General 2010 Panda 1.2 Clock zeroing.

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Our Panda has started doing something a little strange. When you go out to start it you notice the digital clock is flashing at zero and you have to reset it to the correct time. It then performs fine for the rest of the day, including stopping and starting at the supermarket etc. However a couple of days later, when you start it up again the clock is flashing at zero again. There are no warning lights showing on the dash display so I'm guessing there are probably no fault codes stored. Other than this all is well with her. I'm going to hook up my MES for a look see when this cold spell has gone through but, in the meantime, anyone got any suggestions?

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi Jock

Thats often the warning of a tired battery..

Ive not been on here enough lately to recall if 'Beckys battery' is recent

Charlie

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Hi Jock

Thats often the warning of a tired battery..

Ive not been on here enough lately to recall if 'Beckys battery' is recent

Charlie

Thanks Charlie. I hope you and yours are keeping well?

The battery is the same one which was on her when I bought her around 5 years ago. It's an Exide branded one (which I know is one of the OE brands but it has no FIAT/ALFA branding like the originals usually have so I suspect it has been a replacement at some time. The battery had been one of the things I'd thought of but as I've had no power steering problems I'd kind of moved it to the back burner. (shouldn't have said that should I - Shh, don't let Becky hear!) The rain has just stopped and the sun's come out, still pretty chilly though, but I think I'll go out and put a meter on her and see what I can see. If nothing very obvious I'll stick the CTEC on it and give it a recon charge.

All best wishes and stay safe won't you.
Jock

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Brrrr, that's cold out there! But there you go, battery voltage 12.3 volts open circuit after last running about mid day yesterday. Thinking about it, all she's done for the last couple of months is shopping and supermarket runs, never more than about 5 miles at most and often only one or two runs per week. Could be that she's just not getting enough running to keep the battery properly charged? Of course if this is what's happened then sulphation may already be taking it's toll. So It's on a "normal" charge just now and Mrs J is taking her to the swimming pool this afternoon. I'll check it out again tomorrow and see what it's doing before I make my mind up - might just try a Recond charge too before condemning it.

 

[Mike1alike]

Thinking about it, all she's done for the last couple of months is shopping and supermarket runs, never more than about 5 miles at most and often only one or two runs per week. Could be that she's just not getting enough running to keep the battery properly charged?

Yes, it could, very much so.
A recon charge can make a difference.
I advice you to do measurements on engine start, both cold engine and hot engine, see how much the voltage drops. If it's too much, that can be the reason the battery doesn't charge enough, especially with Becky having short journeys.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Ah well, that's interesting. It only took about three quarters of an hour to bring it up to a full charge which is probably not a good indicator of the battery being in good nick. Mrs J needs to get to the pool though and she doesn't like driving my car so I'll just let her go. I don't think she'll have a problem but it's only a couple of miles away and anyway I can be there to jump it in about 10 minutes if needed. When she returns I'll whip it out and put it on a recond charge in the warmth of the garage and see how it responds to that.

By the way, now I've been taking a closer look at the battery I've noticed the label does have the typical FIAT/ALFA logo on it after all. So it would seem likely that it's the original battery after all? If so then I'm pretty impressed as it would have been fitted in 2010! They usually have a date stamp somewhere which I'll look for when I remove it from the car to charge it. Interestingly it's a 50 Ah 360 Amp battery too whereas I believe the normal fitment is a 42 Ah.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I've reached the conclusion that it's pretty definitely the battery. Because? Well Mrs J now tells me the clock has been doing this "trick" for at least a couple of weeks. Each time, because she doesn't like being distracted by the clock flashing, she resets it and it's ok until it's left for a couple of days.

To day, having checked and found it to be sitting at 12.3 volts, I charged it up fully and found it registering a full charge when I went out to check it three quarters of an hour later. I would have expected it to take quite a lot longer so my guess is that there's probably some plate sulphation reducing capacity. Off she went to her swimming, then round to the chemist and called at Lidl on the way back. The clock did not flash and behaved perfectly. Each time she started it she said it started "fine". So if partial sulphation is what's wrong then it may respond to a recond charge? She wants to use it tomorrow morning but after that she won't need it for some days so my plan is to take the battery into the garage overnight tomorrow night so it can warm up a bit and then put it on a Recond charge Saturday morning.

Can anyone tell me if there's a time limit for the electronic control unit - I guess it's the body control module - to retain the radio code? I've had batteries on both this car and my boy's Punto disconnected whilst doing cam belts and the radios still worked when the batteries were reconnected, but that was never for as long as an overnight.

