Panda Wheelbase question

[GnomeSouth]

I've a 2011 Panda Diesel. Due to tyre wear on one of the rear tyres I decided to measure the distance from front wheel rims to the rear wheel rims. The measurement for nearside is 10mm longer than the offside !!!. Can this be adjusted ?

 

[Sicilian]

Were you parked on a flat level surface when you took the measurements?

 

[jrkitching]

Due to tyre wear on one of the rear tyres

This is extremely common. The rear beam is manufactured to wide tolerances (the officially permitted variation in rear track is +- 3mm), and it's pot luck whether you get a good one. Also, if the car has ever suffered any kind of damage, this can also put the beam out of alignment. Sliding the rear end into a kerb is a great way to bend it.

Apart from the front toe setting, there's no provision made for any kind of adjustment to any aspect of the wheel alignment, so if it's one of the less good ones, you have to improvise. You may be able to reposition the rear beam on the monocoque; there's a bit of slack in the bolt holes and there's nothing that keys or pegs the beam to the bodyshell. Some have also tried shimming the hub supporting brackets.

My Panda is the worst FWD car I've ever owned for irregular rear tyre wear, by a considerable margin. I do well to see 35k out of the rear tyres (generally all four wear out as a set); on a previous R5 I've owned, the rears were still (just) legal at 100k.

 

[AndyRKett]

Would the strut tops on the front suspension wiggling around (as they are supposed to do, allow for a certain amount of difference in the movement fore and aft of the front wheels.

That’s also not taking into account any knocks or bangs the car has had over the years

 

[koalar]

10mm wheel base is nothing to worry about.

Are the front suspension arms new ?

Just done mine yesterday. You could move the hub back and forwards a few mm and it wasn't that badly worn

can you do me a favour. Measure the rear wheel arch to centre of the wheel. Is it the same either side mine isnt. When I look a photos of the rear quite a few seem to lean to the near side. Top mount of the shocks have gone. I might swap the springs over.


Looking under my car the spring pans look symmetrical. My last two cars were asymmetrically. The beam has a curve. I don't remember if my other cars were like this but suspect someone may have jacked under the centre

 

[portland_bill]

All above are valid points.

The left rear wheel tends to toe in more than the right. I think the original Fiat jig was poorly aligned, and aftermarket ones faithfully copy this.
The usual toe in would not cause the wheelbase to alter much, as the wheel is effectively Worn bushes in the front arms can allow quite alarming movement of the wheels, so this is a good place to start.
You need to find a datum point on the car, and measure forward to the front wheels, and back to the rear wheels. This way you will know which wheel(s) are different, rather than just moving one.
There are two threads, one current, about Panda rear alignment. A quick search should throw them up. Shimming the rear hubs is possible, and others have got good results, but ideally this means hub removal, which is a lot of work, with potentially seized and rusty hub mounting studs.

 

[DaveMcT]

I used slotted shims with the full side tuned inward so clamping loads took sat on the widest area of shim. It's trial and error but 0.7mm of shim will move the tyre tread about 2 mm.

 

[rmjbn1]

Hi @GnomeSouth, and welcome

@Ians Panda & I both have historic rear tyre wear and recently replaced both front suspension arms due to MOT failure (more on this recent thread). See also this older thread.

Is there a clear connection? Not sure, it's a bit early to tell, we're both monitoring our tyre wear to see if it's improved.

There's enough to suggest worn components on the front will result in play that makes it almost impossible to get your tracking accurately set up. This could show up in rear tyre wear.

If front suspension arms are old, or you suspect wear in front bushes, ball joints or top mounts, I think this might be a good place to start before trying anything else.

Your problem could also be at the rear. As detailed above, there are suspicions that the rear axle might not be very accurately manufactured or installed. There is no provision for adjustment (apart from loosening the mounting bolts).

I did shim my rear hubs (more here) to get rid of excessive tyre wear.

I could clearly see from the back of the car my left rear had much more toe-in than the right. My left tyre showed the distinctive 'feathering' on the outer shoulder consistent with too much toe-in.

What is the pattern of your tyre wear? I agree it would be good to take more measurements before adjusting anything.

 

[koalar]

looking from the back

the left tyre looks old and cracked ? But the wear looks normal. The outer edge will slightly wear more with the built in positive toe and lean when pushing hard.

right is more concerning but hard to see in the photos.


I have been looking at the back of pandas. Rarely they symmetrical. Both in ride height and side to side. I don't thing this is anything to worry about.


measure the height from floor to spring pan and the length of the springs with little petrol in the car.


I am going to check mine when the weather gets better. I suspect the springs are starting to sag on older cars.