Technical Yet another TwinAir misfire right after an oil change.

[Louie Bee]

Punto TA just under 108K miles. Already had new clutch and DMF this year Grrr!!



So I changed the oil & filter a couple of weeks ago, air filter and so on. Used the correct grade of oil (5W40 C3) same Napa oil brand & grade as had been in since the previous change. I’ve cleaned the oil strainer in the Uniair brick a few times in years gone by, but didn’t bother this time as it’s been OK. Car road tested OK for me so job done so it seemed.



Next day the other half mentioned it was running rubbish, but took some time to work out the pattern that it happened at cold for a short while, then run faultless. Took even longer for me to experience of a 2 cylinder engine running with what appears to be a cylinder down, as it always behaved normal when I was around.



After 1 week running 5W40 C3 with a new UFI filter in I dropped the oil again and it was somehow black again after only 1 week. If you’d told me that oil had been in a petrol car 7 days there is no way I’d have believed you.



So I put a cheaper temporary Napa filter in and fresh 5W40 C3… run for an hour or so, then dropped the oil again and added some comma oil & fitted a Mann filter (which has been OK in this TA some years back).



I think my experience is slightly different to others as I have a regular P1062-71 fault code coinciding with crazy oil temperature around 950 – 1051 degrees.



On different days I’ve tried different things to see if it fixes the issue, but have to wait until the next day to start from cold.



Since the 3rd Oil change I’ve tried…

Cleaning the Uni Air Strainer (wasn’t too bad).

Recharging the battery.

Cleaning the ECU connectors, cleaning the connectors to the solenoids.

Resetting the oil change in the engine ECU. & the Italian Tune-up

This evening, I tried was tapping the faulty solenoid with a socket set extender bar 2 while executing the solenoid 2 actuator test in MES. Also cleaned the connections to the brick oil temperature sensor. Just waiting to see if that’s freed up the actuator.



I’ve been reading over on alfaowner.com about some oil additives - from post 12 here https://www.alfaowner.com/threads/multiair-misfire-fix-with-engine-flush-procedure.1209985



So I’m going to give MécaTech NCH Oil Flush and COBRA Hydraulic Care a go in the TwinAir. If they work or help in the multiAir, what have I got to lose… if I can get my hands on these products…

 

[Louie Bee]

Oh the MES stuff

 

[Louie Bee]

So my oil treatment kit is well on its way by Dutch post. Kevin at
dutchtechnicalsolutions.nl has been most helpful and pointed me in the right direction for the latest dupag process.

This is the kit which contains
mecaTec NCH, Accelerator and GDA
Link here to my kit. I used the contact form to check if they ship to UK.

Multi Air Module Reiniging set - Dutch Technical Solutions

Multi Air Module Reiniging set CBS-400-003 Een complete set om de multi air module te reinigen. 1-handige set met alle producten om uw Multi Air Module te reinigen. Bijgevoegd een duidelijk overzicht hoe u te werk gaat om de module zo effectief mogelijk te reinigen. Dit overzicht vindt uw bij...

dutchtechnicalsolutions.nl

The process (and cause of misfire after oil change) is explained here over at dupag. English is a little off perhaps due to translation software but is clear enough & easier than leaning another language...

AMT stap voor stap Twin Air | Dupag Group B.V.

www.dupag.nl

So the problem can be caused by changing oil without getting it to running temperatures for our TwinAir?

 

[varesecrazy]

Interesting..

 

[Louie Bee]

Video from today. The issue isn't lasting as long as it was. The shaking engine/ nasty sounds for a TwinAir were lasting a couple of minutes. This is about normal before treatment.

Post Lady delivered my parcel so when the other half gets home I'm gonna be sucking about 600ml of oil and adding the MecaTech NCH MT024H. Think the H suffix is the bottle language as I think it's just in Dutch and it carries the Dupag logo.

 

[Louie Bee]

Out with some oil which is easier said than done

Unbelievable it's black again.


& in with the first product

Been for a 30 mile drive after cleaning the error code again a so far so good but wouldn't really know until tomorrow morning & it's probably early days as still lots to do.

