What's made you grumpy today?

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

That’s exactly what I got…ever since the US healthcare group ‘modality’ got there hands on it it’s been ‘two weeks’ that turn into four
As for the booking system, it only shows two weeks and it is ALWAYS booked out…the only option is to go back to GP reception and back to square one ffs

Pretty much what it's like up here too. Daily appointments are supposedly released at 08.00hrs and 13.30hrs ring before those times and you just get diverted to 111 which gets you nowhere. Even if you preload the phone number into the phone and punch the connect button at exactly 08.00 or 13.30 you get a message telling you you are number 24 - or whatever - in then queue. By the time you get an answer there are no appointments available. I once managed to end up number 8 in the queue but still there were no appointments - how can that be? If you then ask for a future appointment you get told they are only available a month in advance - only released monthly - and there are none available at that time, would you like to go on the "waiting for a cancellation" listing? Tried that, noone ever rang me back.

We did get some action when I thought Mrs J had stopped breathing. An ambulance arrived quite quickly on that occasion and when I had an internal Haemorrhoid burst and, spectacularly, dump the equivalent of about a mug full of blood out of my rear end. Rang the surgery but got the usual deflection. Unsurprisingly both Mrs J and I were very worried about me and, having heard how long you might wait for an ambulance, decide to just go round to the surgery. Mrs J covered the passenger seat in the car with a couple of bin bags and I put on half a dozen pairs of underpants and put a towel on top of the bin bags - I was more worried about the upholstery than about me! Mrs J drove me round to the surgery and I walked in demanding to see a doctor. Sorry all appointments taken! can you believe it? So I said, in a loud voice, "Look, there's blood, as you can see, pouring out of my bottom, It's not meant to do that so I'm pretty sure there's something seriously wrong here and I need to see a Doc NOW!" On that occasion I was seen immediately and the haemorrhoid quickly diagnosed. He said it had already stopped bleeding in any quantity and applied a dressing, gave me suppositories and sent me home.

Mrs J's breathing problem centres around chronic sleep apnea. She's snored for years, to such an extent I'd moved out to the spare room so didn't realise how bad she'd got until we shared a bed on holiday about 3 years ago. She as good as stopped breathing repeatedly throughout the night which was terrifying for me. I was afraid to go to sleep in case I woke up and found she'd popped off! Anyway, when we got back home she somehow managed to get a consultation with the doc who referred her on to the sleep clinic. We waited and waited and waited until eventually they told her she might be assessed in about a year or thereabouts. Only after the assessment might action then result and it would likely be some time after that before any breathing equipment would be allocated. I couldn't live with that so we contacted a private organisation which specialises in sleep apnea and they assessed her immediately and quickly consulted with her over what action was to be taken. A CPAP machine arrived almost immediately with 3 different mask configurations for her to try and the promise that if they weren't to her liking others were available. The machine is linked to their monitoring centre online so she's monitored in real time all night and they have regular contact with her to discuss anything which comes up in the monitoring. It really is a wonderful service. We do have to pay for it but it's not a fortune and well worth it for the peace of mind. Also the equipment is fully portable with it's own carry case so goes on holiday with us. Mrs J's sister has similar problems and has a national health machine which is considerably bigger and less easily transported but the big difference is, although monitored, there doesn't seem to be feedback except at meetings with her doctor, which are months apart. If Mrs J were to stop breathing in the night the monitoring centre would instantly ring me and I could go through to look at her. Wouldn't happen with her sister and I know because at the last doctor's meeting he looked at her record and asked her "why do you only wear your mask for about an hour every night" So their records show what she's doing but no-one is following up on it. She doesn't wear it because she finds it uncomfortable and has never been offered any alternative masks to try - maybe NHS machines don't have much of a choice?

