What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

[StevenRB45]

He seems to be singing the praises of it's safety as you'd expect.

Although what I can't help but notice is that it takes a lot of wall to stop 2.7 tonnes at speed

In this case the weight of the vehicle and ride height seems to have allowed it to demolish/ride over the catch fence. Something smaller would have stayed on the road and not dropped off as the wall is still up if damaged the ride height of the defender seems to have allowed to ride over the safety barrier.

So while it's stood up well...it also probably lead to the incident being as serious as it was.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

He seems to be singing the praises of it's safety as you'd expect.

Although what I can't help but notice is that it takes a lot of wall to stop 2.7 tonnes at speed

View attachment 471374

In this case the weight of the vehicle and ride height seems to have allowed it to demolish/ride over the catch fence. Something smaller would have stayed on the road and not dropped off as the wall is still up if damaged the ride height of the defender seems to have allowed to ride over the safety barrier.

So while it's stood up well...it also probably lead to the incident being as serious as it was.

I have to admit I share your view on this, such a large and heavy vehicle no doubt added to the extent of the accident in this particular circumstance. Would a lighter vehicle rolled so easily/so many times. Did the weight increase the impact force with the road below etc, but yeah a smaller car probably would not have punched thought that wall quite so easily.

Still impressive that given his age and the severity of the accident he was able to walk a way needing only a back support for a few weeks.

 

[ZaphodB]

I have to admit I share your view on this, such a large and heavy vehicle no doubt added to the extent of the accident in this particular circumstance. Would a lighter vehicle rolled so easily/so many times. Did the weight increase the impact force with the road below etc, but yeah a smaller car probably would not have punched thought that wall quite so easily.

Still impressive that given his age and the severity of the accident he was able to walk a way needing only a back support for a few weeks.

Curtain/knee and steering wheel airbags have a lot to answer for most of the time, unless you've been really unlucky from the direction of forces, people just walk out of modern crashes with a couple of scratches and a ringing in your ears from the airbags.....
or with damaged wrists if they've hung on the steering.

Near me idiots knock two foot thick dry stone walls down quite regularly after dark, going way too fast , possibly under the influence of nitrous oxide and/or cognac. Absolutely demolish them!... even dry stone walls which have been reinstated (from previous knocking down) with sand and cement

 

[StevenRB45]

Near me idiots knock two foot thick dry stone walls down quite regularly after dark, going way too fast , possibly under the influence of nitrous oxide and/or cognac. Absolutely demolish them!... even dry stone walls which have been reinstated (from previous knocking down) with sand and cement

In this case that's not a dry stone wall, it seems to be a concrete retaining wall with a veneer of local stone to make it look pretty from the road side with a metal fence bolted or perhaps even cemented in.

The veneer has gone but the concrete road retaining wall hasn't budged an inch, it's not stopped the car though as it just drove over it and bent the fence clean off the top.

It's good he's ok and good he seems to be making positive road safety messages from it but it seems a bit backwards to me to be praising the modern car he was in when if he'd been in an older, smaller, lighter car of the sort the barrier designer likely envisaged it very likely wouldn't have needed to survive the freefall to the road below.

 

[ZaphodB]

It's good he's ok and good he seems to be making positive road safety messages from it but it seems a bit backwards to me to be praising the modern car he was in when if he'd been in an older, smaller, lighter car of the sort the barrier designer likely envisaged it very likely wouldn't have needed to survive the freefall to the road below.

Absoutely , what I was saying wasn't about this guy at all - and I hope he makes a full recovery from the incident, I meant you see car thieves on telly all the time, after a car chase and the inevitable crash, they mostly just get out and run.... all because they've been protected by all the modern safety stuff.
Sorry I didn't give the full context of my remark.

 

[ZaphodB]

In other news I bought a USB adaptor on the 30th on ebay .....

Yesterday realised it hadn't shipped... so I put in a cancel request.... tonight got the message from ebay saying "the seller has refused to cancel the order" and "Unfortunately, the seller let us know that they can no longer cancel this order."

And expected delivery day is between 11th and 18th of August ..........

The seller is located a mere 12 miles away from me ..... so I'm not smiling

 

[PuntoHowTo]

these days cars are stupidly safe compared to years gone by which is why I always laugh when people come on the forum singing the praises of their 4 or 5 NCAP star fiat from 2003. It might have been safe by the standards of the time but by modern standards it really isn’t.

There was a lot of controversy a few years back (around 2017?) when NCAP made the point of retesting the Punto and the panda both of which scored zero stars?

