Technical What's the likely cause of this fuelling (?) problem

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Technical What's the likely cause of this fuelling (?) problem

As has been mentioned, you have tried most things and you mentioned originally car was running perfect with that carb until you replaced the fuel hose and Zelmot Distributor.
If you are happy with the flow of fuel to the carburettor, it may be worth swapping out one of those at a time to test, carb and distributor if possible.
 
As has been mentioned, you have tried most things and you mentioned originally car was running perfect with that carb until you replaced the fuel hose and Zelmot Distributor.
If you are happy with the flow of fuel to the carburettor, it may be worth swapping out one of those at a time to test, carb and distributor if possible.
Not perfect by any means. Cleaning the carb and replacing the distributor were attempts to track down a rough running problem. It has been running better though.
 
I'm wondering if the spark is being extinguished off idle somehow. An inspection of the plugs shows the one from the front cylinder has been fouled. The gaps were 0.82 and 0.88mm.

I reset the gaps to 0.6mm and tried running the car. It starts and idles well but will stall rather than pull the car out of the garage.

20230910_162832.jpg


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For fun, here is a 5 second video showing what happens if you snap open the throttle. Teaser: nothing.



What is causing this behaviour?
 
Wow! quite a difference in spark plugs, so pushing towards HT side ?
By the way and unlikely to be related, many years ago on a Ford Motocraft course they made a big thing about not having all your HT leads touching or running close together. So I make a point of using the seperator plastic clips if possible.

However just found on TVR website "You dont want them "tidy". They are routed in a very specific way to prevent cross firing between the plugs. This will occur if two leads are close together, and one acts as a transmitter, and one as a receiver, and there is enough power transmitted to cause a weak spark on the second lead. This could ignite the mixture at the wrong time if it hits a cylinder that has fuel in it. The plastic clips just keep the gaps wide enough to prevent this happening, but there is a specific order on the top of the distributor cap."
I don't know if this could be made worse with higher voltage after market ignition systems?
 
@bugsymike, there's nothing for @smart51 to worry about with cross firing on a 500 engine. It's a 360° parallel twin and he's running a wasted spark set-up, so he's firing both plugs at the same time anyway!

The fouling to the front cylinder isn't especially good news, but hopefully not the end of the world. Would be interesting to see how quickly it fouls up again. Does you car burn and oil / smoke at all? Equally lots of this engines run around with things like worn valve guides for years without it really causing a problem.

The rear plug don't look like its been running especially lean, but if theres been lots of runs round the block to test drive then it's going to mask that.

0.8mm+ plug gaps is definitely pushing it for a points system, a reduction to 0.6mm I would have thought might help, but clearly from the video something is very wrong!

To me that looks like either like the main fuel circuit I the carb isn't working or a weak spark. As said before, you've been through the whole fuel system recently, so maybe back to investigating ignition.

If I remember correctly you've got new points and the timing is set and the gap adjusted etc. Did you change coil when swapping to the new distributer? Should your coil have a ballast resistor? Did you try a new condenser when you were previously investing the ignition?
 
@bugsymike, there's nothing for @smart51 to worry about with cross firing on a 500 engine. It's a 360° parallel twin and he's running a wasted spark set-up, so he's firing both plugs at the same time anyway!

The fouling to the front cylinder isn't especially good news, but hopefully not the end of the world. Would be interesting to see how quickly it fouls up again. Does you car burn and oil / smoke at all? Equally lots of this engines run around with things like worn valve guides for years without it really causing a problem.

The rear plug don't look like its been running especially lean, but if theres been lots of runs round the block to test drive then it's going to mask that.

0.8mm+ plug gaps is definitely pushing it for a points system, a reduction to 0.6mm I would have thought might help, but clearly from the video something is very wrong!

To me that looks like either like the main fuel circuit I the carb isn't working or a weak spark. As said before, you've been through the whole fuel system recently, so maybe back to investigating ignition.