I've grown up with the NHS and hold it very dear, after all I've paid enough into it over the years, Until quite recently I comforted myself by thinking that if something really serious happened to me - Cancer etc - I'd be immediately cared for and given the best treatment immediately. No longer, now I think it really is, in many respects, broken. I fear private medicine is slowly creeping up on us and I feel very angry about it. We've got elections coming up soon here in Scotland and they're already knocking on the doors trying to drum up support. I don't really think it makes much difference which of the parties, who are realistically likely to be in office at the end of the process, you vote for. Non of them seem to be able to sort out the almighty mess this country is in. So, I know people say you should always vote, but I can't see the point and feel so depressed by the whole mess that, for the first time in my life, I think I shall abstain this time round

 

[The Panda Nut]

Pretty much what it's like up here too. Daily appointments are supposedly released at 08.00hrs and 13.30hrs ring before those times and you just get diverted to 111 which gets you nowhere. Even if you preload the phone number into the phone and punch the connect button at exactly 08.00 or 13.30 you get a message telling you you are number 24 - or whatever - in then queue. By the time you get an answer there are no appointments available. I once managed to end up number 8 in the queue but still there were no appointments - how can that be? If you then ask for a future appointment you get told they are only available a month in advance - only released monthly - and there are none available at that time, would you like to go on the "waiting for a cancellation" listing? Tried that, noone ever rang me back.

We did get some action when I thought Mrs J had stopped breathing. An ambulance arrived quite quickly on that occasion and when I had an internal Haemorrhoid burst and, spectacularly, dump the equivalent of about a mug full of blood out of my rear end. Rang the surgery but got the usual deflection. Unsurprisingly both Mrs J and I were very worried about me and, having heard how long you might wait for an ambulance, decide to just go round to the surgery. Mrs J covered the passenger seat in the car with a couple of bin bags and I put on half a dozen pairs of underpants and put a towel on top of the bin bags - I was more worried about the upholstery than about me! Mrs J drove me round to the surgery and I walked in demanding to see a doctor. Sorry all appointments taken! can you believe it? So I said, in a loud voice, "Look, there's blood, as you can see, pouring out of my bottom, It's not meant to do that so I'm pretty sure there's something seriously wrong here and I need to see a Doc NOW!" On that occasion I was seen immediately and the haemorrhoid quickly diagnosed. He said it had already stopped bleeding in any quantity and applied a dressing, gave me suppositories and sent me home.

Mrs J's breathing problem centres around chronic sleep apnea. She's snored for years, to such an extent I'd moved out to the spare room so didn't realise how bad she'd got until we shared a bed on holiday about 3 years ago. She as good as stopped breathing repeatedly throughout the night which was terrifying for me. I was afraid to go to sleep in case I woke up and found she'd popped off! Anyway, when we got back home she somehow managed to get a consultation with the doc who referred her on to the sleep clinic. We waited and waited and waited until eventually they told her she might be assessed in about a year or thereabouts. Only after the assessment might action then result and it would likely be some time after that before any breathing equipment would be allocated. I couldn't live with that so we contacted a private organisation which specialises in sleep apnea and they assessed her immediately and quickly consulted with her over what action was to be taken. A CPAP machine arrived almost immediately with 3 different mask configurations for her to try and the promise that if they weren't to her liking others were available. The machine is linked to their monitoring centre online so she's monitored in real time all night and they have regular contact with her to discuss anything which comes up in the monitoring. It really is a wonderful service. We do have to pay for it but it's not a fortune and well worth it for the peace of mind. Also the equipment is fully portable with it's own carry case so goes on holiday with us. Mrs J's sister has similar problems and has a national health machine which is considerably bigger and less easily transported but the big difference is, although monitored, there doesn't seem to be feedback except at meetings with her doctor, which are months apart. If Mrs J were to stop breathing in the night the monitoring centre would instantly ring me and I could go through to look at her. Wouldn't happen with her sister and I know because at the last doctor's meeting he looked at her record and asked her "why do you only wear your mask for about an hour every night" So their records show what she's doing but no-one is following up on it. She doesn't wear it because she finds it uncomfortable and has never been offered any alternative masks to try - maybe NHS machines don't have much of a choice?

I've grown up with the NHS and hold it very dear, after all I've paid enough into it over the years, Until quite recently I comforted myself by thinking that if something really serious happened to me - Cancer etc - I'd be immediately cared for and given the best treatment immediately. No longer, now I think it really is, in many respects, broken. I fear private medicine is slowly creeping up on us and I feel very angry about it. We've got elections coming up soon here in Scotland and they're already knocking on the doors trying to drum up support. I don't really think it makes much difference which of the parties, who are realistically likely to be in office at the end of the process, you vote for. Non of them seem to be able to sort out the almighty mess this country is in. So, I know people say you should always vote, but I can't see the point and feel so depressed by the whole mess that, for the first time in my life, I think I shall abstain this time round