NCAP did it to make a point about cars that have not been updated for years, and it ultimately caused the demise of the Punto and sales of the panda dropped significantly in the following years.

Fiat very quickly updated the safety of the 500 to avoid their cash cow suffering the same fate.

In this instance my medical head kicks in and asks what caused him to crash, rather than worry too much about the injuries he sustained.

Did he have a mini stroke (tia) some sort of cardiac event? Pass out? Blood sugar problem, a cognitive issue? Etc. given no other cars were involved I think no only was he bloody lucky but with a flying 2.5 ton landrover soaring through the sky, so was anyone else on that stretch of road at that time.

 

[ZaphodB]

There was a lot of controversy a few years back (around 2017?) when NCAP made the point of retesting the Punto and the panda both of which scored zero stars?

Wasn't in 2020 when they changed the frontal impact tests was it? https://www.whatcar.com/news/euro-ncap-makes-biggest-changes-to-crash-tests-in-a-decade/n21466

Oh wait it was 2018 https://www.topgear.com/car-news/crash/why-your-old-five-star-ncap-car-isnt-safe-you-think-it

The Fiat Panda zero star is listed there in that article

 

[StevenRB45]

these days cars are stupidly safe compared to years gone by which is why I always laugh when people come on the forum singing the praises of their 4 or 5 NCAP star fiat from 2003. It might have been safe by the standards of the time but by modern standards it really isn’t.

There was a lot of controversy a few years back (around 2017?) when NCAP made the point of retesting the Punto and the panda both of which scored zero stars?

NCAP did it to make a point about cars that have not been updated for years, and it ultimately caused the demise of the Punto and sales of the panda dropped significantly in the following years.

Fiat very quickly updated the safety of the 500 to avoid their cash cow suffering the same fate.

In this instance my medical head kicks in and asks what caused him to crash, rather than worry too much about the injuries he sustained.

Did he have a mini stroke (tia) some sort of cardiac event? Pass out? Blood sugar problem, a cognitive issue? Etc. given no other cars were involved I think no only was he bloody lucky but with a flying 2.5 ton landrover soaring through the sky, so was anyone else on that stretch of road at that time.

I think the issue with this is it all becomes an arms race to who can build the heaviest car.

Also while they are test safe there are issues in terms of real world examples of how they interact with an environment not really designed with such large objects travelling at high speed in mind.

There's examples of the similar vehicles clearing for example the motorway central reservation barrier in the event of a medical episode. If they had been a lower smaller lighter car it would likely have been bounced back into the carriageway with traffic heading in the same direction and likely leaving the road kerbside. Instead they get to have 140mph closing speed impact with someone coming the other way.

So while Fiat was a naughty boy lauding tanks for all is counter productive as 2 2.7 tonne cars hitting eachother head on at 70 is fairly likely catastrophic for all concerned.

Then there's the issue of if you leave the road on your own you're likely to penetrate people's houses...gardens, bus stops, playgrounds, cars etc more easily.

So it doesn't necessarily follow that something that is safer on Ncap is safer for all concerned or even the driver in certain circumstances.

 

[portland_bill]

these days cars are stupidly safe compared to years gone by which is why I always laugh when people come on the forum singing the praises of their 4 or 5 NCAP star fiat from 2003. It might have been safe by the standards of the time but by modern standards it really isn’t.

There was a lot of controversy a few years back (around 2017?) when NCAP made the point of retesting the Punto and the panda both of which scored zero stars?

NCAP did it to make a point about cars that have not been updated for years, and it ultimately caused the demise of the Punto and sales of the panda dropped significantly in the following years.

Fiat very quickly updated the safety of the 500 to avoid their cash cow suffering the same fate.

In this instance my medical head kicks in and asks what caused him to crash, rather than worry too much about the injuries he sustained.

Did he have a mini stroke (tia) some sort of cardiac event? Pass out? Blood sugar problem, a cognitive issue? Etc. given no other cars were involved I think no only was he bloody lucky but with a flying 2.5 ton landrover soaring through the sky, so was anyone else on that stretch of road at that time.

Only yesterday evening I was talking with a friend at the bowls club about various cars. He asked about the Panda, and then what it would be like in a crash. "Like a cardboard box" was my reply. He looked shocked. Not hitting things is a good preventative measure, I think.

 

[StevenRB45]

Only yesterday evening I was talking with a friend at the bowls club about various cars. He asked about the Panda, and then what it would be like in a crash. "Like a cardboard box" was my reply. He looked shocked. Not hitting things is a good preventative measure, I think.