Last question. Most sites seem to be recommending the 002 sized battery for the standard Panda - which is a 42ah jobbie - but the 100hp seems to take the 012 52/54ah Does anybody know if the larger capacity battery will fit the standard tray? I seem to remember someone, maybe Dave? posted about this a while ago. At least it's not stop/start so a good quality "ordinary" battery will do the job.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I think I've just found the answer to the battery question above. I was just browsing "Panda Battery Replacement" on you tube and I came across a video of a chap replacing the failed battery in his 100hp 169 Panda. It could be easily seen that it was an Exide - mine's an Exide - and when he'd taken the battery out he put it on the ground beside the new one - a Bosch - he was about to fit so he could compare them. This gave me a really good look at the labeling on his old Exide. It's absolutely identical to the one in Becky right now, I mean not just similar but absolutely identical! So I had been thinking my battery was a bit of a "weirdie" because it wasn't the smaller capacity battery being recommended by all the battery sites? but I think it's the original fitment battery and now I know it's the same one used in the 100hp I feel confident in going for it! Maybe the later cars (mine's a 2010) got the larger battery as standard fit?

Interestingly (or not?) he ran into the same "puzzle" I did when we replaced the battery in my boy's Punto. His original fit battery was an Exide and we replaced it with one bought from our local FIAT indy (Harrisons here in Leith) - can't remember the brand but it was one owned by Ford and has been a good buy - once the new battery was fitted I found that, although the clamp was securing the battery well, the braided strap had a little slack in it because the new battery's top was not quite so tall. The strap has no adjustment in it. You could put a thin sliver of ply or something under it to take up this slack, but we've never bothered and it's been fine.

 

[Didge3]

My Punto TA had an Excide from factory with the Fiat/Lancia branding, it was an EFB 63Ah though due to being a S/S car.
I doubt any replacements in life would still have the branding on them so wouldn't be surprised that yours is original, its done well for a 2010 though!

 

[s130]

One reason sometimes instruments / clocks throw Wobblies when the battery appears OK is because of the design of the separate voltage regulator that supplies them.

Normally that battery voltage is say 12V going to say 14.8V when the engine is running. The regulator wants to keep/limit the sensitive electrical stuff to no move than say 13V.

So battery voltage is below 12V, starter kicks in, volts drop to say 10V but the car fires up ok. However the regulator is such that any input voltage below say 10.5V is too low so it delivers no output voltage. Clock drops out, 14.8V resumes dash is happy, clock has reset.

All voltages mentioned above are examples but you should get the drift/idea.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

One reason sometimes instruments / clocks throw Wobblies when the battery appears OK is because of the design of the separate voltage regulator that supplies them.

Normally that battery voltage is say 12V going to say 14.8V when the engine is running. The regulator wants to keep/limit the sensitive electrical stuff to no move than say 13V.

So battery voltage is below 12V, starter kicks in, volts drop to say 10V but the car fires up ok. However the regulator is such that any input voltage below say 10.5V is too low so it delivers no output voltage. Clock drops out, 14.8V resumes dash is happy, clock has reset.

All voltages mentioned above are examples but you should get the drift/idea.

Yea. I suppose that at the end of the day the fact is that this clock reset is the only symptom we're seeing. Engine cranks good and fast and fires up no bother. Alternator charges 14+ volts. (can't remember the actual figure I saw earlier this morning when I checked it) and the car runs as well as it always does. I think I'm going to stop "panicking" and just keep an eye on it. I'm thinking that if it gets through the winter cold without failing then it may last until the autumn before we have to buy a replacement.

When I do come to buy I'm intending to buy the battery for the 100 hp 14 valve version - Anyone know of a reason why this might be a bad idea?

 

[chris3234]

Don't you have one if those ctek smart chargers?

Always worth giving a Regen charge if yours has that option


Also if it's like the OEM battery on my tipo you can pop out the section with the label on and check the fluid levels despite being a "sealed" battery



Shouldn't have any issues fitting a larger battery to the car you could put. A truck sized one if you could fit it in the space just take longer to fully recharge off the pandas alternator

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Thanks chris. Yes I do have a CTEC and it can do "recond" I mentioned above, about 6 posts up? that I might try doing this. Was going to do it today in fact but Mrs J says she's got urgent "stuff" to do so I can't mess about with "her" car today. Maybe tomorrow, but I think it's to rain heavily tomorrow so I'll maybe wait for a dryer day. I don't think she's about to be stranded by this in the next few days.

Normally, with the CTEC having a well smoothed output, I would charge with the battery leads still connected - I wouldn't do this with my old transformer type Crypton charger though! - I've had no issues doing this although I'm careful to connect the neg charger lead to vehicle earth and not the neg battery terminal on any vehicle with a battery condition monitor. However I think there is a small chance that excess gassing may take place with the recond so I'm going to remove the battery and do it on the bench. I know the car (body module?) "remembers" the radio code when the battery is disconnected because I've done this on both our Panda and my boy's Punto and both remembered their codes when reconnected so no radio reset was needed, but I only had them disconnected for less than half a day each. I'm wondering though if this is a time limited thing? In other words, if the battery is left disconnected for a day or two does it then forget the code?