I totally agree the system no longer works, and Im in fear of needing it for real in a hurry. Why Oh why dont they just put tax up to pay for the necessary cost of a properly resouced health service. As it is I no longer trust the NHS as far as I could throw it. This is very alarming. If a labour government with a huge majority wont fix it, its dead. My neck, back and shoulders are hurting, Its bad to awful. I tried to get an apointment with my doctor. ALL their systems and phone were dead due to 'problems' so I rang 111 as instructed. Go to hospital... OK so I went only to be diverted for cardiac tests. I left without help in great pain. Im paying £250 a month for private treatment, and have been for some years. I couldnt give a fig for a few more £ in tax if they just put the system right. Its time for some action as we are at the point of no return with this,

My son and DILs Insurance cost for medical cover in the US is staggeringly expensive so fixing the NHS is a cost effective thing for us all. I wouldnt get cover for £250 a month, but a fraction of this from everyone would resolve the problems.

 

[porta]

It’s not the private healthcare is creeping up, it’s being forced on us by US/UK lobbyists and bought politicians, ever since thatcher and blair…there’s very little in the NHS that’s run, owned or subied by and for the NHS

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I totally agree the system no longer works, and Im in fear of needing it for real in a hurry. Why Oh why dont they just put tax up to pay for the necessary cost of a properly resouced health service. As it is I no longer trust the NHS as far as I could throw it. This is very alarming. If a labour government with a huge majority wont fix it, its dead. My neck, back and shoulders are hurting, Its bad to awful. I tried to get an apointment with my doctor. ALL their systems and phone were dead due to 'problems' so I rang 111 as instructed. Go to hospital... OK so I went only to be diverted for cardiac tests. I left without help in great pain. Im paying £250 a month for private treatment, and have been for some years. I couldnt give a fig for a few more £ in tax if they just put the system right. Its time for some action as we are at the point of no return with this,

My son and DILs Insurance cost for nmedical cover in the US is staggeringly expensive so fixing the NHS is a cost effective thing for us all. I wouldnt get cover for £250 a month, but a fraction of this from everyone would resolve the problems.

Daughter, son in law and kids, as I've mentioned before, lived in Southern Maryland for just over 5 years. His employer gave them a very generous health insurance package but it didn't cover absolutely everything. One of the kids needed cosmetic dental work which they were advised would be more difficult if they waited until they went back to the UK. It wasn't covered by the insurance. The cost almost caused me a heart attack when they told me!

The thing about the money needed for the NHS which really annoys me is when you hear off and see how much is being spent on other stuff like Taxis we now hear migrants are being put in for hospital appointments and so much more. We really need to wind our necks in and only fund what we can properly afford from the public purse. And yes, that's going to mean difficult cuts, but we've got to get real and "bite the bullet" so basic important stuff, like the NHS can be adequately funded. Management wastage needs sorted too!

 

[PuntoHowTo]

The thing about the money needed for the NHS which really annoys me is when you hear off and see how much is being spent on other stuff like Taxis we now hear migrants are being put in for hospital appointments and so much more. We really need to wind our necks in and only fund what we can properly afford from the public purse. And yes, that's going to mean difficult cuts, but we've got to get real and "bite the bullet" so basic important stuff, like the NHS can be adequately funded. Management wastage needs sorted too!

So just to answer that to some degree (as I currently work in an NHS trust in management, hate me I know)

Sometimes it may be more cost effective to put someone in a taxi to attend an appointment once, rather than have them call an ambulance and take up A&E time for something they should see their GP about, this isn’t just migrants it’s Brits as well.

You might justify putting someone in a B&B over night to get them out of hospital a day earlier because a £50 a night B&B is far cheaper than a £600 a night inpatient bed.
Things are often done on a case by case basis and are not some blanket policy that gives a single group access to something while excluding everyone else.

I’ve known people who so badly look after their health conditions that they literally make themselves a massive burden on services, and if putting them in a taxi and taking them to every appointment means that they won’t have both legs amputated (like someone with severely poorly controlled diabetes) there are arguments to be made that these actioned are done to save significant amounts of money for NHS trusts.

The trusts would very much rather not waste money on seemingly frivolous expenses but their hands can be often tied but how the public use or don’t use services appropriately.