While there's been progress...my feeling on it is that things have really slowed down all the easy gains were made 15-20 years ago beyond that things are stronger but now it seems electric aids are almost more important to NCAP than physical strength of the car.



1998 Vs 2015.

I feel as though if you did the same with 2015 and 2025 it would be significantly more like a meeting of equals.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

While there's been progress...my feeling on it is that things have really slowed down all the easy gains were made 15-20 years ago beyond that things are stronger but now it seems electric aids are almost more important to NCAP than physical strength of the car.



1998 Vs 2015.

I feel as though if you did the same with 2015 and 2025 it would be significantly more like a meeting of equals.

The most effective way to avoid injury in an accident is to not have the accident in the first place, hence the emphasis on electronic aids, most of which are to avoid accidents.

To say these items are useless or pointless is to take the same attitude that people took to airbags when they came out or seat belts before that.

So while crashing two cars together in a giant game of Car conkers looks good on camera realistically the newer car would potentially avoid accidents that the older car would not, or at least would be dependent on the observations, reaction speed and decision making of the driver.

If the driver is looking the wrong way, doesn’t react in time or doesn’t react appropriately, then you have an accident.
The extra layer of protection that electronic aids provide, does at least help avoid some of this situations

 

[sandeel999]

I was very keen on the Ignis for a while but have found out a few things about it I don't like - for instance it's got individual "in wheel" tyre pressure sensors. Kia?

The ignis sensors have a get around, if mine goes funny i just add 5 extra lbs of air and let out hey presto fixed.
Suzuki rung me today to see how the cars going a year after buying, 5th call in a year. also informed me the are extending my 7 year warranty to 10 years if serviced at suzuki.
Yes it's still running great, doing 75mpg on runs of 50 mile plus and hardly ever drops below 57mpg with lots of 4 to 8 mile trips. Looks as good as the day I bought it, and so nice to drive.
I am glad I bought it and gave up the search for a second panda, well yes I am, I love my panda but this has more go, more legroom in back, more space in boot, drives better, more economical, better seats, no real difference in size.
Only moan is ledge by window not as nice to rest elbow on, and the Mrs prefers where the gearstick is on the panda, we can't think of any other way the panda is better than these two small items.
Try one you may be surprised !!!!!!!

 

[StevenRB45]

If the driver is looking the wrong way, doesn’t react in time or doesn’t react appropriately, then you have an accident.
The extra layer of protection that electronic aids provide, does at least help avoid some of this situations

Indeed but a 10 year old car can have all the big ticket items NCAP looks for.

If I want to recreate the new car experience all I need to do is go into the menus and set everything to from "relaxed" to "the car has had 18 coffees in 3 hours" mode and then break all the off buttons.

I will say I am missing out on the "in a contraflow swerve towards the barrier because the white lines don't follow the road" assist..but that's about it.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

The ignis sensors have a get around, if mine goes funny i just add 5 extra lbs of air and let out hey presto fixed.
Suzuki rung me today to see how the cars going a year after buying, 5th call in a year. also informed me the are extending my 7 year warranty to 10 years if serviced at suzuki.
Yes it's still running great, doing 75mpg on runs of 50 mile plus and hardly ever drops below 57mpg with lots of 4 to 8 mile trips. Looks as good as the day I bought it, and so nice to drive.
I am glad I bought it and gave up the search for a second panda, well yes I am, I love my panda but this has more go, more legroom in back, more space in boot, drives better, more economical, better seats, no real difference in size.
Only moan is ledge by window not as nice to rest elbow on, and the Mrs prefers where the gearstick is on the panda, we can't think of any other way the panda is better than these two small items.
Try one you may be surprised !!!!!!!

Poor Becky is ailing again. Now she sounds like she's got a failing bearing somewhere on the front of the engine. Heard it when Mrs J pulled into our hard standing when I was gardening the other day. Sounds like a failing idler bearing - either aux belt or cam belt but could be alternator front bearing, air con compressor pulley, water pump, who knows, I'll have to break out the stethoscope and "listening tube" and take a good look at it. She's due a cam belt anyway. I'm really toiling with larger tasks on the cars now (I'm only a little over a year away from my 80th birthday and, although generally pretty good for my age, I'm finding it's no fun crawling around under cars any more and I'm getting much more satisfaction doing my vintage lawnmowers/cultivators and the occasional elderly motor cycle) Becky is going to need a new back axle to pass her next MOT. She also needs a cambelt as she's slightly over the change interval right now - hopefully a full kit will catch the failing bearing I'm now hearing. Trouble is I'm really not physically up to doing this any more so I'm probably going to have to pay Kenny to do it for me which will be a "silly" amount of money. (but still less that buying another car) Trouble is she's now in her 16th year and I know of a number of other smaller jobs she really needs, like new rear drums etc. Seems to always be something needing done to her now. So, hard as the decision is, maybe it's time for us to part?