 

[Zardo]

I don't know why there are three bottles of engine flush treatment. I did several times an engine flush on my Punto multiair immediately before changing the oil, it was only one bottle, 500 ml like 10 min engine idling as recommended for my product, and once I even drove around the block during 5 min after the flush was in, but only with low revs (like under 1500/min) and at slow speeds with basically almost no power beyond idle power. That wasn't recommended. Then I drove it the few meters down to the lift. The result was a very clean engine, and there was no fuss with the multiair function.

However, I did the flush because sometimes (intermittently, depending on ambient temperatures) the multiair would not tolerate revving the engine beyond 1500 RPM when cold, it would start to shudder and shake. I had a code specific for the affected multiair cylinder number. After replacing the spark plugs (no effect), changing the oil (no effect), cleaining the multiair unit special oil filter in brake cleaner (no effect, but actually was a bit dirty and after cleaning it looked like new), changing the oil again with an engine flush (no effect), I finally changed the multiair unit and it turned out one of the 4 actuator levers was no longer connected to its little piston (when taking the unit out, it fell between the valve springs in a recess where it disappeared from view, I only found it after manually fingering all the recesses). So changing the multiair unit got permanently rid of the problem. Hopefully you don't have a defective Twinair.

But I wouldn't use an oil additive on the Twinair or Multiair to "decrease the friction" as it says on the little bottle of your kit. The engine ECU doesn't know the viscosity of the engine oil, it estimates it by calculating the viscosity based on fast and frequent engine temperature readouts. So if you put an engine oil with differing viscosity parameters in, the timing of the actuators and therefore the intake valves will be slightly off. This might affect idling and engine efficacy. You would need to modify the base viscosity as pre-programmed in the ECU so it can calculate the correct values again. Same goes with any additive which claims to "decrease friction". It might have a slight impact on the oil volume/time ratio available to the Twinair actuators to make the intake valves move.

Maybe your car has another problem altogether and my rant isn't that useful. Who knows.

 

[Louie Bee]

Hi @Zardo

I found the product & process by doing research and other MultiAir owners have had success according to the Alfa forum and have used a post clean additive. They added a third product for better results?

I thought i was trialing it on a TwinAir but turns out Dupag already wrote an article so I'm following the Dupag recommendation which has 3 parts / products to it. Link again incase you missed it and it answers your opening statement along with mentioning "Fresh oil only enters the Twin-Air control block during deceleration."

AMT stap voor stap Twin Air | Dupag Group B.V.

www.dupag.nl

I've no idea what you used but oil additive safe to drive on is rare.

The first adaptive IS safe to drive on... Go for 300km it says & I've given it some tuff driving with it in and intend to carry on working the first part of the process. The second adaptive i won't be driving with in the engine, just 1.5k reves for a couple of hours, then an oil change followed by MecaTec GDA evolution.

I'm not replacing the Uni Air brick as it is far too expensive compared to the car's value. The full oil cleaning process will cost about £100 so if it doesn't fix my issue i don't really care. I'm not spending the wrong side of £1000 on the part. I'm fully aware other things could be causing my problem but there is no lower level service option so the car was scrap before trying the 3 part clean process.

Don't know if your issue started after an oil change as you've not said or what your fault codes were. My symptoms align really well with the dupag process so I'm going to follow it to the letter. Both TwinAir and MultiAir have an inline oil strainer and I've kept mine clean over the years so I know I've not had oil starvation which can cause both units to fail.

 

[Zardo]

I my case, the multiair issue started before ever doing an engine flush, the car had about 100 k miles. It was very insidious and intermittent, and went completely away every time the engine was hot enough. I must have driven at least 30 000 km with an (in retrospect) defective multiair unit. The engine code was P1063 and I had cleared it several times, it kept coming up. It also cleared itself after a while.

Oil was always changed hot by opening the drain plug and always with an oil filter change.

I did use a Liqui Moly product for the engine flush. It’s not recommended to drive with the flush in, nor to rev the engine. Nor to leave the flush in over night. Have it idling for 10 min, then change the oil.
I poured the flush in after the engine was hot. First time I let the engine idle but revved it briefly several times for a few seconds to about 2000 RPM just to get more oil pressure (without driving around). Then the oil and oilfilter change and the multiair strainer cleaning. The second time (a year later) same procedure, but drove around for 5 min on the flat doing 30 km/h in fourth or fifth gear, so the engine was below 1500 RPM.

