Technical Windscreen wiper controls separate from lights or not

[666tomanderson]

Hello all, I've got a 2008 3.0l 160? multijet Ducato and have an intermittent problem with the wipers. According to members here, it is likely a gunked up switch that is operated by the windscreen wiper stalk. I'd like to remove, inspect and clean the windscreen wiper switch but can't figure out if the lights switch and windscreen wiper switch are a single assembly or are two separate parts that clip together somehow.

Has anybody managed to remove just the windscreen wiper switch? Is so, any tips on how to proceed please?

Thanks for all and any suggestions!

 

[bugsymike]

Hello all, I've got a 2008 3.0l 160? multijet Ducato and have an intermittent problem with the wipers. According to members here, it is likely a gunked up switch that is operated by the windscreen wiper stalk. I'd like to remove, inspect and clean the windscreen wiper switch but can't figure out if the lights switch and windscreen wiper switch are a single assembly or are two separate parts that clip together somehow.

Has anybody managed to remove just the windscreen wiper switch? Is so, any tips on how to proceed please?

Thanks for all and any suggestions!
View attachment 466304

I think you will find it is a complete unit with both sets of stalks as assuming you have airbag in steering wheel the "squib" which transmits the power to the airbag has to revolve around with the steering wheel and even if no airbag as some vans didn't, the switch mechanism is probably built accordingly.
Incidentally in case you are unaware, disconnect battery and wait for a 15 minutes or so before working with airbags as people have been killed by them going off with face near steering wheel!!!
Just to give you an idea what I mean this is off a 2010 Fiat Doblo so you can see the two switches but also the airbag "squib" arrangement that sits around the steering wheel.
You could try spraying electrical switch cleaner spray in any holes and working it vigorously, it may work though modern switches are not designed to be repaired.

 

[666tomanderson]

I think you will find it is a complete unit with both sets of stalks as assuming you have airbag in steering wheel the "squib" which transmits the power to the airbag has to revolve around with the steering wheel and even if no airbag as some vans didn't, the switch mechanism is probably built accordingly.
Incidentally in case you are unaware, disconnect battery and wait for a 15 minutes or so before working with airbags as people have been killed by them going off with face near steering wheel!!!
Just to give you an idea what I mean this is off a 2010 Fiat Doblo so you can see the two switches but also the airbag "squib" arrangement that sits around the steering wheel.
You could try spraying electrical switch cleaner spray in any holes and working it vigorously, it may work though modern switches are not designed to be repaired.

Thanks bugsymike ... I've got a left hand indicator that doesn't auto cancel so I guess that will be addressed also if I replace the whole mechanism. Two birds with the one stone. I'll also do as you suggest and try to get some electrical switch spray into the mechanism.

And .. thanks for the warning about the airbag wanting to smash me in the face.

 

[Communicator]

I think you will find it is a complete unit with both sets of stalks as assuming you have airbag in steering wheel the "squib" which transmits the power to the airbag has to revolve around with the steering wheel and even if no airbag as some vans didn't, the switch mechanism is probably built accordingly.
Incidentally in case you are unaware, disconnect battery and wait for a 15 minutes or so before working with airbags as people have been killed by them going off with face near steering wheel!!!
Just to give you an idea what I mean this is off a 2010 Fiat Doblo so you can see the two switches but also the airbag "squib" arrangement that sits around the steering wheel.
You could try spraying electrical switch cleaner spray in any holes and working it vigorously, it may work though modern switches are not designed to be repaired.

I agree. From examining a now old switch assembly originally from an Alfa 147, and from which I removed the added on cruise control switch, the remainder (lights and wipere are not separable. Further there is little to be gained by removing the assembly from the column.
The x250 operates both lights and wipers via the body compuer module, using resitive encoding to reduce the number of wires.

Attached is acopy of the wiper wiring diagram, which was originally postrd by @Anthony489. While resistor values are not quoted, I have seen them posted by another member. Even witout the resistance values, it should be possible to check the operation of the switch, by checking for decreasing reistance values between connector pins A1 (wipers) and A4 (earth) as the switch is moved from off to full speed.

 

[666tomanderson]

I agree. From examining a now old switch assembly originally from an Alfa 147, and from which I removed the added on cruise control switch, the remainder (lights and wipere are not separable. Further there is little to be gained by removing the assembly from the column.
The x250 operates both lights and wipers via the body compuer module, using resitive encoding to reduce the number of wires.

Attached is acopy of the wiper wiring diagram, which was originally postrd by @Anthony489. While resistor values are not quoted, I have seen them posted by another member. Even witout the resistance values, it should be possible to check the operation of the switch, by checking for decreasing reistance values between connector pins A1 (wipers) and A4 (earth) as the switch is moved from off to full speed.

Thanks Communicator .. that explains why I only see the whole assembly advertised on Ebay. I'll hire an auto electrician if I need to do anything with the wiring apart from plugging the connections in.

Thanks again!

 

[NeilDD]

@666tomanderson
Just to make you aware (Having watched a similar problem on a YouTube video) it maybe the clockspring that's causing the problem.

