Technical Different ignition, same problem.

[JollyRedNotSoGiant]

Hi All,

I have a 1966 500F, and I've been through several ignition setups and they keep blowing up.
Car came with the stock setup, which worked fine until it rattled itself to pieces and we couldn't keep it running. Switched to a 123 distributor, which lasted all of about 50miles before cutting out stone dead, no spark at all, tried bypassing all the car electronics and going straight from battery to coil, no dice. Rebuilt the original distributor with new points, coil, cap, and condenser, which worked fine until again it sputtered out, actually looked like there were some gouges in the cap due to loose fitting retaining springs. Gave up on that as a new cap still did not correct the issue. Fitted on of these: https://www.fdricambi.com/en/os1015-electronic-ignition-kit/ along with the recommended coil and voltage regulator and she fired right up. Lasted again about 50 miles. In both cases that the engine cutout with electronic ignition fitted I was coasting downhill in gear.

I have read in another thread that it may be due to heat coming off the engine/exhaust, however I don't see a good work around. Hoping someone could shed some light as to why these things keep blowing up on me, at this point I have spent more time rebuilding ignition circuits than driving the car...

Thanks!

 

[ZaphodB]

I have read in another thread that it may be due to heat coming off the engine/exhaust, however I don't see a good work around.

CLASSIC FIAT 500 D F L EXHAUST HEAT SHIELD METAL Powder coated in Blac

CLASSIC FIAT 500 D F L EXHAUST SHIELD IN METAL - BRAND NEW!! Fits on the shell of the Classic Fiat 500 D F L (Fiat 500R available in other listing) - right side in the engine bay. It is fitted in order to protect the distributor from the heat exhaled from the exhaust. Powder coated in the...

autobellaparts.com

Fits on the shell of the Classic Fiat 500 D F L (Fiat 500R available in other listing) - right side in the engine bay. It is fitted in order to protect the distributor from the heat exhaled from the exhaust.

Or from https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265630754414

 

[JollyRedNotSoGiant]

CLASSIC FIAT 500 D F L EXHAUST HEAT SHIELD METAL Powder coated in Blac

CLASSIC FIAT 500 D F L EXHAUST SHIELD IN METAL - BRAND NEW!! Fits on the shell of the Classic Fiat 500 D F L (Fiat 500R available in other listing) - right side in the engine bay. It is fitted in order to protect the distributor from the heat exhaled from the exhaust. Powder coated in the...

autobellaparts.com

Or from https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265630754414

Hi, yes I have this piece in there.

 

[the hobbler]

Hi, yes I have this piece in there.

Yes, one of the problems with "electronic" ignition units IS heat---but it is the heat that is coming out of the Thermostat-housing and then blowing over the distributor. Practically ALL of the "electronic" units, irrespective of cost, have a "wilt"(spelt D.I.E.) point of 100C. In fact there used to be label on the side of the '123' distributors pointing this fact out. After a hard run on a hot day, that 'engine-cooling' air can easily exceed 100C. I suffered such a failure, and after giving the problem a lot of thought (whilst drinking many cups of tea), I came up with a relatively simple (though slightly tedious) answer---a 'heat-shield' built into the Thermostat-housing directly in line with the distributor. I don't know if this was the actual answer to the problem, or that I have been extremely lucky, but (touch-wood) I haven't had a problem with my 'electronic' ignition (a simple "Hall effect" unit) for quite sometime. I wrote an article about this for a Fiat 500 club's magazine, and if you would like a copy of that article you are very welcome to it. If you would like to e-mail me direct ( [email protected]) with your address, I will put a copy into the post for you.
I have no obvious answer as to why your distributor should fall apart, but the answer to negating the heat problem to your distributor if you wish to retain "points" ignition, is also simple. Modern "pattern" condensers are, to put none too fine a point on it, crap! (they also do not like heat). The answer to THAT problem is to fit a"Competition" condenser, as supplied by"SWIFTUNE".These condensers do NOT need to be attached to the distributor (and therefore also in the direct line of the very hot "engine-cooling" air), as due to their design (long leads for both supply AND earth) they can be mounted up by the coil, away from the engine heat.