The engine flush didn’t solve my multiair issue, but when I finally changed the brick, it did look very clean (from the outside).

By the way, it’s possible to fill the brick directly with oil, there is a small valve on top of it. I filled the new unit with oil using that valve and a pressurized oil dispenser, but it’s a bit messy.

In theory one could apply the flush directly to the unit but this might disturb valve timing if the viscosity isn’t the same and also might damage the unit if the engine was run with a brick full of engine flush.

"Only fresh oil enters the Twin-Air control unit during deceleration." - I believe that’s BS.

There are two ways to fill an empty newly fitted brick with oil.

1. Use the valve and manually fill it (recommended)

If the UNIAIR module is replaced with a new one, it must be filled with engine oil for the first time, using a suitable tool to compress the valve ball shown in the figure. The oil quantity for the first filling is about 80 cc.

2. Crank the engine several times, total time necessary will be about 20 to 30 seconds, the oil pump of the engine will slowly fill it, once it’s filled, the engine will start.

Actually, if the car sits for several months, the oil might partially drain out of the brick and a longer crank time than usual will be needed to refill it with engine oil.

 

[Tropicalmike]

In my opinion resetting the oil change in MES is the same reset as fitting a new uniair. So your engine now thinks it is back as new with new oil. For sure a dodgy uniair oil temp sensor will cause problems. If the uniair is worn it is more susceptible to have sticky solenoids when cold. New oil viscosity will be higher than old oil , I would suggest trying 0w30 when you have finished the additive experiment to give lower viscosity.
My TA is euro6 so uses 0w30 but I did an experiment with 5W40 and it made my misfire issue worse with the cold engine. The oil I removed was a lower viscosity than fresh 0w30.

 

[Louie Bee]

I’d guess P1063 is not applicable to Twinair if P1062 is for Cylinder 2, and P1061 is for Cyl 1… P1063 would likely be same fault for Cyl 3, P1064 for cyl 4 so only seen on MultiAir.

Did you also swap / clean the secret oil strainer online with the uniair brick? It’s not in the service schedule but can cause oil starvation. It’s in a different location and I think on later engines you have to remove the Uni Air module to clean it (bl**dy stupid)!!

Regarding fresh oil entering, it could well be that Google translate has lost the context as it is likely written in Dutch.


Download this leaflet that @The Panda Nut found and uploaded some time ago for a fuller description of the system https://www.fiatforum.com/downloads/twin-air-unit-explanation-leaflet.432/



Page 6 states “For as long as the cam is on the base circle the mechanical pressure accumulator ensures that any oil forced out of the high pressure chamber is returned to it. The pressure accumulator also serves to supply the system volume with exactly the amount of oil required for the next cycle..”

High-pressure chamber / actuator is the bit I’m trying to clean and if the same oil is going back and fourth it's going to be hard to clean along with the slave cylinder & pump element. This likley explains why soaking the entier uniair brick can not clean past the solenoid / into the high pressure chamber, and maybe why yours fell to bits having being used with muck in there for too long? Even that don't explain the oil strainer so there is more to the setup than in this high level info leaflet.

Perhaps Dupag means to say that fresh oil only gets into the “High-pressure chamber” (past the solenoid valve?) during deceleration, where Intermediate pressure chamber maybe has constant fresh oil supply, which is likely the section that is primed when it’s drained / first fit.


I get that you’ve used a different product and the instructions are valid only for the Liquid Moly. You wouldn’t read the instructions on an iPhone if you were using an android? Same thing here with my different product, I’m driving 200 miles + with the NCH in. It has the consistence of oil, where the other 2 products sound more water like in the bottles.


