What's made you not grumpy but not smile either today?

[PuntoHowTo]

It's more the price, I know they can't price them at cost otherwise no one would buy the electric version they are struggling to sell but it's 53k once you've put metallic paint on it so it'll be in Luxury Car tax territory your road tax will be 600+ quid a year.

It's the same 2.0t as VAG use in everything but massively overworked in this with it's cathedral aero...so it doesn't even achieve 34mpg in official testing.

If they sell any HM treasury need to write a personal thank you letter to the owner. Between fuel duty, vat and road tax you could fully pay for a nice car after 3 years.

All to drive the modern Zafira VXR? They've managed to achieve price parity and performance parity with the dual motor Peugeot 5008 which is similarly large...and similarly targeted but the 5008 is all electric with a 73kwh battery even the 98kwh version is cheaper. This should be 10k less if only because that's how much the tax man will have out of you....

I feel this is a little disingenuous given this is the VRS top of the line model and the Kodiac actually starts at around £36k

But even then £36k is a fair chunk of change. Puts it in the same ball park as the Vauxhall Mokka which starts at a very similar price.

Not that I am defending the prices being applied to new cars as they have exploded ever since covid, that being said prices had not adjusted much over the years and I wondered pre covid how much money they were actually making.

I firmly believe that covid caused a shift in car pricing to make them competitive and less likely to bankrupt the manufacturers.

Back in 1998 my Punto cabrio was around £15.5k new,

By 2018 I suspect your average fiat 500c was probably about the same price despite quite significant inflation over the last 20 years. A similar car now would probably be over £20k so a seemingly sudden increase of £5-6k in a few short years when the prices had remained largely unchanged for decades

 

[StevenRB45]

I feel this is a little disingenuous given this is the VRS top of the line model and the Kodiac actually starts at around £36k

But even then £36k is a fair chunk of change. Puts it in the same ball park as the Vauxhall Mokka which starts at a very similar price.

Not that I am defending the prices being applied to new cars as they have exploded ever since covid, that being said prices had not adjusted much over the years and I wondered pre covid how much money they were actually making.

I firmly believe that covid caused a shift in car pricing to make them competitive and less likely to bankrupt the manufacturers.

Back in 1998 my Punto cabrio was around £15.5k new,

By 2018 I suspect your average fiat 500c was probably about the same price despite quite significant inflation over the last 20 years. A similar car now would probably be over £20k so a seemingly sudden increase of £5-6k in a few short years when the prices had remained largely unchanged for decades

The Mokka is probably a slightly disingenuous example too..in that if you match the hair shirt spec petrol Mokka to the hair shirt petrol Kodiak it's 16 grand less. Also you're out by 8k the Mokka electric starts at less than 30k these days.

I suppose you could compare the Vauxhall 7 seater to the Skoda one...oh the Frontera seems to be 12 grand less in base petrol spec and 12 as an electric car. How about the Grand land? Oh the electric one of those is the same price as the base petrol Skoda..

Whichever way you cut it it's hilariously over priced if you go even one above base SEL spec it's a 600 quid a year to tax. 42 grand for one with the same engine as your Golf..

Chinese are going to cut their legs out from under them given Skoda is the "budget" arm of the group.

Cars have gone up, but given this engine is paid for development, the chassis is an old design, as is the gearbox...and drivetrain they aren't covering much in the way of development costs on what is a heavy facelift.

It seems they are planning to sell half as many cars at twice the margin...and good luck to them in the current market with that.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

When I went on the vx configuration tool the mokka at its lowest price on their was £37k I see if you look at their “offers” there seem to be a lot of cheaper ways to buy a mokka but at the time I wasn’t looking at every model of car it was just one that sprung to my mind to be similarly priced.

In any case I agree the prices for these cars is mad no matter what the spec skoda used to be synonymous with budget friendly cars so £50k+ is just insane.

Of course it is not the total price that buyers are looking at and consumers are being swayed by the monthly price, so with a little messing with the price the £50k car comes in at £400-500 a month and people lap it up.

In fact the total price then comes with bragging rights because the people buying them would never afford such an expensive cars.

In truth I believe they’re massively over inflating the final payment on the PCP deal to make sure people swap it in for a new model, knowing full well that the cars won’t be worth that used but at least they secure the used cars as well as the new.