 

[JollyRedNotSoGiant]

Yes, one of the problems with "electronic" ignition units IS heat---but it is the heat that is coming out of the Thermostat-housing and then blowing over the distributor. Practically ALL of the "electronic" units, irrespective of cost, have a "wilt"(spelt D.I.E.) point of 100C. In fact there used to be label on the side of the '123' distributors pointing this fact out. After a hard run on a hot day, that 'engine-cooling' air can easily exceed 100C. I suffered such a failure, and after giving the problem a lot of thought (whilst drinking many cups of tea), I came up with a relatively simple (though slightly tedious) answer---a 'heat-shield' built into the Thermostat-housing directly in line with the distributor. I don't know if this was the actual answer to the problem, or that I have been extremely lucky, but (touch-wood) I haven't had a problem with my 'electronic' ignition (a simple "Hall effect" unit) for quite sometime. I wrote an article about this for a Fiat 500 club's magazine, and if you would like a copy of that article you are very welcome to it. If you would like to e-mail me direct ( [email protected]) with your address, I will put a copy into the post for you.
I have no obvious answer as to why your distributor should fall apart, but the answer to negating the heat problem to your distributor if you wish to retain "points" ignition, is also simple. Modern "pattern" condensers are, to put none too fine a point on it, crap! (they also do not like heat). The answer to THAT problem is to fit a"Competition" condenser, as supplied by"SWIFTUNE".These condensers do NOT need to be attached to the distributor (and therefore also in the direct line of the very hot "engine-cooling" air), as due to their design (long leads for both supply AND earth) they can be mounted up by the coil, away from the engine heat.

That makes a lot of sense, I'd love to read more about it. Short of building some kind of flex shaft to relocate the dizzy entirely, a heat shield makes a lot of sense. I work at a boat dealership and one of my techs suggested fitting a blower to cool the unit... I'll send you my address. Thank you!

 

[JollyRedNotSoGiant]

So I gave up on this car for a while, just didn't have a whole lot of time. Finally got back to it over the weekend and I'm curious how other cars are wired.

I put the original points setup back in and it wasn't happy until I changed the condenser. (old one had barely any miles on it.) So my symptoms are the points setup works great, but my condenser soft fails, and solid state modules die completely without warning. I think there's something more than heat going on, maybe I'm getting too much voltage to the unit? Is there supposed to be a resistor in the circuit?

Mine had the small wire coming off the coil to the distributor running in the sleeve along with all the HT leads, which as far as I can tell is the factory setup:

To me this could pickup an inductive current and feed that straight into the condenser or ignition module that I'm running. From what I understand it's better to keep separation of high and low voltage wiring and try to cross at 90 degrees to avoid picking anything up.

Wonder if anyone has any thoughts on this, in the meantime I'm gonna keep my fingers crossed I can put more than 50 miles on it this time.

 

[jackwhoo]

I suggest removing condenser from distributor .
New condenser should be connected between coil wire going to points and ground so lots of options especially with "competition " condenser with leads.

 

[the hobbler]

I suggest removing condenser from distributor .
New condenser should be connected between coil wire going to points and ground so lots of options especially with "competition " condenser with leads.

JollyRedNotSoG---did you ever send me your postal address in order that I could send you a copy of my "heat-shield (inside the thermostat housing) installation"----if you did, I cannot find a record of it, so my apologies. If you want to try again--- [email protected] and I will pop a copy of my article (including pictures) into the post. there ios no charge for this assistance, just glad to be able to help.

 

[jackwhoo]

Post6 Mention of ignition module? What is this ?
Does it use the points? Does it have a built in condenser?
If it does have built in condenser you must disconnect the one in distributor or any other one fitted. 2Condensers in parallel reduces total capacity to half of a single condenser.

 

[JollyRedNotSoGiant]

I suggest removing condenser from distributor .
New condenser should be connected between coil wire going to points and ground so lots of options especially with "competition " condenser with leads.

Do you mean relocate it so that it's not hanging off the side of the dizzy? Would this be to lower the temperatures it's in?

 

[JollyRedNotSoGiant]

Post6 Mention of ignition module? What is this ?
Does it use the points? Does it have a built in condenser?
If it does have built in condenser you must disconnect the one in distributor or any other one fitted. 2Condensers in parallel reduces total capacity to half of a single condenser.

