General Winter Tyres (Again)

[Dan Friel]

Completely pointless to buy them then. We're not going to see any snow in the near future, but once it hits there will be little or no snow.

If I was looking for winter tyres, then yes I agree.. however, I'm not (the weather down here is rarely that bad, if it is and I have to move, then we have a more suitable bit of kit). Will need some new summer tyres in a couple of months time, and the links provided are very useful.

 

[RobW]

Couldn't agree more. The sipes on a winter tyre are gone at 3 or 4mm anyway so they're more or less useless on snow and ice then. Tbh when my winter tyres get to that stage I'm just going to run them through the summer till they're worn out, Continental's recommendation is that if you're on a budget you run winter tyres all year round. Whilst they will wear quickly, you're not going to get stuck going up a hill on a particularly warm, sunny, dry day now are you? Someone on the 500 winter tyre thread made it sound like winter tyres were horrendous in the summer and that I had a death wish if I finished the life of my winter tyres off in this manner. I just don't see the point in getting rid at 3 or 4mm when a tyre still has some life to give

Winter tyres above 15 degC quickly turn to a greasy nightmare to drive on, and perform significantly worse than summer tyres. You really don't want to go there, especially if you have over 100 bhp

I have a 4mm set of winters I am gonna use up in November and a fresh set to put on when the snow drops

 

[306maxi]

Winter tyres above 15 degC quickly turn to a greasy nightmare to drive on, and perform significantly worse than summer tyres. You really don't want to go there, especially if you have over 100 bhp

I have a 4mm set of winters I am gonna use up in November and a fresh set to put on when the snow drops

Yes, but I have 69bhp.

Anyway they're only terrible if they've still got the sipes because of all the flexing the tread does because of them. Once the sipes are gone they're a lot more stable on dry tarmac. I'm not expecting the same performance as summer tyres and I certainly won't be driving enthusiastically on them. They'll just be there to stop the wheels scraping on the ground. If I get a couple of thousand miles out of them then that's a couple of thousand miles less the summer tyres have to do.

 

[RobW]

Yes, but I have 69bhp.

Anyway they're only terrible if they've still got the sipes because of all the flexing the tread does because of them. Once the sipes are gone they're a lot more stable on dry tarmac. I'm not expecting the same performance as summer tyres and I certainly won't be driving enthusiastically on them. They'll just be there to stop the wheels scraping on the ground. If I get a couple of thousand miles out of them then that's a couple of thousand miles less the summer tyres have to do.

disappointing advice

use summer tyres in summer and winter tyres in winter
it's that simple

 

[306maxi]

disappointing advice

use summer tyres in summer and winter tyres in winter
it's that simple

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/products/total_tyre_guide/259435/winter_tyre_test.html

Some tyre makers, such as Continental, even suggest using a winter tyre all year round as the safest option if your budget doesn’t stretch to a second set.

Hmmmm who do I believe? A guy on a forum or a well respected tyre company?

Yes I know the summer tyres will be better, but I will just drive accordingly.

 

[RobW]

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/products/total_tyre_guide/259435/winter_tyre_test.html




Hmmmm who do I believe? A guy on a forum or a well respected tyre company?

Yes I know the summer tyres will be better, but I will just drive accordingly.

the best advise is clear advice, you are confusing things with a mixed message

edit

I would rather listen to an independant test body than a tyre manufacturer who is trying to increase sales of winter tyres

http://www.ama.ab.ca/images/cms/auto-driving/CAA-effectiveness-of-winter-tires-in-summer-2008.pdf

 

[Agrajak]

If it snows that badly, or the weather is that bad, I'll leave the car safely at home.

Even with winter tyres on your car, it is the rest of the population without them that are very likely to slide into you!

 

[306maxi]

the best advise is clear advice, you are confusing things with a mixed message

Whatever Rob, if Conti feel that the advice they are giving will keep people relatively safe then I'll go with that. It's very unlike to think that you know better than a well respected tyre company isn't it

 

[306maxi]

If it snows that badly, or the weather is that bad, I'll leave the car safely at home.

Even with winter tyres on your car, it is the rest of the population without them that are very likely to slide into you!

If it snows that badly you will end up being more or less the only one on the road.

You also ignore the advantages that winter tyres give when it's not necessarily snowy.......

