it should be. I am preparing a buying list at the moment. There is 2 types of Thermostat for Fiat panda i guess, i will look tomorrow closely (if i am able to see it without removing the battery tray) and order simple one or the sensored one accordingly.

Yes it's Visable without undoing anything

Already bought liquimoly 10w-40 right spec oil, Dot 4 Fluid and few doses of Brakecleaner.

I would like to buy 2 belts as well but the width of the camshaft belt is different and on the website both of them seems to compatible with Panda. 15mm and 22 mm, i looked at the service manuel but i could not find the dimension for it. (i am skipping water pump at the moment)

If you have a round oil filter it will be 22mm at 2009 it should be

For the V belt there is also 2 types but easier to understand because my car has clima therefore i need to pick longer one that runs both clima and alternator.

Correct

I know it is recommended to use Paraflu %50 according to the information on the hood but can i use any generic coolant?

Any oats coolant is fine in my opinion

Sparkplugs are little confusing as well there are many different brands and many different part numbers which all seems to be compatible with the Panda

2009 1.2 has two different plugs listed it's right on the crossover period

If you have the original owners manual the correct plugs will be listed

I have used both Denso and NGK both okay

Right Heater control unit light is broken and needs to be changed. I found a topic here in this forum and 10 pieces cost 2 £ but the one i found cost 0.99€ for 1 piece I can not check for compatability JENBACHER 42799. Do you guys have some sort of website or guide to check piece compatibility?

No idea here in the UK they are named 286 Bulb or R286

I am using one website to source everything and going with 1 brand on everything as well (brakes, filters, sparkplugs all Bosch) i am not sure if that is logical thing to do but...

Just buy quality brands from a reputable supplier

 

[kavil]

This weekend i clean the car thoroughly. Unfortunately the Vacuum extractor that i bought came "used" in the NEW box i had to return it. Otherwise everywhere is plastic and easy to clean.

I removed the front left wheel and take a look at the brakes. The outermost pad has healthy amount of pad material but i could not see the inner pad. Is there a way to look at it without removing the caliper? There is some sort of residue on the disk surface which i do not know.

And do you suggest Haynes Fiat 500 Panda Petrol Diesel Service and Repair Manuel? Is it any good? I would like to buy it but i have never ever owned or read such manuel in the past before.

I found this website for Torque specs https://4cardata.info/elearn/169/2/2009000/2000901 for the Torque specs

​

 

[kavil]

I removed the back drum brakes with little effort and it seems there is 5 mm material left on the both sides of the brake shoes.

There was not much oxidation to begin with but I also removed battery terminals and cleaned both poles and the clamps thoroughly. Made a test drive and everything seem okay and i gone to bed. 2 days after a cold morning (-5 C°) i tried to start the car. It came to life as expected with few cranks of the starter. After 50 meters of driving Steering wheel gone heavy with Warning light.

I turned off and started engine again and everything normal after 1 km of driving wheel gone once again heavy and had to start it again. In 20 minutes of driving it gave warning light and gone heavy total of 4 times.

I parked the car and for lunch break used it again for the same 20 min drive without single warning, back to work after lunch again no warning, and after work done no light again.

According to detailed guide of koalar all these suggest battery or bad earth. I tried to locate the earth cable but i could not find it. I know it is somewhere right and bolted to the frame but Where is it exactly?

I also looked about the batteries and koalar once again suggested something with 330CCA but even the weakest Ah battery that i find is well over 420CCA

The current battery i have (even though i do not know its age) is stated Banner P5003 Power Bull 50 Ah with 450CCA

It is well over recommended values by koalar. And car starts each and everything without a problem even in minus degrees at the moment. Should i nevertheless buy new battery?

 

[jrkitching]

Should i nevertheless buy new battery?

I'd make sure the earths are in good condition first

 

[kavil]

Today i looked at the car once again. Changed few burnout light bulbs, glued few broken plastic pieces and tested head gasket leak with a Co2 fluid. Luckily i do not have such problem as far as i understand. I also tried to diagnose possible Thermostat issue. The plastic pipe connecting thermostat and radiator stayed cold until %40 percent of the heat gauge and it became warm-hot in few minutes afterwards. That suggests thermostat worked correctly and opened itself. Right?

What i did not understand is, it struggled to come to %50 during 1.5 hour drive and stayed around %35 most of the time on the road. That made me wonder about the faulty thermostat. I received all the new belts thermostat sparkplugs filters anyways it might be good learning opportunity. Is there a sure way of testing thermostat without installing it on the car? Can i try it with boiling water under the sink?