I ran this one https://123ignition.com/product/fiat-2-r/, no condenser, and the two wires going to either side of the coil running along the spark plug wires. Ran great until it died with no warning

Then I tried this one, same sypmtoms

https://www.fdricambi.com/en/os1015-electronic-ignition-kit/

 

[bugsymike]

As has been mentioned today's replacement ignition parts leave a lot to be desired in many cases. When I ran a Fiat 500 roughly mid 70s it was just coil, condensor and points standard ignition set up and could stand flat out foot on the floor on Motorway for 250 miles car fully laden 55mph and 55mpg and the same on the way back along with everyday to and from work totally reliable with standard ignition.
Re loose distributor cap, is the cap a good quality fit and sat in its locating groove and if retaining clips are loose can you bend them to make them grip the cap tighter?
Presumably Italy in a hot Summer is no different from where you are and they managed fine selling those cars in their thousands for cheap everyday use.
If you feel the need for electronic set up then all you can do is as suggested, re heat deflection.
Personally unless high performance racing engine then I prefer points and condensor standard set up , as can be fixed at the side of the road for peanuts unlike electronic system failure which involves a tow truck .

 

[romniox789]

Could be way off but if you’re looking for things to rule out, I had recent issues that showed up as coil and distributor symptoms but root cause was further back in voltage regulator causing battery to drain (but still have enough to start and drive for a while). Cheap fix - new modern regulator

Conks out when it’s hot and won’t restart until it cools… help! | FIAT 500 (Classic)

Hi everyone, I need some help to devise a logical troubleshooting procedure to identify what is causing my Fiat 500 f to die when it gets hot, and not restart until it cools. It happens after about five miles. When the engine drops back to idle it stalls, and then is impossible to start. It...

www.fiatforum.com

 

[jackwhoo]

Do you mean relocate it so that it's not hanging off the side of the dizzy? Would this be to lower the temperatures it's in?

Yes

Get a condenser with two wires on it , move it somewhere cooler, connect one wire to ground the other wire to coil connection that has wire going to distributor. The condenser wires can be connected either way round it doesn't care about + -
Easy

Mechanical points(breakers) are not heat affected.

Have you checked your coil?

Rotor arm ?

It's surprising how rotor arms overlooked because normally very reliable.


The link for recambi states replaces condenser so you should have removed it and states to use coil specified in listing

 

[jackwhoo]

@bugsymike
I too like the standard points set up on "classic" vehicles that were fitted with them at factory

 

[bugsymike]

@bugsymike
I too like the standard points set up on "classic" vehicles that were fitted with them at factory

So true, people seem to forget these were everyday transport, they wouldn't have sold nearly 4 million in standard form if they were unreliable.
As an apprentice every petrol car had point's and condensor setups, I must have fitted thousands.

 

[jackwhoo]

So true, people seem to forget these were everyday transport, they wouldn't have sold nearly 4 million in standard form if they were unreliable.
As an apprentice every petrol car had point's and condensor setups, I must have fitted thousands.

First used in production by cadalac 1912 . Manufactured by delco

 

[JollyRedNotSoGiant]

I agree, it seems pretty easy to put these mechanical things back together, bit of a learning curve for me, but I'm getting practice!

Yes when I ran the ricambi item there, I removed the condenser. The heat I think is a factor, there's obviously a reason you see cooling fins on motorcycle ecus, on outboards they often have them mounted to the intake for cooling etc...

Coil is new as is the rotor and cap. (I forgot that I had mentioned a loose cap. new one is good and tight. coil has been checked, within spec, and we've fitted a solid state voltage regulator, though I haven't checked what the generator is actually putting out, at some point I'm going to rig up a good voltmeter and do some testing. Maybe even an oscilloscope to see if there are any weird spikes.

So far been driving for a few days with this setup and no issues yet. Last time I had the points setup the idle started to go first, I found it was tricky to keep it running as you come to a stop, this was within the first week. This time it seems rock solid so far. I don't have to blip the throttle as I come to a stop.

Thanks for the tip on a two wire condenser, looks like this could work: https://fortnine.ca/en/k-s-ignition-condenser-09-0003
As I understand it it's just a capacitor, how critical is the spec on it?

 

[romniox789]

Yes when I ran the ricambi item there, I removed the condenser. The heat I think is a factor, there's obviously a reason you see cooling fins on motorcycle ecus, on outboards they often have them mounted to the intake for cooling etc...