 

[Geddes]

Even with winter tyres on your car, it is the rest of the population without them that are very likely to slide into you!

Depends when it snows. If it snows during the day you get stuck behind everyone else.
But if it snows overnight everyone else stays in bed and you get the whole road to yourself. Yay!

As for winter tyres in the summer, obviously all-season tyres are the best compromise. The Hankook Optimo 4S I ran last year got a quite favourable review in that AutoExpress link.

Otherwise winter tyres in summer are closer to summer tyres than summer tyres are to winter tyres when it's cold.
At what point do you call it dangerous? Even on winters Maxi's 500 probably still has more grip than my Panda would have had on summer tyres.

 

[Dan Friel]

You need to be a little careful about overstating the possible benefits of winter tyres. Manufacturers will obviously state that winters can be used "all year round". This convinces buyers that they are suitable for all conditions and they're worth buying whatever the winter throws at us. It's simple marketing.

However, the latest tests do show that even in cold wet and dry conditions you may be better off with summer tyres. There is certainly a significant disadvantage when using winters in the dry. Some parts of the UK usually have less than 5 days worth of snow and less than 30 wet winter days, so if you're using winter tyres you could be on the wrong type of tyre for the majority of the time. Not something that the manufactuers will spell out - far too complex. Winter tyres would of course be much more suitable in colder parts of the UK and continental Europe, and are very much needed.

As for using winter tyres in the summer....

 

[tarbyonline]

Remember winter tyres also have advantages in the wet as well as the compound being more suited to the lower temperatures, etc. They are marked M+S (Mud and snow) not just snow! However how often does the temperature drop below the optimum 7 degree point for winter tyres to be most suitable

Personally I will be running my "summer" tyres during the winter but this is due to cost and I would consider winters for at least part of the season if I had the cash. However, in the heavy (for the UK) snow/ice I have found the Panda with its tiny 13" wheels handles a lot better than the astra with its chunkier 15's as it quite literally cuts through the snow with the narrow profile.

Another thing to consider is that not all summer tyres are created equal with some being better in rain than others and thats not even considering TDF's. For example I have more confidence in the Hankook K715's in the wet than the marangonni's I now have on the front. Besides, we only get 2 weeks of "summer" in this country compared to much of continental europe! For example when I asked a collegue from Poland what she missed most about home she said the nice summers!!!! As for all season tyres, you need to find someone who sells them first! I guess what I am saying is that in the grand scheme of things our summers arent really summers and our winters arent really winter in the extreme sense. Parts of Scotland of course are excepted.

 

[306maxi]

You need to be a little careful about overstating the possible benefits of winter tyres. Manufacturers will obviously state that winters can be used "all year round". This convinces buyers that they are suitable for all conditions and they're worth buying whatever the winter throws at us. It's simple marketing.

However, the latest tests do show that even in cold wet and dry conditions you may be better off with summer tyres. There is certainly a significant disadvantage when using winters in the dry. Some parts of the UK usually have less than 5 days worth of snow and less than 30 wet winter days, so if you're using winter tyres you could be on the wrong type of tyre for the majority of the time. Not something that the manufactuers will spell out - far too complex. Winter tyres would of course be much more suitable in colder parts of the UK and continental Europe, and are very much needed.

As for using winter tyres in the summer....

LOL just LOL.

You've got a funny way of interpreting results. Have you read the latest EVO?

The winter tyres reigned supreme on snow of course. On the circuit in seb 7 degree temps they were better in the wet and in the dry they were still within 10-15% of the summer tyres.

Braking from 25mph to a stop on snow.

1 Conti Winter 19.7 metres
2 Goodyear Winter 19.9 metres
3 Dunlop Winter 20.0 metres
9 Kumho 27 metres
10 Conti Summer 72.7 metres

That is a ridiculous failing of the tyre which other areas like dry grip simply can't make up for.

Overall in the dry ALL of the tyres tested were within 8% of the top score (the Conti summer) so in the dry you're not losing out by much, but in the wet and in the snow you are gaining a loooooad of performance.

You also seem to forget that nobody ever got stuck in the dry because they've got winter tyres on. Loads of people get stuck because they;ve got summer tyres on and there's loads of snow about......