I checked the battery voltage early on Thursday morning and found it to read 12.3 volts. The car hadn't run for best part of a week before that and, as this seemed just a bit low for me to be "proper happy" (as Guy would say), I stuck it on charge. It came up with the green light in under an hour and Mrs J took it shopping before I could check the registered voltage (which would have been meaningless anyway as there wouldn't have been time for it to equalize across the plates in that time). On her return she reported that the clock was "behaving". She went shopping again with it yesterday and again she reported the clock to be "behaving" I stuck my multimeter on it again this morning and it's reading no change at 12.3 volts. My conclusion is that this battery is almost certainly the original from 2010 and is now getting a bit "tired". I'm going to definitely give it a recond charge - when I can get hold of it for half a day or so - and then see how it performs. Whatever, I think it'll be needing a new battery by next autumn at the latest.

I'd be very interested to hear from anyone who knows if the ability to retain the radio code is time limited if the battery is disconnected for a lengthy period of time?

 

[Mike1alike]

I don't think that the ability to retain the radio code is time limited, but of course, you could get surprised to discover it is.
But, I can suggest you something you can do and you will have no worries about code being lost. And also, you'll not mess around with Mrs. J's "stuff" and mind you, that is not a minor detail. So, you could swap a good battery on Becky (maybe from your car), and take the presumably faulty batery and charge it on the bench, no time pressured. And that way, you will get a clear answer about the cause of original problem, clock "behaving". Of course, we all suspect it's due to battery, but if with another battery it won't "behave", you'll know for sure that that's the cause.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I don't think that the ability to retain the radio code is time limited, but of course, you could get surprised to discover it is.
But, I can suggest you something you can do and you will have no worries about code being lost. And also, you'll not mess around with Mrs. J's "stuff" and mind you, that is not a minor detail. So, you could swap a good battery on Becky (maybe from your car), and take the presumably faulty batery and charge it on the bench, no time pressured. And that way, you will get a clear answer about the cause of original problem, clock "behaving". Of course, we all suspect it's due to battery, but if with another battery it won't "behave", you'll know for sure that that's the cause.

Thanks Mike. Both the other batteries I have, the very large one I took out of my old Diesel Cordoba, which is now my "jumping" battery, and the one in my current Ibiza are far too big to fit the Panda battery tray. I'd be a bit worried about disconnecting the Ibiza battery anyway as it's coded to the vehicle - better left well alone I think! I could maybe borrow the one from my boy's Punto but, as he lives on the other side of town and needs it for his work journey that would be a bit difficult. What I might do is connect up the old Cordoba battery with jump leads just so power supply is maintained while I'm charging the Panda battery on the bench. I'm pretty sure the Panda battery is "tired" and will need to be replaced soon, especially now that the clock is behaving again after I twice had it on a standard charge. I would like to see if the recond charge might pick it up enough to get us through the summer before we have to lay out the money for a new one - especially with all these increases in living and heating costs about to hit us hard.

 

[Mike1alike]

Your plan sounds good.
I can give you another tip though. I don't know the exact configuration of stuff on your car's engine, but if you can use it, it's good to be aware of it.
You can remove the front panel of battery tray. That way, you can fit larger batteries. The previous owner of my Punto did this and there was a bigger battery, when I bought the car. The battery was at the end of it's life anyway and I replaced it very soon with a proper size battery. But I did put this one on a charger before this winter and a friend of mine had a spare battery that he let me use so I could use my car. It was way larger than usually Punto's battery tray, but with that front panel being removed, it fitted perfectly.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Thanks Mike. The standard fitment seems to be a 42ah job so I'll be very happy if I can get the 54ah battery which seems to be a standard fitment on the 100hp Panda to fit - It's pretty tight around the battery tray.

Although it can get a bit "chilly" at times up here in Scotland the climate is pretty temperate at most times so I'm not needing a "super large" battery. What's puzzling me is that the battery in her right now seems to be the larger capacity battery and probably the original fit. So if it's lasted for 12 years then a new one will probably outlast the remaining life of the car!

 

[portland_bill]

Thanks Mike. The standard fitment seems to be a 42ah job so I'll be very happy if I can get the 54ah battery which seems to be a standard fitment on the 100hp Panda to fit - It's pretty tight around the battery tray.