 

[Communicator]

@666tomanderson
Just to make you aware (Having watched a similar problem on a YouTube video) it maybe the clockspring that's causing the problem.

I am sorry, but as I see it the clock spring(s) ar used where a connection has to be made to something that turne with the steering wheel. Airbag, and horn button being fairly standard examples. The wiper and lighting switches are clamped in a fixed position, so I cannot see why a clock spring would be involved.

I have re-examined my old Alfa 147 column switch unit. It may be possible to remove 4 screws and prise up clips securing the cover, bur this would require prior steering wheel removal. Better then to unplug, and unclamp switch unit, and open on bench....... Pandora's box comes to mind.

 

[bugsymike]

I agree with @Communicator, I would be happy to be proved wrong but the bit about the clockspring is "bo**ocks, which is why I didn't bother to reply initially.
Just because it is on utube doesn't make it gospel.

 

[NeilDD]

On most modern vehicle the clockspring includes a steering angle sensor which sends the signal to the BCM to cancel the indicators.
Mechanical cancelling of indicators disappeared around 10-12 years ago with the introduction of much more complex can bus systems.

So it's not bo**ocks Mike, but a provable fact

 

[Communicator]

On most modern vehicle the clockspring includes a steering angle sensor which sends the signal to the BCM to cancel the indicators.
Mechanical cancelling of indicators disappeared around 10-12 years ago with the introduction of much more complex can bus systems.

So it's not bo**ocks Mike, but a provable fact

A forum is by definition a place to share information. So why were you being so economical with the facts, instead of explaining? Mike has a wealth of practical and technical knowledge, which he is willing to share. I am sure that many forum members are most grateful for his input.

 

[666tomanderson]

Thanks for all the responses. I previously did a search on YouTube and found a somewhat relevant video (Quick Guide Wiper Stalk Removal Repair Vauxhall Vivaro Renault Traffic .. ) but it was not similar at all to the mechanism on mine, hence my question to the esteemed members of this forum. Very telling (in my opinion) was one of the comments "Why not buy one on Ebay?" I think that is good advice and advice that has also been provided in this thread.

 

[bugsymike]

On most modern vehicle the clockspring includes a steering angle sensor which sends the signal to the BCM to cancel the indicators.
Mechanical cancelling of indicators disappeared around 10-12 years ago with the introduction of much more complex can bus systems.

So it's not bo**ocks Mike, but a provable fact

In fairness it was around that time that I retired from the Motor Trade after around 50 odd years and at least up till then it was all mechanical cancelling.
More to the point are you saying that the clock spring to activate the steering wheel Airbag is not applicable in modern column switches, if so how does it transmit the power required to trigger the Air Bag?
If still used then the steering wheel removal detail is still relevant for working on the indicator/lighting stalks.

 

[NeilDD]

Hi Mike,
Sorry, I think we're at cross purposes.
Yes the clockspring itself takes the power and also data signals to the airbag and any wheel mounted switches.
But also incorporated within the clockspring mechanism is the steering angle sensor.
This sensor is used by the BCM to control indicators, as well as electric power steering etc.
I've about 20 years experience working with complex hi-speed and low speed canbus systems and it's getting so bad to diagnose complex problems now.
I was looking at a fault on a modern Audi for someone, and we counted up the number of computers on the canbus, and we gave up when we hit 60.

Having re-read the OP's original post, I realise that I misread the date as 2018, not 2008 for his van, so it would be more than likely a more mechanical system.

Cheers
Neil

 

[bugsymike]

Hi Mike,
Sorry, I think we're at cross purposes.
Yes the clockspring itself takes the power and also data signals to the airbag and any wheel mounted switches.
But also incorporated within the clockspring mechanism is the steering angle sensor.
This sensor is used by the BCM to control indicators, as well as electric power steering etc.
I've about 20 years experience working with complex hi-speed and low speed canbus systems and it's getting so bad to diagnose complex problems now.
I was looking at a fault on a modern Audi for someone, and we counted up the number of computers on the canbus, and we gave up when we hit 60.

Having re-read the OP's original post, I realise that I misread the date as 2018, not 2008 for his van, so it would be more than likely a more mechanical system.

Cheers
Neil

Hats off to you working on the later Can Bus systems. I had read about multiple computers on the later stuff, but it does seem a bit extreme.
I didn't realise the clock spring side could actually feed back to the BCM regarding indicator positions as well as steering angle etc.
Show you what an "old git" I am, many of my early cars had semaphore indicators, mind you most cost me under £20 to buy the vehicles.

 

[NeilDD]

Mike,
I also ride 1920's motorbikes and have to use hand signals, so I know what you mean.
Other road users think you're drying nail varnish or something when you stick your hand out to turn

 

[Communicator]

Mike,
I also ride 1920's motorbikes and have to use hand signals, so I know what you mean.
Other road users think you're drying nail varnish or something when you stick your hand out to turn

I wonder whether the "I intend to turn left." hand signal given by a car driver, would be recognised by other road users.

 

[bugsymike]

I wonder whether the "I intend to turn left." hand signal given by a car driver, would be recognised by other road users.

Sadly there are only one or two hand signals most use these days.