As for using winter tyres in the summer, do you honestly think that a big company like Continental would recommend it if they were a deathtrap in the summer? Nice to see Rob clicking the dislike button with all of his might

 

[Dan Friel]

Yup, I subscribe to EVO. Found the tyre results very interesting.

90% of my driving is in the dry, and I want the best tyre for the conditions. In the wet I'm used to altering my driving style to match conditions and want to know that I have the right tyre if the car aquaplanes. The summer tyres suits, and the results confirm this. If it snows (and it isn't cleared), then the car might well not move at all. I don't want to be crashed into.

Everyone needs to interpret the results to suit their own driving ability and situation. It's not "one size fits all".

I'm not sure anyone is claiming that winter tyres are a "deathtrap" in dry conditions, but I bought a 100HP for fun and poor tyres would kill it.

 

[306maxi]

Yup, I subscribe to EVO. Found the tyre results very interesting.

90% of my driving is in the dry, and I want the best tyre for the conditions. In the wet I'm used to altering my driving style to match conditions and want to know that I have the right tyre if the car aquaplanes. The summer tyres suits, and the results confirm this. If it snows (and it isn't cleared), then the car might well not move at all. I don't want to be crashed into.

Everyone needs to interpret the results to suit their own driving ability and situation. It's not "one size fits all".

I'm not sure anyone is claiming that winter tyres are a "deathtrap" in dry conditions, but I bought a 100HP for fun and poor tyres would kill it.

Well as one member found out, a 100hp in the winter on summer tyres isn't much fun. Complete new front left corner later......

Just as you can drive around the deficiencies of summer tyres in cold and wet conditions, I can drive around the deficiencies of worn winter tyres in the summer.

I don't know where you live in the UK, but for 90% of your winter driving to be dry it must be somewhere special.

 

[RobW]

Well said

If you want an all-round compromise then buy all season tyres

Other than that use the season specific tyres as intended, recognising the limitations, there is a cross over section where they will nit be the optimal choice.
But continuing to argue winter tyres are fine in the summer is idiotic, it's as appropriate as using slicks on standing water.

Take today, on my commute is was 6 deg and dry this am, 7 deg and wet on way home. I might have been better on winter tyres. But actually it was totally safe on the summers. You just drive accordingly in transitional conditions.

You need to be a little careful about overstating the possible benefits of winter tyres. Manufacturers will obviously state that winters can be used "all year round". This convinces buyers that they are suitable for all conditions and they're worth buying whatever the winter throws at us. It's simple marketing.

However, the latest tests do show that even in cold wet and dry conditions you may be better off with summer tyres. There is certainly a significant disadvantage when using winters in the dry. Some parts of the UK usually have less than 5 days worth of snow and less than 30 wet winter days, so if you're using winter tyres you could be on the wrong type of tyre for the majority of the time. Not something that the manufactuers will spell out - far too complex. Winter tyres would of course be much more suitable in colder parts of the UK and continental Europe, and are very much needed.

As for using winter tyres in the summer....

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

.

However, the latest tests do show that even in cold wet and dry conditions you may be better off with summer tyres.

Where are these test results? (not sure if I've missed them)

Simple fact is that be is dry, wet or icy / snow, below 7c regular summer tyres start to harden up significantly, so explain how they can be better even in the dry because I very confused!

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

However how often does the temperature drop below the optimum 7 degree point for winter tyres to be most suitable

Well is 3.5C outside as I speak, and was 5 on the way to and from work today, so most of winter I'd say

 

[Hellcat]

Mate at work has been driving all summer in his 530D on Nokian winter tyres. Hardly noticeable difference in anything except hot and wet conditions. Even that combination isn't a significant change over summer tyres.

The difference he has seen is these have done over a year's driving and still have over 6mm remaining and cost him £90 a corner. The equivalent run-flat summer tyres were £225. He can drive on snow like he would in summer in the wet. Not bad for a car that couldn't get out the flat carpark the summer before.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

Mate at work has been driving all summer in his 530D on Nokian winter tyres. Hardly noticeable difference in anything except hot and wet conditions. Even that combination isn't a significant change over summer tyres.

The difference he has seen is these have done over a year's driving and still have over 6mm remaining and cost him £90 a corner. The equivalent run-flat summer tyres were £225. He can drive on snow like he would in summer in the wet. Not bad for a car that couldn't get out the flat carpark the summer before.

What are they like in hot wet conditions