View attachment 401698

Although it can get a bit "chilly" at times up here in Scotland the climate is pretty temperate at most times so I'm not needing a "super large" battery. What's puzzling me is that the battery in her right now seems to be the larger capacity battery and probably the original fit. So if it's lasted for 12 years then a new one will probably outlast the remaining life of the car!

I'm a little worried about how close the CTEK is to the battery. Ideally, use all the cable length to gain more distance.
A few years ago, a letter to a magazine resulted in 'Star letter' and a prize of a battery charger, and Oxford brand I think, but almost identical to the CTEK.
Having no need for it at the time, I lent it to my brother, who charged his battery, in his kitchen, with the charger sat on top of the battery. Next morning, bits of battery and charger were embedded in the ceiling. Although 'sealed', there will be a vent pipe, and hydrogen gas likely emitted. When you think of every electrical item you can buy, it is supplied with the shortest (cheapest) cable length possible. Yet battery chargers come with quite long leads. There's a clue there.

On a happier note, Tayna Batteries do a very quick delivery, and good prices. Here's what's in mine. https://www.tayna.co.uk/car-batteries/exide/ea530/
Don't worry about batteries by post. They come very well packed, sealed in a bag, and protected by lots of polystyrene, in a sturdy box.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I'm a little worried about how close the CTEK is to the battery. Ideally, use all the cable length to gain more distance.
A few years ago, a letter to a magazine resulted in 'Star letter' and a prize of a battery charger, and Oxford brand I think, but almost identical to the CTEK.
Having no need for it at the time, I lent it to my brother, who charged his battery, in his kitchen, with the charger sat on top of the battery. Next morning, bits of battery and charger were embedded in the ceiling. Although 'sealed', there will be a vent pipe, and hydrogen gas likely emitted. When you think of every electrical item you can buy, it is supplied with the shortest (cheapest) cable length possible. Yet battery chargers come with quite long leads. There's a clue there.

On a happier note, Tayna Batteries do a very quick delivery, and good prices. Here's what's in mine. https://www.tayna.co.uk/car-batteries/exide/ea530/
Don't worry about batteries by post. They come very well packed, sealed in a bag, and protected by lots of polystyrene, in a sturdy box.

Good point about the positioning of the battery charger PB. What I've done there is bad practice! Not wishing to excuse that though, I would kill the power at the mains plug before going anywhere near the croc clips and CTECs are supposed to be "spark suppressed"? so if you disturb a connection you don't get a spark? However I can hear relays clicking inside it as it moves through it's initial testing sequences and on to the charging function. The case looks completely sealed but I'd rather not test it on that one! I'll go out and switch it off right now, give it a few minutes and then move it to the other side of the engine bay!

I seem to remember the article you refer to and I think it was in Car Mechanics Magazine?

Can't thank you enough for the recommendation for the battery. That looks like exactly the one I'm looking for, case size is identical, Capacity (ah) is up by 3ah (50 to 53) but the cranking amps are massively more 360 to 540 - that's progress for you, I've noticed how much CCA has gone up in newer batteries of late. The price is excellent. I'll be going for that one when the time comes - Thanks again, much appreciated. I'll go onto their site and have a more detailed look this evening. I'm assuming these guys know what they're doing as regards packing, they've been doing it for many years, but can I ask how well your delivery was packed? I believe they plug the vent so fluid leaks are unlikely but I'm just slightly nervous about the possibility of internal plate damage due to impacts if it's handled roughly during shipping?
regards
Jock

 

[chris3234]

D

Good point about the positioning of the battery charger PB. What I've done there is bad practice! Not wishing to excuse that though, I would kill the power at the mains plug before going anywhere near the croc clips and CTECs are supposed to be "spark suppressed"? so if you disturb a connection you don't get a spark? However I can hear relays clicking inside it as it moves through it's initial testing sequences and on to the charging function. The case looks completely sealed but I'd rather not test it on that one! I'll go out and switch it off right now, give it a few minutes and then move it to the other side of the engine bay!

I seem to remember the article you refer to and I think it was in Car Mechanics Magazine?

Can't thank you enough for the recommendation for the battery. That looks like exactly the one I'm looking for, case size is identical, Capacity (ah) is up by 3ah (50 to 53) but the cranking amps are massively more 360 to 540 - that's progress for you, I've noticed how much CCA has gone up in newer batteries of late. The price is excellent. I'll be going for that one when the time comes - Thanks again, much appreciated. I'll go onto their site and have a more detailed look this evening. I'm assuming these guys know what they're doing as regards packing, they've been doing it for many years, but can I ask how well your delivery was packed? I believe they plug the vent so fluid leaks are unlikely but I'm just slightly nervous about the possibility of internal plate damage due to impacts if it's handled roughly during shipping?
regards
Jock

Pretty unlikely to get internal damage with out a lot of damage to the box and the polystyrene I'd have thought