 

[StevenRB45]

The Griffin spec for whatever reason does not appear on the configurator but it's just under 21k with a petrol engine and just under 30 with electric.

Any who not hugely important..you'd say these cars were built to be discounted but the issue with that the tax is from list. So even if they discounted your entirely sensible mid range Kodiak 2.0 TDI to below 40k it is going to be taxed like a Range Rover.

It's going to make them an interesting proposition second hand in that the cheaper ones may hold their value better than the mid range due to being 425 quid a year cheaper to run for the first 6 years.

It's just barking in general when they said electric cars will reach price parity this wasn't the direction it was meant to go.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

The Griffin spec for whatever reason does not appear on the configurator but it's just under 21k with a petrol engine and just under 30 with electric.

Any who not hugely important..you'd say these cars were built to be discounted but the issue with that the tax is from list. So even if they discounted your entirely sensible mid range Kodiak 2.0 TDI to below 40k it is going to be taxed like a Range Rover.

It's going to make them an interesting proposition second hand in that the cheaper ones may hold their value better than the mid range due to being 425 quid a year cheaper to run for the first 6 years.

It's just barking in general when they said electric cars will reach price parity this wasn't the direction it was meant to go.

My next car is extremely unlikely to be brand new like the last two. I cannot justify the costs they are asking for what in essence are fairly middle ground cars, meanwhile in my mind some of these prices are reaching super car money. One of my current neighbors had until recently a Lamborghini Hurricane, 2015 model, which you can buy for about the same price as a high spec Tesla.

The VW Arteon Shooting brake I have been eyeing up is in the region of £70 - 80k when bought knew (they have now stopped making it so only cars left in stock can be bought new at the moment and so there is no official "new" price, I suspect even brand new they would be heavily discounted, for that sort of money, when I bought my current car, you could buy a pretty nice spec range rover (which would probably have been stolen by now) or some other top end luxury cars. Now it seems cars coming in at over £100k is becoming quite common even with companies lowed down the pecking order.

Meanwhile it seems people do have a lot less disposable income so I just don't understand the pricing structure of current car models.

 

[StevenRB45]

My next car is extremely unlikely to be brand new like the last two. I cannot justify the costs they are asking for what in essence are fairly middle ground cars, meanwhile in my mind some of these prices are reaching super car money. One of my current neighbors had until recently a Lamborghini Hurricane, 2015 model, which you can buy for about the same price as a high spec Tesla.

The VW Arteon Shooting brake I have been eyeing up is in the region of £70 - 80k when bought knew (they have now stopped making it so only cars left in stock can be bought new at the moment and so there is no official "new" price, I suspect even brand new they would be heavily discounted, for that sort of money, when I bought my current car, you could buy a pretty nice spec range rover (which would probably have been stolen by now) or some other top end luxury cars. Now it seems cars coming in at over £100k is becoming quite common even with companies lowed down the pecking order.

Meanwhile it seems people do have a lot less disposable income so I just don't understand the pricing structure of current car models.

Nevermind the costs finding a car you'd want is the trick. Beyond maybe getting a grande panda in a few years I despair. Everything is going to be automatic and or electric, everything will have mandatory speed limit bongs, over the air updates, steering assist and blah blah blah. Then add to that the ridiculous pricing of said wheeled contraption and I just lose all interest.

The Arteon is one of those cars that seems mainly to exist so VW execs don't have to drive Audis. In period by the time you take into account the impact depreciation would have on a lease or PCP you could have been in an RS4 Avant for the same money instead. This is probably why it's dead now..

The pricing structure as you say seems to be a COVID hangover however what they don't seem to be taking into account is that their production model is based on moving a lot more cars than they are due to pricing they are going with. Hence the need to cut factory capacity...and their collision course with the German government.

None of the legacy manufacturers seem to be in good shape but the pricing of that Kodiak just seemed to be so amazingly tone deaf.