 

[bugsymike]

So just to answer that to some degree (as I currently work in an NHS trust in management, hate me I know)

Sometimes it may be more cost effective to put someone in a taxi to attend an appointment once, rather than have them call an ambulance and take up A&E time for something they should see their GP about, this isn’t just migrants it’s Brits as well.

You might justify putting someone in a B&B over night to get them out of hospital a day earlier because a £50 a night B&B is far cheaper than a £600 a night inpatient bed.
Things are often done on a case by case basis and are not some blanket policy that gives a single group access to something while excluding everyone else.

I’ve known people who so badly look after their health conditions that they literally make themselves a massive burden on services, and if putting them in a taxi and taking them to every appointment means that they won’t have both legs amputated (like someone with severely poorly controlled diabetes) there are arguments to be made that these actioned are done to save significant amounts of money for NHS trusts.

The trusts would very much rather not waste money on seemingly frivolous expenses but their hands can be often tied but how the public use or don’t use services appropriately.

I think the point is, many of us older people have seen the NHS which was rightly held up across the world for it's excellence sadly deterioate.
I agree people should be resonsible about looking after their general health, in particular re weight and smoking.
However when many of us have worked all our lives and paid our taxes for over fifty years and are unable to get treatment that is offered at our expense, to those who have contributed nothing to this Country does seem blatently unfair, however some much some try to defend it.

 

[porta]

I think the point is, many of us older people have seen the NHS which was rightly held up across the world for it's excellence sadly deterioate.
I agree people should be resonsible about looking after their general health, in particular re weight and smoking.
However when many of us have worked all our lives and paid our taxes for over fifty years and are unable to get treatment that is offered at our expense, to those who have contributed nothing to this Country does seem blatently unfair, however some much some try to defend it.

Please don’t fall for the migrant thing, they much like tourists, pay, it’s via a scheme that is ‘payback’. This also operates to cover other costs. They don’t get benefits for two years, they can’t get an NHS number without NI, they have to work…except for immediate housing, they are generally transferred to unused and/or scheduled redevelopment hotels (most to be pulled down and rebuilt), even their accommodation has been outsourced, so companies are making big money from this, also, the recent publicity around students getting kicked out of their accommodation is also a lie, it’s Leeds, the blocks are nasty, crime ridden and badly built and maintained, they’ve been empty for two years

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

So just to answer that to some degree (as I currently work in an NHS trust in management, hate me I know)

Sometimes it may be more cost effective to put someone in a taxi to attend an appointment once, rather than have them call an ambulance and take up A&E time for something they should see their GP about, this isn’t just migrants it’s Brits as well.

You might justify putting someone in a B&B over night to get them out of hospital a day earlier because a £50 a night B&B is far cheaper than a £600 a night inpatient bed.
Things are often done on a case by case basis and are not some blanket policy that gives a single group access to something while excluding everyone else.

I’ve known people who so badly look after their health conditions that they literally make themselves a massive burden on services, and if putting them in a taxi and taking them to every appointment means that they won’t have both legs amputated (like someone with severely poorly controlled diabetes) there are arguments to be made that these actioned are done to save significant amounts of money for NHS trusts.

The trusts would very much rather not waste money on seemingly frivolous expenses but their hands can be often tied but how the public use or don’t use services appropriately.

No, don't hate you at all, if anything have pity for you trying to cope with this. It's a complex massive mess which I'm just so glad I'm not having to sort out in any way. Trouble from our point of view is the perception that relative chaos reigns and massive amounts of money are being allocated to helping some poor folk who have done nothing to contribute. - I don't question they need the attention. Of course there's other stuff like the bed blocking problem which seem to defy all attempts to sort out and how none of us seem to be able to just get a simple timeous appointment to see our GP. I'm deeply worried, as I'm pretty old with some health problems, that it's virtually impossible to get an appointment or even book a future date to see my GP. It's not that it takes a long time, appointments just don't seem to be possible unless you are literally on death's door and even then it's a trip to the hospital which results, not a visit to the GP. This notwithstanding, I wish you well and hope trying to sort this out and deal with the daily crap which I'm sure comes your way, is not impacting on your general well being.