Earth cable is sort of green and oxidized. I do not know if it is okay but instead of replacing it, i will clean it and i will add another new earth cable and connect it to gearbox. (i saw something similar in one youtube video.) I tried to find earth cable but they are really expensive 15 Chf for simple earth cable so i will improvise with thicker spare cable that i have and crimp heads myself. I hope it works.

 

[rmjbn1]

I removed the front left wheel and take a look at the brakes. The outermost pad has healthy amount of pad material but i could not see the inner pad. Is there a way to look at it without removing the caliper?

3310A60 FRONT BRAKE PADS - REPLACE - Fiat - PANDA - eLearn - 4CarData

Be very careful removing the clip and pin - they can go flying! Don't ask me how I know. Lay a big sheet down.

What i did not understand is, it struggled to come to %50 during 1.5 hour drive and stayed around %35 most of the time on the road. That made me wonder about the faulty thermostat

It sounds like the thermostat could be leaking. They are kept closed with a rubber seal which fails with age:

common problem with thermostate | FIAT Panda (Mk3)

when the weather get cold we get loads of cooling issues heaters only blowing warm P0115 error radiator fans coming on fast. gauge dropping down occationly. gauge only going up 1/4 way 90% are down to a missing rubber gasket inside the thermostat. Because the thermostat is opening and...

www.fiatforum.com

Is there a sure way of testing thermostat without installing it on the car? Can i try it with boiling water under the sink?

I've heated old thermostats up in pans of water before with a thermometer to test they open at the correct temperature.

 

[koalar]

Earth cable looks okay

Well much better than mine

A good coating in grease and it will probably out last the rest of the car

 

[kavil]

It sounds like the thermostat could be leaking. They are kept closed with a rubber seal which fails with age:

common problem with thermostate | FIAT Panda (Mk3)

when the weather get cold we get loads of cooling issues heaters only blowing warm P0115 error radiator fans coming on fast. gauge dropping down occationly. gauge only going up 1/4 way 90% are down to a missing rubber gasket inside the thermostat. Because the thermostat is opening and...

www.fiatforum.com

I've heated old thermostats up in pans of water before with a thermometer to test they open at the correct temperature.

I also tested the new thermostat in a pan of boiling water. It opened up nicely around 91 C (87C stamped on the metal casing) I tried it 2 times and both of times opened and closed around correct degrees.
I will hold the front rubber pipe tomorrow again. It should stay cold exactly until middle of the heat gauge right? Today it was cold until %40 then become warm-hot in short few minutes. Therefore i though it is working but if %40 is less than 87C that we need, than it is faulty or lose its ability to open on correct degree or lost rubber seal as many others. I will try the pipe test tomorrow.

Earth cable looks okay

Well much better than mine

A good coating in grease and it will probably out last the rest of the car

Thanks for the answer. In that case battery is the culprit for my steering wheel going heavy right? I througly read your topic about EPS systems and you clearly wrote that Voltmeter tests does not bring any conclusive answer to this problem (your example with bad cell battery less then 12v having no problem with the steering etc.)
I nevertheless wanted to examine the behavior of the Battery during startup, it was 12.2V to begin with after 2 days of sitting in cold weather. When the key in ignition with headlights on it gone to 11.65V. During engine cranking it dip below 9.2V for half a second and gone directly to 14V on idle with the help of alternator. at 2500 Rpm it was 14.2V.

Car staring without any problem whatsoever. If it is not the battery and not the earth than i do not know what it is.

My current Battery is Banner P5003 Power Bull 50 Ah with 450CCA and i also found a sticker on the back side of it with (12/20) i presume it is month and year. So battery is around 3.5 years old. I am not that knowledgeable when it comes to batteries and i know it is suggested to change ever 3-5 years but we had different cars all around my childhood with some of the going 12 years with original battery until the day of second hand sale so i am not sure if 3.5 years is really Old for a battery.

 

[kavil]

Yesterday i drove around 2 hours and Coolant temperature fluctuated between %25-50 all the time. My thermostat suspicion grow bigger.

Today i changed the Thermostat and cleaned the earth cable and added additional earth cable as well.

During the coolant removal i dropped metal connection piece inside the tank and could not get it out. Therefore leisure 1 hour job become 2 days work for me. I tried to remove the lower pipe without success, i could not understand how does the release works, i tried to push at the same time pull one side etc but it did not budge, I started to remove front bumper to access radiator and maybe get to the metal piece but after a while my wife come to the rescue and she picked it up with springy metal picker. It was a huge relief. I started to assemble everything back together afterwards.