 

[SB1500]

The Arteon is one of those cars that seems mainly to exist so VW execs don't have to drive Audis

To me it exists as a symbol of how messed up their whole brand portfolio is nowadays... What happened to:

Skoda - cheap / nasty, but cheap!
Seat - in between VW and Skoda but a little more imaginative / out there designs
VW - working man, little better than the other working mans cars because door close sound 'satisfying'
Audi - more options / slightly more upmarket (in a German way) style
Porsche - performance cars / entry to supercars
Lamborghini - you became a successful CEO and your son needs a flashy car or you're in this situation
Bentley - you're too rich and important to drive but you like cars and there's no suitable ledges for your powder hobby in the other cars

Tell me why they bother with the 'fast lines' inside each badge lineup, why they have overlapping options / equipment / engines. Why did VW need the one with the stupidly huge engine - which nobody now wants to touch due to running costs, and nobody who can afford to run them would be seen dead in a dated looking oversized Passat, you know..

To some extent their model has worked quite well since the 90s but clearly now it's falling apart and the excess is too much to operate with... At least people are buying T-Rocs. Toyota manages to be the biggest car maker in the world with pretty much two options... everyday and premium. Sure, they don't have a Bentley level brand but they seem to be getting by.... I can see Stellantis now, playing VWs own game (big catalogue of brands, much bigger shared R&D budget) improving its cars massively quality wise so can VAG compete with more level competitors and the threat of the Chinese trash that's as disposable as its government views its peoples lives.. Exciting but dull times ahead

 

[PuntoHowTo]

The Arteon is one of those cars that seems mainly to exist so VW execs don't have to drive Audis. In period by the time you take into account the impact depreciation would have on a lease or PCP you could have been in an RS4 Avant for the same money instead. This is probably why it's dead now..

Given the price tag of the RS4 avant being one of those cars that sits north of £100k I can’t agree with that statement. I’m sure however they share the same underpinnings if not the engine

None of the legacy manufacturers seem to be in good shape but the pricing of that Kodiak just seemed to be so amazingly tone deaf.

I have to wonder who the market is for those that want a large 4x4, with £50k + to spend on said car, happy to pay high tax rates and fuel bills for a performance model and then that car to have a skoda badge on the front.

Now there is nothing wrong in my view with a skoda badge but those looking to stand out with an expensive new car, and laud it over their friends or family are hardly willing to spend that sort of money on a skoda, to put it in perspective one of my brothers had a £50k merc GLC in 2017 and we thought that was over priced then and that was for a Mercedes. The Skoda is not going to have quite the same clout that the merc had.

It also becomes a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy, new car prices go up, demand for used cars goes up and so the price of used cars goes up as well, but really the only ones missing out are the dealers/new car market as people stop buying new. It’s not that there isn’t demand for cars, it’s not that there are no people with the budget to buy new cars, it’s just people won’t pay those stupid prices when they can get something used for half the money with 5000 miles on the clock.

Looking on VW approved used cars there were Arteon R shooting brake on their for about £30k off new price with in many case no more than a few thousand miles, usually less than 10k and even one brand new car with delivery milage for about £40-45k which is cheaper than an ID3 in many cases.

 

[StevenRB45]

Given the price tag of the RS4 avant being one of those cars that sits north of £100k I can’t agree with that statement. I’m sure however they share the same underpinnings if not the engine


I have to wonder who the market is for those that want a large 4x4, with £50k + to spend on said car, happy to pay high tax rates and fuel bills for a performance model and then that car to have a skoda badge on the front.

Now there is nothing wrong in my view with a skoda badge but those looking to stand out with an expensive new car, and laud it over their friends or family are hardly willing to spend that sort of money on a skoda, to put it in perspective one of my brothers had a £50k merc GLC in 2017 and we thought that was over priced then and that was for a Mercedes. The Skoda is not going to have quite the same clout that the merc had.

It also becomes a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy, new car prices go up, demand for used cars goes up and so the price of used cars goes up as well, but really the only ones missing out are the dealers/new car market as people stop buying new. It’s not that there isn’t demand for cars, it’s not that there are no people with the budget to buy new cars, it’s just people won’t pay those stupid prices when they can get something used for half the money with 5000 miles on the clock.

Looking on VW approved used cars there were Arteon R shooting brake on their for about £30k off new price with in many case no more than a few thousand miles, usually less than 10k and even one brand new car with delivery milage for about £40-45k which is cheaper than an ID3 in many cases.