 

[bugsymike]

Please don’t fall for the migrant thing, they much like tourists, pay, it’s via a scheme that is ‘payback’. This also operates to cover other costs. They don’t get benefits for two years, they can’t get an NHS number without NI, they have to work…except for immediate housing, they are generally transferred to unused and/or scheduled redevelopment hotels (most to be pulled down and rebuilt), even their accommodation has been outsourced, so companies are making big money from this, also, the recent publicity around students getting kicked out of their accommodation is also a lie, it’s Leeds, the blocks are nasty, crime ridden and badly built and maintained, they’ve been empty for two years

Sorry I don't agree. Even the local paper whilst mentioning a issue on the barge said they were all queueing up for Dentists and Doctor,s that were brought onto the barge for them. My own children cannot get registered with a dentist and have lived and worked in the Bay all their lives.
I don't condone any violence or protesting, however it does seem the general kindness and goodwill of this Country is being taken the "mickey" of, so undermining our sense of "fair play" and values.

 

[porta]

Sorry I don't agree. Even the local paper whilst mentioning a issue on the barge said they were all queueing up for Dentists and Doctor,s that were brought onto the barge for them. My own children cannot get registered with a dentist and have lived and worked in the Bay all their lives.
I don't condone any violence or protesting, however it does seem the general kindness and goodwill of this Country is being taken the "mickey" of, so undermining our sense of "fair play" and values.

Again, it’s all being charged privately
I’ve a surgeon friend, expert in musculoskeletal, and he’s bumping up his pension, by doing more and more private referrals to his clinic from the NHS. This has a knock on effect as he takes with him an anaesthetist and theatre manager and nurse, all out of time and expertise usually dedicated to NHS work. I don’t blame him as the pay is really good, but it seems it’s a deliberate ploy, as some economists say, to defund public service to the extent that it fails, then claim it isn’t working and hand it iver to private entities. Two of his friends have migrated, one to NZ and the other to Norway or Sweden for better conditions.
There’s a steady drip of healthcare professionals migrating

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Migrants don’t bother me at all, you should get angry about the massive number of entitled brits who completely abuse the system. Phoning ambulances every time they want a “doctors appointment” for a free lift to the hospital and then sit in A&E for hours to discuss their cold.

The people who pick up millions of pounds of medications Every year and don’t take them.

Then on the flip side the doctors and nurses who are leaving the NHS on mass because it doesn’t pay enough, for the terrible conditions they have to work in not to mention the money they have to pay just to go to work… my wife has to pay a shocking amount for parking at the hospital she works and over £400 a year just to renew her registration with the GMC £600-1000 a time for professional exams (she has to pay that her self) many of the kids going though university are begining to realise it’s a far better life to do a few years in investment banking rather than take up positions in the nhs as doctors once they qualify.

The reason that it’s so hard to get a GP appointment is that no one wants to be a GP. It’s got zero to do with migrants

 

[bugsymike]

Migrants don’t bother me at all, you should get angry about the massive number of entitled brits who completely abuse the system. Phoning ambulances every time they want a “doctors appointment” for a free lift to the hospital and then sit in A&E for hours to discuss their cold.

The people who pick up millions of pounds of medications Every year and don’t take them.

Then on the flip side the doctors and nurses who are leaving the NHS on mass because it doesn’t pay enough, for the terrible conditions they have to work in not to mention the money they have to pay just to go to work… my wife has to pay a shocking amount for parking at the hospital she works and over £400 a year just to renew her registration with the GMC £600-1000 a time for professional exams (she has to pay that her self) many of the kids going though university are begining to realise it’s a far better life to do a few years in investment banking rather than take up positions in the nhs as doctors once they qualify.

The reason that it’s so hard to get a GP appointment is that no one wants to be a GP. It’s got zero to do with migrants

OK, I think we can all find examples from both sides of the argument.
Perhaps you can explain to me where the problem lies, as from the patients point of view more and more money goes towards the NHS each year and yet we are not getting the quality of service we got even twenty years ago.
It is clearly not going to the front line staff as they obviously feel over worked, undervalued and under paid.

 

[porta]

OK, I think we can all find examples from both sides of the argument.
Perhaps you can explain to me where the problem lies, as from the patients point of view more and more money goes towards the NHS each year and yet we are not getting the quality of service we got even twenty years ago.
It is clearly not going to the front line staff as they obviously feel over worked, undervalued and under paid.