I still haven't really ruled the Ignis out and it occurs to me that having access to my mobile tyre fitting chap that the sensors may not be the "problem" my mind is making them out to be - I'd have preferred the ABS system though. My local wee Honda Indy (Steven) is very keen to see us take up with a Jazz. I looked at one when I was thinking of replacing the Ibiza and, whilst being impressed with much of it I found it gutless out on the open road which I thought would be unacceptable for our Devon sorties - The Scala has proved to have been the right choice for that both in terms of performance and comfort - However, now we're looking at a quite different scenario as a replacement for the Panda where it's used for local trips with the occasional run out to my boys south of the city - maybe 60 mile round trip at most - performance is not such a factor. One factor is that the later model Panda seems less numerous around here on the used market. However a big plus is that, when daughter bought her Swift - some years ago now, when she moved away from home - She bought it up here in Edinburgh, as that was the best deal, so I drove it down to Salisbury for her and I liked it. One advantage the Honda has is that Steven is only a couple of miles away, I can walk it in about 20 minutes. Whereas the nearest Suzuki garage is out of town at Wallyford, to the East of Musselburgh. Wouldn't be easy to reach by public transport. Of course I wouldn't be buying a brand new one so maybe Steven and his lads would be able to do the things it needs that I can't manage (being as how he's into Japanese stuff). Still fancy another Panda if I can find the "right" one though.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Soak the alternator bearings with all manner of stuff. They sound un- believable when they get dry. Ours took 6 lots at least and had WD4O, light oil spray, Silicon, GT85 with PTFE. Lather it on slather it on preferablly with the engine tunning. Ill bet its this.You need to get the O/S End from above and the passenger end from below. I have done this with other cars and tge alternators have never complained. Just dont expect once will do it. I bet carefully applued drops of good 5w 40 would be better but spprays with an extension tube are best.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Soak the alternator bearings with all manner of stuff. They sound un- believable when they get dry. Ours took 6 lots at least and had WD4O, light oil spray, Silicon, GT85 with PTFE. Lather it on slather it on preferablly with the engine tunning. Ill bet its this.You need to get the O/S End from above and the passenger end from below. I have done this with other cars and tge alternators have never complained. Just dont expect once will do it. I bet carefully applued drops of good 5w 40 would be better but spprays with an extension tube are best.

Thanks, that sounds logical. I'm going to check with listening stick and tube first though as I'm used to doing it this way. They, no doubt when I've failed to diagnose it, slaister oil all over the place in desperation!

Mrs J needs the car tomorrow - just to drive to the tram terminus where she leaves it and catches the tram across town. Then, loaded with her purchases, drives home again - all of 2 miles I guess. Temp needle will hardly move off cold! With a bit of luck the weekend weather won't be too bad and I'll get to do it then.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Thanks, that sounds logical. I'm going to check with listening stick and tube first though as I'm used to doing it this way. They, no doubt when I've failed to diagnose it, slaister oil all over the place in desperation!

Mrs J needs the car tomorrow - just to drive to the tram terminus where she leaves it and catches the tram across town. Then, loaded with her purchases, drives home again - all of 2 miles I guess. Temp needle will hardly move off cold! With a bit of luck the weekend weather won't be too bad and I'll get to do it then.

I nearly sold Daffo over this. A sort of bearing scraping and some screetching. It couldnt find the source but syspected alternator as its so low it gets bathed in wet weather. Once quiet it was fine foe ages before we did sell it on. Good luck!

 

[StevenRB45]

I still haven't really ruled the Ignis out and it occurs to me that having access to my mobile tyre fitting chap that the sensors may not be the "problem" my mind is making them out to be - I'd have preferred the ABS system though.

I should say have whanged on about ours...it's not been a pick of bother since it was sorted.

They stay with the wheels when you get the tyres changed so you're not paying for them every time you get a new tyre...but if they get damaged or the battery goes flat it's likely 60-80 quid a wheel to sort.

Weirdly don't seem particularly accurate, it was entirely unconcerned when the temperature dropped by more than 10 degrees so all the tyres were down 2.5psi...so would seem to be as "accurate" as an abs system.