The error code I see is not putting the car into limp mode, lighting the engine management light or disabling the stop start. I only know I have the error as I spotted it in MES. I want to correct it before it turns into a big problem like you’ve seen. A stitch in time saves 9

 

[Louie Bee]

@Tropicalmike I do worry I have a faulty oil temprature sensor. I don't know if the engine has 2 oil temp sensors as the temprature looks OK in MES if I drive and record a graph of oil and air temprature. Maybe I need to hook it up before the first start of the day to see what happens. I think it was a 2 pin temprature sensor so perhaps a resistance check would confirm it not gone open or short circuit (probabley short circuit if resistance decreases with temprature, but I could check resistance with cold and hot engine).

I believe ECU modifies the solenoid opening time based on (amongst other things) oil temprature as it is expecting oil to flow in & out at a certain rate where runnyness is a function of temprature (ok I made that up but why else would there be an oil temprature sensor)

Damit, page 13 of this explains it is another oil temp sensor https://www.fiatforum.com/downloads/twin-air-unit-explanation-leaflet.432/

I think I will stick with the original oil spec as I don't want to mask the running cold issue.

 

[Tropicalmike]

My 500 TA only has the one oil temp sensor located in the uniair. It is very near the solenoids. It looks like it is in the oil flow where oil enters the uniair coming up from the engine block. I think the sensor is a thermistor that is quicker to react than other type temp sensors. Not sure if is positive or negative coefficient thermistor. But I have the old one if you need me to make a little test. Of course a TA on a panto might have two sensors.

This is the link to my saga about my uniair misbehaving after I changed my oil in case you hadn't seen it. https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/twin-air-misfire-after-oil-change.508278/post-4747445.

I fully understand what you say about cost of a new uniair and value of the car. I only suggest using 0w30 in order that you might get a bit more life from engine with less trouble free cold start.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Reading the tech explanation leaflet has made me decide to stick rigidly to the exact specified oil. The oil recommended may have an additive package that is specific and important to the engine. My dealer offered to do flush at each oil change when I pointed out the wads of mayo in the engine. Im reluctant to do this too often as who knows where flushing oil may end up and how much remains after draining, specifically within the twinair unit. I think occasional flushing may benefit the engine as it clearly runs wet, with a lot of crank case pressure and a lot of mayo in the upper engine. I feel that changing the oil at 5000 mile intervals is the way to go to counter sludge build up. I wont run anything other than FPT oil filters either. This is one high tech engine and it probably needs pampering to keep it sweet. For the few extra £s it may take Im up for that.

ePER specifically stated DO NOT clean the uniair unit filter its not designed to be removed or cleaned. While I dont rule out cleaning it, I reckon you need to be SURGICALLY clean and ensure absolutely no dust or dirts can possibly contaminate things. 1 speck of extraneous dirt from outside getting into the uniair is likely far more damaging than any microsopic particles it traps will be. I would say vacuum the area, blow with compressed air, clean with carb or brake cleaner, vac and blow again, then start work. The point seems to be that its a very fine filter to collect things that the oil filter misses, so remove / contaminate things at your peril. Im more inclined to clean the sump and oil pickup filter. If the uniair filter is removed, ePER says replace it. In view of the very fine tolerances and the specific recommendations Im inclined to take note. It leads me back to the best maintenance being early oil changes.

 

[Tropicalmike]

Having looked and cleaned a uniair oil filter I would say the mesh is larger than the paper/membrane in the main oil filter and is just to there as a safety net to stop any crud that might get dislodged from oil ways after the main oil filter to protect the uniair. The reason Fiat say change it is mostly to do with the O ring that seals it deteriorating and it might not reseal and then crud could get past it.
Of course, general good cleanliness , quality filter brand and proper oil is paramount to keeping a TA in good order.

 

[Louie Bee]

My 500 TA only has the one oil temp sensor located in the uniair. It is very near the solenoids. It looks like it is in the oil flow where oil enters the uniair coming up from the engine block. I think the sensor is a thermistor that is quicker to react than other type temp sensors. Not sure if is positive or negative coefficient thermistor. But I have the old one if you need me to make a little test. Of course a TA on a panto might have two sensors.

This is the link to my saga about my uniair misbehaving after I changed my oil in case you hadn't seen it. https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/twin-air-misfire-after-oil-change.508278/post-4747445.