Because more and more money is being paid to private ‘healthcare’

 

[SB1500]

I don’t think anyone has any issue with migrants, I think it’s the unregistered / unvetted ones… But the news prefer the term ‘far right’ over anything actually explaining or solving the issues we all argue to death over (especially online). We have our own migrant problem for the longest time in NI in the form of people crossing the border, using the NHS and never contributing. It’s probably a key part of why we’re a net drain on the UK, that and our brainless NI politicians that make both Boris and Corbyn look like high-IQ geniuses in comparison…

Anyway, £200 lighter… got the four cheap new TPMS sensors fitted today. Fairly fast, hassle free and the guy reckons they’ve had no issues with em in the four years they’ve been fitting them (we’ll see - my hope / expectation is two years before I need to replace em one by one with genuine again). but the b*stards stole.. forgot to put back on my Lexus genuine silver caps. Better not see them on that weird abused looking 2000s Lexus estate-looking monstrosity with lowered suspension that was sitting outside between a bunch of vans and old VW products in the same sorry looking state.

bonus: interested in dental pain? Read below!
Another one, horrible tooth feeling over the weekend. Flossed it.. I mean, I over flossed the hell out of it. It felt so soothing. But left my mouth really sore and kept me up on Sunday night… dentist first thing on Monday 9am, appointment at 9.45 (private health providers at least for dental are worth their weight in gold when you need them). “You’ve damaged your gums / caused some trauma but it should heal in 5 days”… My bad. They didn’t even charge for that which was nice. Lived with the minor discomfort and staying away from the flossing… woke up about 11 times last night (because of my watch I now know exactly how badly or well I sleep..). This morning, first bite of porridge. An absolute hell storm of pain right through the tooth above the damaged gum… seemingly from nowhere. Whole side of my face hurt, never had a toothache like this before. Waited about 2-3 minutes for it to subside. Tried again. Nope, absolutely not. Went back to the dentist, had to stick it out until 12.40 but not so bad. Except… it was. Double paracetamol. Couldn’t eat, so couldn’t do ibuprofen. After an hour felt a bit more peaceful… got a Huel down me. Some kind of lining… pain came back bad, I mean active big time pain in waves. Couldn’t even think straight. Ibuprofen. Didn’t really do much. Someone suggested clove oil…pharmacist wouldn’t even give it to me knowing I had an appointment in case it was an abscess. More pain. More waiting. Got in to the appointment.. did the cold… tap… had a look, no real issues they could find. One tooth didn’t respond to the cold. But they still didn’t want to do much to it in case it was another tooth (something to do with how the irritated nerves work). They numbed it to see if that removed the pain, it did… pain gone. Never been so grateful in my life for anaesthetic, the feeling of the needle knowing it was going to end the pain actually felt good. That’s how bad it was. And it did its magic. Told to come back later, root canal… also, if it leads to the end of this pain… feels like a natural and appealing choice. Hopefully that’ll sort it. Next part to be done soon. Said the tooth itself looked healthy but there were signs the nerve was dying (no idea how that makes sense)…. The anaesthetic is wearing off now. Thankfully nothing too sore. And if so, hopefully this time the painkillers work. It was a bit scary taking full doses of both for them to pretty much do nothing. So thankful we live in a country where this stuff is just available and within reach. And you know… all of it was invented and perfected before it happened to me. Phew.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Perhaps you can explain to me where the problem lies, as from the patients point of view more and more money goes towards the NHS each year and yet we are not getting the quality of service we got even twenty years ago.

Just the cost of everything has exploded well over and above any increase to the budget for the NHS as a whole.

For example.

The budget of the NHS has effectively doubled in the last 20 years well a little more than doubled, about 80bn in 2005 to around 180bn now.

However the cost of electricity has quadrupled in that time. This has been a massive burden on the budget of my trust. I think the total NHS bill for electricity is something like £1.5-£1.6bn but 20 years ago it would have been a quarter of the price. I know this is only 1 item or service that the NHS buys but now imagine every single item the NHS buys had increased in price to the same extent over that period, then on top if that the treatment's medications equipment had become much more advanced in that time meaning the treatment for an illness 20 years ago was maybe £10k with a 50% chance of being successful. Now 20 years on that same treatment is now £50k but there is an 90% chance of it being successful. It doesn't make economical sense to use the cheaper treatment, but now you are spending 5 times the amount on each patient.