If I remember correctly you've got new points and the timing is set and the gap adjusted etc. Did you change coil when swapping to the new distributer? Should your coil have a ballast resistor? Did you try a new condenser when you were previously investing the ignition?
The new distributor came with a new condenser. I did swap the condensers over to see if it changed anything (which it didn't).

The tailpipe shows no sign of smoke.

The dealer swapped the coil just before I bought it earlier in the year. I don't know if it is supposed to have a ballast resistor or not. I'm going to measure the resistance of the coil tomorrow to see if that suggests something.

The spark plugs are BP6HS and should be BPR7HS. I don't know what effect not having the resistor has or being slightly hotter, but I have a new pair arriving in the post tomorrow. Either it will have an effect or not.

For fun, I cleaned the plugs and refitted, then did the brief full throttle thing shown in the video a few times, then pulled the spark plug again. Take a look.

20230910_170705.jpg


Is says to me that opening the throttle is either drowning the engine in fuel or the spark is being snuffed out. Fuel burns in 3 stages. First, the hydrogen burns off. Then the carbon chain burns to carbon monoxide. Lastly, the carbon monoxide burns to carbon dioxide, which is the bit that produces the power. Running an engine too rich reduces power because all the oxygen is used up in the carbon monoxide phase, so the power-producing carbon dioxide burn is reduced. A complete coating in carbon like this says that the carbon chain isn't being burned.
 
If that's actual wet fuel on the strap then my money is on a spark issue. You've got a standard carb with fairly standard jets in it, it's not going to be rich enough to cause it to wet the plugs.

If I remember correctly, one of the commonly used 126 wasted spark coils does require a ballast resistor. I'm sure there was a thread where it was covered recently, but I can't seem to put my finger on it.
 
@bugsymike, there's nothing for @smart51 to worry about with cross firing on a 500 engine. It's a 360° parallel twin and he's running a wasted spark set-up, so he's firing both plugs at the same time anyway!
Yes, I understand about the wasted spark system etc. in fact I was working on Citroen 2CVs, who used it first in 1948, many years prior to Fiat adopting it. But in relation to the "cross firing affect" a piece I didn't down load mentioned it could seriously downgrade the spark to the other cylinder.
So this was where it can cause a problem in some cases.
Around 1978 we had a customer with a Volvo 265 V6 that ran poorly and I traced it to the HT leads which were all bunched together, I found if I put my hands on them the sparks were jumping to me through the HT lead insulation breaking down although no visible fault, I fitted a genuine set from Volvo £26 (a fair bit of money to me at the time , although not to the night club owner driving the car;)) which cured the problem.
Re the NGK resister spark plugs, non resister plugs need less voltage to fire them, hence a heavily "resisted" system is more likely to breakdown in damp conditions or high loads etc.
In the past we found cars with a basic copper wire lead set up and non resister plugs ran more reliable in adverse conditions than cars with resister plugs, carbon leads and resistors in the rotor arm etc. To the point when hooked up to a Crypton diagnostic machine it showed K volts could be double when using resistors, thereby electricity like water taking the easy route.:)
 
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Sounds heat related as in getting hot and something breaking down. I had a dodgy spark plug which started to short / break down when it got really hot.

This is painful for you!
 
Yes, I understand about the wasted spark system etc. in fact I was working on Citroen 2CVs, who used it first in 1948, many years prior to Fiat adopting it. But in relation to the "cross firing affect" a piece I didn't down load mentioned it could seriously downgrade the spark to the other cylinder.
So this was where it can cause a problem in some cases.
Around 1978 we had a customer with a Volvo 265 V6 that ran poorly and I traced it to the HT leads which were all bunched together, I found if I put my hands on them the sparks were jumping to me through the HT lead insulation breaking down although no visible fault, I fitted a genuine set from Volvo £26 (a fair bit of money to me at the time , although not to the night club owner driving the car;)) which cured the problem.
Re the NGK resister spark plugs, non resister plugs need less voltage to fire them, hence a heavily "resisted" system is more likely to breakdown in damp conditions or high loads etc.
In the past we found cars with a basic copper wire lead set up and non resister plugs ran more reliable in adverse conditions than cars with resister plugs, carbon leads and resistors in the rotor arm etc. To the point when hooked up to a Crypton diagnostic machine it showed K volts could be double when using resistors, thereby electricity like water taking the easy route.:)