I fully understand what you say about cost of a new uniair and value of the car. I only suggest using 0w30 in order that you might get a bit more life from engine with less trouble free cold start.

Thanks, Yes I read your troubles too, but I think I missed that you had P1051 not P1061 / P1062 error code in MES and P1051 is engine management light on issue, where P1061 / P1062 seems to just happen in the background unless it also detects a missfire, I think that it detects the misfire only if driving before it has warmed up.

I think I'll measure the oil temp resistance over the weekend cold & warm and come back to you with the readings. Do you have an ohm meter / multi meter to check resistance along with ambient outdoor temprature and a cup of boiling water to measure resistance cold and hot to compare to?

I'm not sure if there is another oil temprature sensor on the Punto, in Elearn it mentions an oil pressure switch on the TA Oil Filter housing, and a solenoid on the oil pump (main in sump Oil pump I believe).

 

[Louie Bee]

More on oil not continuously circulating through the TA so no BS.

The following figure shows a simplified diagram of the actuator internal oil circuit describing what happens when the engine is started. The oil from the engine pump flows through channel 2 to the high section of the container placed at the actuator inlet; any trapped air is separated and discharged through the bleed hole 1a. The oil is taken from the bottom of container 1 and, through a check valve 3, is fed to the medium pressure circuit of the actuator of each cylinder. The oil reaches a second container 4 where the air possibly still contained in the oil is bled through the hole 4a. Through channel 7, the container 4 is connected to a hydraulic accumulator 9. By means of piston 8 and the action of spring 10, at the next cycle this accumulator restores the oil volume discharged from the high pressure chamber during standard engine valve operation.

From the bottom of container 4 oil is fed to the high pressure chamber C through the connection 6 and the solenoid valve 11.

The TWINAIR module supply is guaranteed by a dedicated hydraulic line, starting from the main engine oil channel and reaching container 1 directly.

Therefore the oil circuit of the TWINAIR module is not closed: a limited and controlled oil quantity flows inside the module. This is necessary to guarantee that the oil is deaerated and changed to limit the operating temperatures in the high pressure chambers.

The oil flow through the module has been carefully designed and dimensioned to ensure the complete functionality of the system in every engine operating condition. The functional limits of the system are within the oil temperature range (-30°C and 150°C) in the high pressure chamber; these limits are complied with in every engine operating condition.

In order to delay the draining of the TwinAir module due to a prolonged period in which the engine is stopped, the machining tolerances of the module have been revised and O-rings with a greater thickness have been added to the intake valve actuators.

 

[Zardo]

I'm not sure if there is another oil temprature sensor on the Punto, in Elearn it mentions an oil pressure switch on the TA Oil Filter housing, and a solenoid on the oil pump (main in sump Oil pump I believe).

The Elearn says: " Oil temperature NTC sensor connector" Negative Temperature Coefficient Thermistor right on the TA module, looks like it measures the oil temperature inside the TA

Ntc temperature sensor: 1 per module​

Function: it measures the oil temperature in the actuator high pressure chamber. This measurement is used to evaluate the engine oil viscosity.

Components: sensor body, metal gasket, electrical connector.

 

[Tropicalmike]

Thanks, Yes I read your troubles too, but I think I missed that you had P1051 not P1061 / P1062 error code in MES and P1051 is engine management light on issue, where P1061 / P1062 seems to just happen in the background unless it also detects a missfire, I think that it detects the misfire only if driving before it has warmed up.

I think I'll measure the oil temp resistance over the weekend cold & warm and come back to you with the readings. Do you have an ohm meter / multi meter to check resistance along with ambient outdoor temprature and a cup of boiling water to measure resistance cold and hot to compare to?

I'm not sure if there is another oil temprature sensor on the Punto, in Elearn it mentions an oil pressure switch on the TA Oil Filter housing, and a solenoid on the oil pump (main in sump Oil pump I believe).

I can do the temp tests and measure ohms. NTC means resistance goes down as temp rises. Also have a digital temp gun.

 

[Louie Bee]

Brillient & thanks!!

That reminds me I also have a digital temp gun too. Just the 1 oil temprature sensor on the Punto so it seems