May have accidentally dropped an R onto the start the S4 Avant would have done to be an Arteon equivalent. I say equivalent...it's got a boosted V6 diesel rather than the worst sounding performance engine of modern times (seriously DSG trombone..). So not only was it similarly fast...but it would sound better and likely achieve better real world economy.

Either way back in the day as it were...total price didn't matter as long as your credit was good enough for the full ticket you're only really financing the difference between point a and point b not the price of the car. A car that loses 30k in a few thousand miles and continues on a similar trajectory over 4 years is going to be a very expensive lease/PCP. Was it 20k or so for a 4 year old one so 75% loss of value in 4 years?

Badge wise...I remember saying when Ford killed the Fiesta and VW started making noises about killing the polo they both decided to head into upmarket electric vehicles. Not everyone can be premium...if you're at Merc and BMW money without the badge to match it's not going to sell.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

May have accidentally dropped an R onto the start the S4 Avant would have done to be an Arteon equivalent. I say equivalent...it's got a boosted V6 diesel rather than the worst sounding performance engine of modern times (seriously DSG trombone..). So not only was it similarly fast...but it would sound better and likely achieve better real world economy.

Not a bad suggestion I might add it to the list.

I do quite like the sound of the Arteon R, sound isn’t the important part anyway, it’s what it’s like to drive. So I can compare the Arteon R and the Audi S4 actually I think I’d lean more towards the S5 avant, but would be an interesting comparison. The 4 pot in the Arteon is a tried and tested engine, and are not prone to problems, they can take way more power than they put out despite their diminutive capacity. The DSG box on the other hand….. any Audi however is going to be much the same.

Going back a long time now I remember when VW launched the Phaeton and the Tourag V10 in the early - mid 2000s and back then they were not a “Luxury” brand. But at the time both cars were considered extremely luxurious and a strange step for VW, they didn’t sell well but that didn’t mean they were bad cars.

in many respects VW have become the company that makes cars that owners like but are not for shoving down the throats of other people. It’s the main reason I bought the golf. The likes of an Audi with an S badge isn’t really my thing though if it makes sense it’s worth considering. You can buy a VW with a very high end set of kit onboard, and the same level of luxury as you’d get in your Audi or for that matter merc/bmw, but without shouting to the world “steal me” I get that the VW R colour is a racing blue but you can get the R models in plenty of other colours, and the only people who might actually know what you are driving is another VW owner, who probably couldn’t care less.

What do you drive “a golf” conversation done, no need to explain it, nothing more to talk about everyone knows what it is, what it does and what it costs. VW says to other people, “this person owns a vehicle” and that’s pretty much it.

A friend of mines partner has a golf mk7, could I tell you any more about it? No! Could I care less? No!

So if it did get something like the Arteon or anything else for that matter I wouldn’t care all that much what anyone else things about it, if I like it.

 

[StevenRB45]

I would say all the local Hotbois will know what an R is...given most of them seem to have a Golf R with a crackle tune at some point. Admittedly probably the same one passed round. I understand they have speakers in the cabin to make it sound interesting but having heard many hours of people flooring it out of the village up the hill past my front room..the only worse sound is a 1.9pd with a drain pipe exhaust.

While a standard Arteon or Golf is reasonably classless I think you may be kidding yourself in terms of it going un-noticed. They haven't made headlines for being nicked unlike the Golf R but they are also so rare that if 100% of them got nicked it wouldn't be anywhere near the base line for a fiesta ST.

That and I have an Arteon is not the same as I have a Golf. Golf needs no explanation because everyone knows what a Golf is...an Arteon may need further explanation in the same way as if I said I drive a Mercedes GLA you can't picture car immediately without Google.

Of course I cannot remember the last time anyone asked me what I drive...which is shame as I hate conversations about Football and love island.

Not to say I don't like the car...at the money they are they are a very good proposition but the money they are is a reflection of how mad the idea of the car was to start with. Should make an interesting case study in if the mechanically and thematically similar Skoda retains more value due to being an SUV.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Not to say I don't like the car...at the money they are they are a very good proposition but the money they are is a reflection of how mad the idea of the car was to start with. Should make an interesting case study in if the mechanically and thematically similar Skoda retains more value due to being an SUV.