In essence the budget of the NHS has gone up and considerably so over the last 20 years, but prices of heath care as a whole have gone up disproportionately more.
one of the ways the government (especially the conservative government from 2010) have kept the costs down is by pay freeze after pay freeze.
So nurses of which there are 400k of in the NHS have seen a real terms 20% pay cut over the last 15 years since 2010 doctors and other staff have seen the same.

Basically the budget amount goes up, but the amount that money buys each year is getting less and less, which means cuts to services.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Just the cost of everything has exploded well over and above any increase to the budget for the NHS as a whole.

For example.

The budget of the NHS has effectively doubled in the last 20 years well a little more than doubled, about 80bn in 2005 to around 180bn now.

However the cost of electricity has quadrupled in that time. This has been a massive burden on the budget of my trust. I think the total NHS bill for electricity is something like £1.5-£1.6bn but 20 years ago it would have been a quarter of the price. I know this is only 1 item or service that the NHS buys but now imagine every single item the NHS buys had increased in price to the same extent over that period, then on top if that the treatment's medications equipment had become much more advanced in that time meaning the treatment for an illness 20 years ago was maybe £10k with a 50% chance of being successful. Now 20 years on that same treatment is now £50k but there is an 90% chance of it being successful. It doesn't make economical sense to use the cheaper treatment, but now you are spending 5 times the amount on each patient.

In essence the budget of the NHS has gone up and considerably so over the last 20 years, but prices of heath care as a whole have gone up disproportionately more.
one of the ways the government (especially the conservative government from 2010) have kept the costs down is by pay freeze after pay freeze.
So nurses of which there are 400k of in the NHS have seen a real terms 20% pay cut over the last 15 years since 2010 doctors and other staff have seen the same.

Basically the budget amount goes up, but the amount that money buys each year is getting less and less, which means cuts to services.

That's really depressing. Looks like we just can't aford it? market forces will prevail and we'll all just have to go to a private health care model. But, Ok, if that's the way it has to be then I want all my recent NHS contributions paid into the insurance plan I'll have to take out.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

That's really depressing. Looks like we just can't aford it? market forces will prevail and we'll all just have to go to a private health care model. But, Ok, if that's the way it has to be then I want all my recent NHS contributions paid into the insurance plan I'll have to take out.

Imagine if we had a state owned power company, that didn't have to worry about profits and bottom lines. They could provide other state owned services with effectively free electricity, the cost of which would be paid for by the profits and bonuses that currently get paid out every year to executives and share holders..... that alone would buy a lot of extra patient services.

Or how about not having private organizations providing services who again have to make a profit. I'm waiting for an MRI scan on my lower back and that is being done by an outsourced private health care provider, who can make a profit and afford to pay more to their executive teams and share holder because they charge more for services that the NHS cannot provide, because they don't have the money to increase capacity.... How many conservative party doners do you think have investments in private health care firms right now..... ?

Its not that we can't afford it, its that those in power are bending the system, not so much that they could be considered corrupt in the eyes of the law, but certainly enough to line theirs and their wealthy friends pockets.

 

[bugsymike]

I accept all the above but still maintain the NHS is having to care for a large proprtion of people who are not actually contributing in taxes, whether through being unemployed for what ever reason or the volumne of people coming into the Country and overwhelming the system.
What figures are there for the proprtion of NHS staff per head of working age population who are contributing taxes now , compared with fifty years ago.
Surely if a similar proprtion of people were paying into the system, then not just the NHS , but all the other services would not be running at a loss and all the local Councils would be doing all the things like emptying the bins, filling potholes, providing Council houses for local workers, even the street lights. As a child when a street light failed my mum would walk down to the local Council Depot and the same day it would be fixed. Our parks and gardens won Awards at the Chelsea Flower Show, these days it isn't even safe to walk through them at times.
When I bought my first house in the 1970s the Council Tax/Rates were roughly £94 per year and the £4 of that was the water supply and incidentally you could swim in the sea and drink the tap water safely, these days around here the respective price for Council Tax and the seperate water bill if not on a meter is roughly £2k for each, so what is all that money going on!
There was a fully manned Police Station in each town, as well as a good Cottage Hospital for most minor needs.
People who claim unlimited immigration is good for the Country could perhaps explain?