Top pipe that is connected to thermostat become suddenly hot after engine warmed up to %50 percent and I gone to 40 minutes drive and coolant temp stayed on %50 mark all the time. I believe it is solved. I will keep an eye in upcoming days for leaks and coolant level.

Tomorrow i will try to change timing and V belt. and front door window clunk sound solution. I also read about the back luggage compartment light addition. i want to try it as well.

 

[kavil]

Today i tried to replace belts and find out if i can fit backlight in the luggage compartment.

I removed the back carpet and find a factory light connecter already in place. I will buy suitable light for it but it makes 0 sense for me to crate a luggage with microswitch so that it detects if it is open or closed, with light cutout, connector already in the loom and carpet with cable cutout and NOT putting a light.

I replaced the auxiliary drive belt for clima and alternator. It was cracked a lot.

Engine support mounts were pain in the a... to remove, i could not fit braker bar due to limited place, only shortest 15mm socket fit but i could not leveraged it and had to use small ratchet and big pipe and even with that it took considerable amount of force. I might have ruined the ratchet itself as well. it did not sound crisp afterwards.
I tried to remove the 3 13mm bolt on the crankshaft pulley but the engine turned, i tried to block middle 15mm but even with my thinnest socket i can not fit 13mm on the bolts. I tried to put car in 1st gear but engine turned again. I could not find a way to remove it and open for suggestions. Time was getting late therefore i fixed everything back together. Timing belt does not have cracks neither outside or inside as far as i could see. But it would be great to change it and learn it as well. If you people could help me with crankshaft bolt removal i would like to give it another go.

Other than 2 bolt i could not fit the torque wrench on the engine support bolts and had to guess by hand. I hope it is tight enough. I torqued other 17 and 15 mm on flexible mount to spec (50-60Nm)

Thermostat is not leaking after 24 hours and 20km drive which is good news. Engine is warming up in idle way faster than before.

Question: I have a lot of laying LED 12v Strip and similar things, i could cut the connector and solder my own and use this LED strip instead of regular light? Does it have polarity? It has RED-Orange/White 2 cable going in to the connector.

 

[koalar]

Loosen the the pulley bolts first with the wheels still on the ground,

 

[kavil]

Loosen the the pulley bolts first with the wheels still on the ground,

Thanks for the answer. I only lifted the front right wheel and removed it. Left wheel was on the ground and gear was engaged, it turned nevertheless. I will try your suggestion as soon as possible, i doubt it will be easy because room is very limited

 

[koalar]

I don't take the wheel off at all

I undo a few screws on the inner wheel lining and kind of peel it back and tuck it behind the strut, it tougher and more flexible than you think

 

[koalar]

What year and engine was it you bought in the end

There's three different timing methods

Two for the engines with the square oil filler cap and one for the engines with the round filler


A lot of the information online is either wrong, misleading or missing some vital information,

 

[kavil]

What year and engine was it you bought in the end

There's three different timing methods

Two for the engines with the square oil filler cap and one for the engines with the round filler


A lot of the information online is either wrong, misleading or missing some vital information,

What do you mean exactly by filler cap? the black round cap that is located top left corner of the engine? I watched 5-6 different youtube videos of the timing belt most of them were in Italian, could you guide me or tell me how to access correct information?

Fiat Panda
2009
90.000 KM
1.2
188A4000 Motor
169AXB1A Version

 

[koalar]

Round cap is an evo2 engine

They are supposed to be timed like this

Home Page

aftersales.fiat.com

However the camshaft pulley bolt will be very tight, there is a risk of damage unless you have access to the a impact wrench capable of 300nm and the pulley locking tool

The belt will not fit while the crankshaft and camshaft are locked, you can not pull the left side tight enough

This is my car is a year later with variable valve timing but the principals are the same

I wedge the belt on the crankshaft pulley with a rag pull the belt up and mark the pulley and belt

Release the camshaft and turn anticlockwise one tooth

There are other ways

It can be done without using locking tools or taking the valve cover off by making your own timing marks

 

[kavil]

Thanks for detailed answer. Do you mean the central 15mm crankshaft pulley bolt or surrounding 3x 13 mm pulley bolts for (to drive belt for clima and alternator)

i have no intension to remove central 15mm bolt but rather 3x 13mm bolt to access timing belt behind on the tooted gear. I read that it is only 25nm and should be easy to remove but engine is turning when i try it with wrench. I saw someone pushing a screwdriver in to the flywheel teeth through the hole between exhausted pipe and oil sump. I am not sure if it is risky but if i could not manage to loosen them with the wheel on the ground as you suggested i might try it.