Technical Setting (non-electronic ignition) Timing with Strobe light

[romniox789]

I recently bought a 499cc 110F and have had to replace the carb (it has a new, stock Weber 26) and a refurbed distributor with new points and condensor (properly gapped) so I am setting the car up again. I think I've got the carb about right - 1.5 turns on the mixture seems to run nicely, idilng according to my electronic tacho at about 800 give or take 50rpm. Much lower on the idle or the mixture and it starts to cough.

But with timing I'm really quite confused. I got the car running by setting static 10 degrees. Now I have a strobe light, and the timing plate and I don't know how I should be aduusting.

What timing mark should the strobe show at my 800rpm idle - 10 degrees, 0 degrees, something else?
What should the idle speed even be? There's nothing in my haynes and nothing in the workshop manual I can see (maybe I'm looking in the wrong place!)
How does the 28 degree mark factor into anything - when should the strobe light align to that?
I presume the 28 degree mark is the fabled 18 degrees that I keep reading about on top of the 10 baseline?

Many thanks for any help to solve my confusion...!

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

1988 ? Fuel called formula shell

That definitely rings a bell Jack. It was a big scandal at the time I remember

So if the Police were doing high mileage at motorway speeds they would soon have problems, hence the court case with iron head Cavaliars.
The old seat cutting tools were rubbish on later hardened valve seats, fortunately at yet another garage closing down auction I bought a set of Sykes Pickavant valve seat cutters with the nice milling teeth and the same for the valves themselves, to say it made a difference would be an understatement, after cutting the seats, a short grind and you had a perfect seal. I have used them on many engines, from lawn mower to 2.8 Sofim diesels.

Ah yes, Sykes Pickavant, a legendary name synonymous with top drawer quality - Please don't tell be it's just a "brand" now?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

That definitely rings a bell Jack. It was a big scandal at the time I remember

Ah yes, Sykes Pickavant, a legendary name synonymous with top drawer quality - Please don't tell be it's just a "brand" now?

Thank goodness, just googled it and they are alive and well!

 

[the hobbler]

So if the Police were doing high mileage at motorway speeds they would soon have problems, hence the court case with iron head Cavaliars.
The old seat cutting tools were rubbish on later hardened valve seats, fortunately at yet another garage closing down auction I bought a set of Sykes Pickavant valve seat cutters with the nice milling teeth and the same for the valves themselves, to say it made a difference would be an understatement, after cutting the seats, a short grind and you had a perfect seal. I have used them on many engines, from lawn mower to 2.8 Sofim diesels.

According to their own company "web-site" Esso state that in the bulk of England their "Super 99+" fuel is ethanol-free; I live JUST on the Wales/England border, with an Esso garage 300yds inside Wales and an Esso garage garage 3 miles down the road in Chester (strangely, the Chester garage is about 7p a litre cheaper!), so I am always able to purchase the Esso fuel. I am not the only 'classic' owner who has come to the conclusion that his car runs better with the Esso fuel. Yes, it IS more expensive, but a lot cheaper than rebuilding the fuel system! Fuel-hoses---their is proper "Ethanol-resistant" black fuel-hose on the market--any GOOD "car accessory" shop will be able to supply this hose---and the fact that it IS "ethanol resistant" is printed on the outside of the hose.
Setting up the timing "statically" on the 500/126 engines is very simple as the distributor adjustment is very easy to get at, and the timing marks are also very easy to see. The only tools that one needs are a "12 volt test lamp" (literally, a 12v bulb holder with 2 leads, each with a small crocodile clip) and a spanner---10mm for the 500 and 13mm for the 126.

 

[bugsymike]

According to their own company "web-site" Esso state that in the bulk of England their "Super 99+" fuel is ethanol-free; I live JUST on the Wales/England border, with an Esso garage 300yds inside Wales and an Esso garage garage 3 miles down the road in Chester (strangely, the Chester garage is about 7p a litre cheaper!), so I am always able to purchase the Esso fuel. I am not the only 'classic' owner who has come to the conclusion that his car runs better with the Esso fuel. Yes, it IS more expensive, but a lot cheaper than rebuilding the fuel system! Fuel-hoses---their is proper "Ethanol-resistant" black fuel-hose on the market--any GOOD "car accessory" shop will be able to supply this hose---and the fact that it IS "ethanol resistant" is printed on the outside of the hose.
Setting up the timing "statically" on the 500/126 engines is very simple as the distributor adjustment is very easy to get at, and the timing marks are also very easy to see. The only tools that one needs are a "12 volt test lamp" (literally, a 12v bulb holder with 2 leads, each with a small crocodile clip) and a spanner---10mm for the 500 and 13mm for the 126.

I always used to prefer Esso fuel, I worked for an Esso garage as an apprentice, but as well as that when we used to race Karts competitively we always reckoned the Esso fuel had more punch, though that was in the days of " full fat Fuel " with lots of Tetra Ethel lead.
These days I always go for the E5 as that is best option locally.
I always had a 12 volt test lamp to check timing, even later when at the Wartburg Dealership with the three cylinder two strokes and three sets of points and coils etc, so each one gapped and timed individually and double checked down the plug holes as the pressed cranks sometimes moved, in which case we sent them for recon at Alpha Bearings in Dudley, where strangely enough we also bought our racing con rods for the tuned Villiers 9E kart engines.I see they still supply them today and other classic parts.

 

[romniox789]

So you’re suggesting forget the strobe and just set it statically? If so, how does the 12v light fit into it (and presumably a buzzer on a circuit tester would suffice)?