There have been several threads in the past where people have pointed out the importance of having adequate HT leads with this car. In original spec. the leads are tightly squeezed together inside a small grommet lodge in abracket on the thermostat housing. As far as I know I've never had a problem with misfiring caused by this factor, but I change the HT leads regularly, probably being on my fourth set in 40.000 miles.

There are some quite perky ignition-coils available nowadays that might give a bit more of a kick than the originals.
 
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The new distributor came with a new condenser. I did swap the condensers over to see if it changed anything (which it didn't).

The tailpipe shows no sign of smoke.

The dealer swapped the coil just before I bought it earlier in the year. I don't know if it is supposed to have a ballast resistor or not. I'm going to measure the resistance of the coil tomorrow to see if that suggests something.

The spark plugs are BP6HS and should be BPR7HS. I don't know what effect not having the resistor has or being slightly hotter, but I have a new pair arriving in the post tomorrow. Either it will have an effect or not.

For fun, I cleaned the plugs and refitted, then did the brief full throttle thing shown in the video a few times, then pulled the spark plug again. Take a look.

View attachment 429616

Is says to me that opening the throttle is either drowning the engine in fuel or the spark is being snuffed out. Fuel burns in 3 stages. First, the hydrogen burns off. Then the carbon chain burns to carbon monoxide. Lastly, the carbon monoxide burns to carbon dioxide, which is the bit that produces the power. Running an engine too rich reduces power because all the oxygen is used up in the carbon monoxide phase, so the power-producing carbon dioxide burn is reduced. A complete coating in carbon like this says that the carbon chain isn't being burned.

I suspect that most (if not all) of the wasted-spark ignition coils of non-cylindrical design will require a ballast-resistor in the permanent supply to the coil. But won't it then require two supplies from the ignition-switch?
By the time that Fiat was fitting this system to the Fiat 126 the ignition wiring would have been modified. I owned an horrendous Fiat 126BIS for a while; that had a big resistor just inside the spare wheel-well. I'm sure that I've also also read of there possibly having been a supply to the coil made through resistive cable that would have reduced the permanannt supply to around 9 volts on some cars.
 
I burnt out two brand new 126 dry pack coils before I found out the need for a ballast resistor then I purchased another coil relatively recently that had this leaflet in the box.
IMG_2964.jpeg
I have never found any evidence of a resistive cable on any 500 or 126 but I have come across the front mounted resistor on 126s. This is what Haynes says :
IMG_4602.jpegIMG_4603.jpeg
Seems to make sense and indicate that the coil will run on a reduced voltage.
These are some coil options.
IMG_4601.jpeg
 
I'm going to order a new coil and HT leads plus a ballast resistor. Is there one you'd recommend to get, or avoid, or are they all similar?
 
In the old days Vauxhall Viva etc. had a Ballast resister bolted to the 9 volt? coil terminal and two 12 volt supply live feeds one when cranking direct to the coil and another for normal running via the resistor terminal. Several other manufacturers played with these solutions to overcome voltage drop.
 
New spark plugs and new HT leads had no effect on the problem. A new coil made it very slightly better. It will barely run above idle where before it wouldn't run at all above idle. It idles really well though.

What I didn't realise with a wasted spark is that the HT flows down one lead, sparks across one plug, through the cylinder head, sparks across the other plug, then back to the coil along the other HT lead.
 
What I didn't realise with a wasted spark is that the HT flows down one lead, sparks across one plug, through the cylinder head, sparks across the other plug, then back to the coil along the other HT lead.
Never heard of that, do you have any literature explaining it so I can see the logic.:)
 
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