Stick an R badge on a VW and it retains its value. (Not the R line)

I know we are talking about huge drops in value from the “new” price but that’s the whole point in the conversation the “new price” is insane, If you took the car at £40k rather than £60-70k then it is a much better deal and cars have not lost huge sums from the 40k price.

Same with the golf r, a pre covid car which would have cost around £30-35k is currently selling for 20-25k 5-6 years on

As for explaining the car, if someone were to ask what I drive, the response is usually “a Volkswagen” that alone is usually enough to imply that it’s not worth pursuing the conversation further, with an Arteon, I might be inclined to say it’s a “Passat estate” or it’s an “Arteon, like a Passat” if pushed. The point being to kill the conversation because I buy cars for me rather than for the praise of other people, I know we talk about it here, but then this is a car forum and the topic of conversation is largely cars.

I get rapidly fed up with people who ask me what I drive or strike up a conversation about cars only to then tell me all the reasons they believe my car choice is wrong…. On a car forum it’s a bit different l, we’re here to talk about cars, but at say a party or dinner party with someone I’ve never met before, I couldn’t care less what your brother’s, son’s, friend’s, dad’s, Sister’s, boyfriend’s cousin said about a particular car.

A prime example being told that VWs are unreliable because of some anecdotal story….. I could counter this with my own experience but how is this any different to their claims… and thus not worth wasting my breath on the conversation. You say they are unreliable, I’ve not found that at all, so cool story, let’s talk about something else.

Of course I may completely flip and change my mind about what I buy, or even if I buy anything at all, but right now I am playing with the idea.

The VRS skoda uses I believe the same engine as the Arteon R just de-tuned and while it is an SUV, it is more likely to retain value based on it being the VRS rather than being an SUV, I doubt the VRS is anywhere near as well equipped.

 

[portland_bill]

ICE car pricing seems to be higher than justified, but I think this is to make the price of EVs more acceptable. There is pressure to sell more EVs, with percentage quotas from government. Whilst there are many reasons to not choose an EV, for many people they will work, as range is not really an issue for most people, as most just commute short distances. Price is a significant factor, but by pricing ICE vehicles higher, the EV looks less unattractive.

I think VW have done the badge engineering thing quite well, with Skoda as the budget brand, SEAT as sporting, VW as mainstream and Audi as executive. When looking for a school car, I needed something that was easy to live with for the learners. Having had a string of Fiestas with the AA, that was definitely not on my list. I narrowed it down to Corsa and Fabia. Fabia won, due to several factors. Fewer 'toys', so learners have to learn when and how to put on headlamps, wipers and heating. Better visibility with the lower window line. 6 years later, still happy with it. It just keeps doing what it does without fuss. Under the skin, it is all VW branded parts, so parts are plentiful, and not expensive.

 

[SB1500]

ICE car pricing seems to be higher than justified, but I think this is to make the price of EVs more acceptable.

This has been my theory over the past few years. Trying to potentially offset the cost of the R&D going into the EVs too by over charging for ICE and also synthetically proving the point in the numbers that 'sales are falling of ICE', alongside 'sales of EVs are rising again!' (yeah...from what, zero?!)..

With all the car companies having dropped the D-segment and saloons as a body style, along with things like dropping 3-door models... I have to wonder, did people stop buying them and start buying crossovers or are they just forcing us into the crossover given they know they need properly developed platforms for holding big batteries and that this can never be done in small cars well, at a non astronomical cost... Is it 'they know what we want better than we do, and much sooner' or not? I reckon the likes of the big companies having to merge together and GM leaving... that perhaps these big companies don't know as much about what they're doing in any way that reflects the rates of which they put large sums of money into. Although I'm sure that mechanics and car owners everywhere in Europe probably got together to celebrate GM's exit.

 

[StevenRB45]

Think I'm going to write to Gateshead council and request some Vinegar and chips..

 

[StevenRB45]

Not that there's a stereotype that goes with this sort of car at all...but.

 

[SB1500]

Not that there's a stereotype that goes with this sort of car at all...but.

View attachment 458896

Who finances a Bentley?!

 

[porta]

@ben i love this new feature of the forum…
Now, can anybody spot it?

 

[bugsymike]

@ben i love this new feature of the forum…
Now, can anybody spot it?

Tomorrow?
Any betting tips?

 

[porta]

Tomorrow?
Any betting tips?

I want the lottery numbers