 

[SB1500]

I accept all the above but still maintain the NHS is having to care for a large proprtion of people who are not actually contributing in taxes, whether through being unemployed for what ever reason or the volumne of people coming into the Country and overwhelming the system.
What figures are there for the proprtion of NHS staff per head of working age population who are contributing taxes now , compared with fifty years ago.
Surely if a similar proprtion of people were paying into the system, then not just the NHS , but all the other services would not be running at a loss and all the local Councils would be doing all the things like emptying the bins, filling potholes, providing Council houses for local workers, even the street lights. As a child when a street light failed my mum would walk down to the local Council Depot and the same day it would be fixed. Our parks and gardens won Awards at the Chelsea Flower Show, these days it isn't even safe to walk through them at times.
When I bought my first house in the 1970s the Council Tax/Rates were roughly £94 per year and the £4 of that was the water supply and incidentally you could swim in the sea and drink the tap water safely, these days around here the respective price for Council Tax and the seperate water bill if not on a meter is roughly £2k for each, so what is all that money going on!
There was a fully manned Police Station in each town, as well as a good Cottage Hospital for most minor needs.
People who claim unlimited immigration is good for the Country could perhaps explain?

anything public sector (government run) is run **** tbh because incompetent middle management outsource everything and then the private firms take the **** and over charge for everything. In the case of the NHS they have people good at care / health trying to make business decisions and because they’re no good at business they just outsource at a high expense. The housing authorities in NI also contract out everything from repairs to preparing the houses to a few private contracting outfits as well. No doubt paying through the teeth and bumping up prices for everything.

Public sector / government run is synonymous with ‘we don’t need to make a profit we get handed our money from your taxes so we can waste it how we want and our user base has no choice and has to tolerate our ineffectiveness’ in my view.

At least with private they’re subject to competition… fall behind without innovation and slackers / ineffective businesses and crap decision makers have to face up to bankruptcy and losing their jobs / reputations if they mess it up badly enough. Don’t tell me the same ‘sink or swim’ exists with government run… otherwise Sadiq Khan would have been gone a long time ago, we wouldn’t have had the disastrous conservative government over their last few years in power… and we certainly wouldn’t have Starmer in - who seems committed to annoying people from all regions and political orientations and doesn’t feel like having to answer to anybody who has valid criticism. So I don’t think it’s as simple as ‘let the government control everything’ when the very point is how poorly run the NHS is…

I hope it sticks around but I honestly can’t see it lasting.

 

[porta]

I accept all the above but still maintain the NHS is having to care for a large proprtion of people who are not actually contributing in taxes, whether through being unemployed for what ever reason or the volumne of people coming into the Country and overwhelming the system.
What figures are there for the proprtion of NHS staff per head of working age population who are contributing taxes now , compared with fifty years ago.
Surely if a similar proprtion of people were paying into the system, then not just the NHS , but all the other services would not be running at a loss and all the local Councils would be doing all the things like emptying the bins, filling potholes, providing Council houses for local workers, even the street lights. As a child when a street light failed my mum would walk down to the local Council Depot and the same day it would be fixed. Our parks and gardens won Awards at the Chelsea Flower Show, these days it isn't even safe to walk through them at times.
When I bought my first house in the 1970s the Council Tax/Rates were roughly £94 per year and the £4 of that was the water supply and incidentally you could swim in the sea and drink the tap water safely, these days around here the respective price for Council Tax and the seperate water bill if not on a meter is roughly £2k for each, so what is all that money going on!
There was a fully manned Police Station in each town, as well as a good Cottage Hospital for most minor needs.
People who claim unlimited immigration is good for the Country could perhaps explain?

Every one of your points can be explained through defunding of those services and/or privatisation…wehn you and I were young all those were nationalised industries or services. I worked for an LA and the cuts were enormous, that and having to tender for work under the control contract of LAs meant that many services were gutted or lost out to private industry. This WASNT because they were cheaper but because LAs get an annual budget, the contracts had to be 3-5yr specific, the private industry would undercut for first year and then bump up for the remainder of the contracted years! What do you do with the staff that lost out? Laid off…that cycle goes on and on till you don’t get your pristine parks, your bins get emptied fortnightly, your streetlights stay out, assets get sold off…but you don’t see that in the media do you?