Many thanks

 

[Pete O]

So you’re suggesting forget the strobe and just set it statically? If so, how does the 12v light fit into it (and presumably a buzzer on a circuit tester would suffice)?

Many thanks

Some time ago I did a little write-up of how to set ignition timing statically. I'll attach it here, I hope it will be helpful.

 

[romniox789]

Outstanding - thank you!

In your materials you reference 8 degrees rather than 10 which I see written up elsewhere for the 500. Any reason for that?

Many thanks again. An exceptionally clear and well written doc.

 

[Pete O]

It was not vehicle specific, just a generic starting point which, as stated, should get just about any engine started and running.

 

[bugsymike]

So you’re suggesting forget the strobe and just set it statically? If so, how does the 12v light fit into it (and presumably a buzzer on a circuit tester would suffice)?

Many thanks

Static timing is just what it says static, it is a base starting point that show the point when the contact points start to open and the coil then sends a spark to the spark plug, once the engine starts to run then inertia on the distributor bob weights starts to affect the advance curve, so assuming nothing worn it should show a reasonably linear advance pattern, hence the need to use a strobe light to compare max. advance position etc.
Modern ECU controlled ignition systems have built in advance curves that are adjusted according to the information the sensors around the engine pass back to it, including "anti knock/pinking etc."
In the past when engines were less critically tuned it was possible to just set the piston a short distance before TDC on the firing stroke, gap the points and then set the distributor so the points were just starting to open simply by eye and the engine would run, I have done that many times then fine tuning it on the road, using experience. Yes it was basic and can be improved on, but it worked.
I always recall in late 60s at Motor vehicle college the lecturer giving us an engine on a test bed with all valve and ignition timing points erased to see if we understood the principles, so for example on a 4 cylinder engine I would set the inlet and exhaust valves on no.4 cylinder on the "rock" one about to fully close and the other just starting to open on a standard four cylinder engine , this meant the no.1 cylinder would be on it's firing stroke at TDC, so by noting that position and moving the crank pulley back about 1/2 an inch (roughly 5 degrees of advance) and then setting the correctly gaped contact points to just be about to open the engine would then start and run happily. Assuming the student had paid attention to the lecture.
I quite enjoyed little challenges like that and also used the same principles to start a diesel engine with no timing marks and using the "spill port" timing method. Many years later it stood me in good stead when I fitted a Ford York diesel engine in a Series Land Rover. I simply used my children's plastic protractor to mark the pulley after locating TDC then carefully watched when the injector pump no.1 feed reacted to slowly turning the engine by hand, from memory it was 12 degrees and it ran perfectly, more powerful and economical than the original Land Rover Diesels when new as I had access to a Land Rover Salesmen's data from the 60s. I was doing this conversion on a petrol one, so fuel saving was much more.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Static timing is just what it says static, it is a base starting point that show the point when the contact points start to open and the coil then sends a spark to the spark plug, once the engine starts to run then inertia on the distributor bob weights starts to affect the advance curve, so assuming nothing worn it should show a reasonably linear advance pattern, hence the need to use a strobe light to compare max. advance position etc.
Modern ECU controlled ignition systems have built in advance curves that are adjusted according to the information the sensors around the engine pass back to it, including "anti knock/pinking etc."
In the past when engines were less critically tuned it was possible to just set the piston a short distance before TDC on the firing stroke, gap the points and then set the distributor so the points were just starting to open simply by eye and the engine would run, I have done that many times then fine tuning it on the road, using experience. Yes it was basic and can be improved on, but it worked.
I always recall in late 60s at Motor vehicle college the lecturer giving us an engine on a test bed with all valve and ignition timing points erased to see if we understood the principles, so for example on a 4 cylinder engine I would set the inlet and exhaust valves on no.4 cylinder on the "rock" one about to fully close and the other just starting to open on a standard four cylinder engine , this meant the no.1 cylinder would be on it's firing stroke at TDC, so by noting that position and moving the crank pulley back about 1/2 an inch (roughly 5 degrees of advance) and then setting the correctly gaped contact points to just be about to open the engine would then start and run happily. Assuming the student had paid attention to the lecture.
I quite enjoyed little challenges like that and also used the same principles to start a diesel engine with no timing marks and using the "spill port" timing method. Many years later it stood me in good stead when I fitted a Ford York diesel engine in a Series Land Rover. I simply used my children's plastic protractor to mark the pulley after locating TDC then carefully watched when the injector pump no.1 feed reacted to slowly turning the engine by hand, from memory it was 12 degrees and it ran perfectly, more powerful and economical than the original Land Rover Diesels when new as I had access to a Land Rover Salesmen's data from the 60s. I was doing this conversion on a petrol one, so fuel saving was much more.

Oh my Mike, those engine exercises! Sounds like the college I attended and yours worked to a very similar syllabus. Happy memories of carefree days.

 

[bugsymike]

Oh my Mike, those engine exercises! Sounds like the college I attended and yours worked to a very similar syllabus. Happy memories of carefree days.

Thoroughly enjoyed it and easy to learn from a chief lecturer who had come from the Motor trade and knew his subject inside out so he was also able to teach without boring and made the subject fun, a good bloke. You could really relate to him, unlike an assistant lecturer we had sometimes, who thought he knew it all and would stand is ground even when I proved him wrong with things like grease on welding bottles, he swore it was the Acetylene and not the Oxygen, so he could have potentially caused an explosion!