Coil is new as is the rotor and cap. (I forgot that I had mentioned a loose cap. new one is good and tight. coil has been checked, within spec, and we've fitted a solid state voltage regulator, though I haven't checked what the generator is actually putting out, at some point I'm going to rig up a good voltmeter and do some testing. Maybe even an oscilloscope to see if there are any weird spikes.

So far been driving for a few days with this setup and no issues yet. Last time I had the points setup the idle started to go first, I found it was tricky to keep it running as you come to a stop, this was within the first week. This time it seems rock solid so far. I don't have to blip the throttle as I come to a stop.

Thanks

When the voltage regulator was failing on my car, I had similar idling issues — but only once the engine was fully warmed up. At first, I assumed heat was the problem, but in reality it was simply the distance driven; the battery needed that amount of time to discharge enough for the issue to appear.


The battery never became so depleted that the problem was obvious. The lights still worked, the engine cranked over fine, but there wasn’t quite enough voltage left to maintain a strong spark. The symptoms sound very similar to yours.


My car came with a “competition condenser” mounted next to the coil and within a few weeks of ownership it failed. So that weekend, when I urgently needed to get the car running, I followed the “it’s just a capacitor” logic and borrowed a condenser from an old Mini. Unfortunately, it didn’t work.

My advice would be to buy a couple of the correct condensers and always keep a spare in the car alongside the spanner’s and screwdriver to change it in an emergency. My thinking is that millions of cars left the factory with the condenser mounted on the distributor, so unless you’re building a dedicated race car, it’s hard to see why the original location would be a problem.

 

[bugsymike]

When the voltage regulator was failing on my car, I had similar idling issues — but only once the engine was fully warmed up. At first, I assumed heat was the problem, but in reality it was simply the distance driven; the battery needed that amount of time to discharge enough for the issue to appear.


The battery never became so depleted that the problem was obvious. The lights still worked, the engine cranked over fine, but there wasn’t quite enough voltage left to maintain a strong spark. The symptoms sound very similar to yours.


My car came with a “competition condenser” mounted next to the coil and within a few weeks of ownership it failed. So that weekend, when I urgently needed to get the car running, I followed the “it’s just a capacitor” logic and borrowed a condenser from an old Mini. Unfortunately, it didn’t work.

My advice would be to buy a couple of the correct condensers and always keep a spare in the car alongside the spanner’s and screwdriver to change it in an emergency. My thinking is that millions of cars left the factory with the condenser mounted on the distributor, so unless you’re building a dedicated race car, it’s hard to see why the original location would be a problem.

A couple of "points" when fitting new points I always put a little high melting point grease on the cam lobes and a small bit on the fibre heel of the moving contact of the points where it touches the cam. Obviously making sure none on the actual contacts. If done like that correctly then I would expect any car I had serviced back then to have no issues between 6000 mile plus service intervals where I always fitted new points and checked the old ones as I described.
The other thing is I am surprised the old Mini condensor didn't work unless it was already duff. Roughly 500mfd?
If when out to a breakdown and found the points were the problem I would always inspect the contact area before cleaning them (if I didn't have a spare set) if the contacts were "blue and pitted" this indicates the condensor is faulty as it is there to prevent arcing at the points by providing a rapid fall in current/volts as the open and shut. If the contacts were a light grey colour then usually they would only need re gaping if they had simply closed up, the reason for closing up is failure to do what I said earlier, of grease on the cam lobe and heel of the points.
If the points condition indicated a faulty condensor but I didn't have one with me, the get you home trick I used was, back in those days coils often had a capacitator/condensor fitted to the switch/12 volt supply side of the coil as a radio interference device (often dynamos caused a raising and falling crackle on the car radio or a ticking noise from the HT ignition side) I would move that condensor/capacitator to the CB/points side of the coil and it would do the job of the condensor inside the distributor, once I removed the original as sometimes they short to earth on failing.
Another thing that will shorten the life of contact points/condensors and ignition coils , is leaving the ignition on whilst doing other jobs on the car like testing lights or even listening to the radio when "courting" was a favourite cause of a breakdown, always embarrassing especially if the girls father has to come out to start their car.
Possibly the points overheating due to above wouldn't be experienced on small outboards where fitted with contact points is once engine stops then no power from the mag to the points to overheat them?
Just found this re MFDs on radio suppressors " Dynamo suppressor (2.2uf" I am not an electrician, but I can confirm they did work as a "get you home" repair job until correct parts were fitted.