What's made you grumpy today?

[SB1500]

Funnily enough I had a very brief look under the bonnet of a sightly older version of one of these a while ago - I forget the model but it was one of the smaller ones. A good friend, who used to be a Toyota factory technical rep, has been trying to convert me to Toyota products for years so, when this one appeared at a local dealer I know I went along for a look see. One thing that "terrified" me was that the brake master cylinder looked like it was an integral part of the ABS unit? Anyway, the insurance was going to be so much more than my usual choice of car I didn't look into it any deeper - suspect repair costs might be "silly" though?

My Lexus is pretty 'surface rusty' under the bonnet, perhaps more so than any other car I've had. Far from ever being an issue... but it definitely was a bit of a shock to me given the stellar reputation for reliability. The Mazda 2 we have and Avensis were similar, but not as bad (yet). Though the three of them are the easiest cars I've ever worked on in terms of getting things off the way they're supposed to come off with minimal hassle.

Time will tell if the rust ends up worse than what my oldest car (the 05 Panda in 2015 ~ 10 years old), but that also just 'looked bad' and never really caused any issues.

It's a very comfortable, smooth hassle-free car for the most part but Toyota definitely make stupid design choices, it's rarely anything too major but they're there. Still, the Lexus doesn't capture me how my little Panda did. Big regrets getting rid of both of them really in hindsight. There are plenty of online communities for them and Japanese cars in general, but I've found none of them to come close to the Fiat Forum... perhaps if you're into dipping things into fake carbon fibre textures or bolting on plastic parts and applying a sun strip, but that's never appealed to me. Most of the Lexus' I see around my area are molested examples like that, and then the rest are the pensioners in the new crossover ones here and there.

I think no matter how exceptional, well specced and fancy cars are the magic of Fiat ownership is unmatched because of the owners (forums / clubs), the quirky designs that stick out like sore thumbs (in all of the best ways imaginable) and the rough around the edges handling (at times) that bring a smile to your face. All the engineering, marketing and Kaizen in the world can't beat it in my opinion

 

[vexorg]

Maybe you should go buy another car and leave fiat ownership to people who actually like them, may I suggest a Lexus

I don't own a fiat, and given the chance would jump at a lexus LFA. It's not quite punto convertible level, but....

(Punto is just an uno isnt it )

 

[PuntoHowTo]

I don't own a fiat,

I know yet, here you are....

While you think you are being funny here. you don't have a Lexus LFA, I can't see you ever would given the near £1M price tag, I could say I want a Ferrari La Ferrari which is probably as equally likely as you having an LFA.

What you don't seem to understand is
1. you are on a FIAT forum for FIAT owners and enthusiast, people come here to talk about FIATs and your constant hate for them is somewhat idiotic given where you are and the fact you keep coming back.

2. you cannot upset me here, the Punto Convertible is not my daily driver, I did a whole video about what a piece of utter crap it is. It is a project car I bought specifically for my YouTube channel.. were you not able to work that one out??? I think I have posted pretty extensively about other cars I own.. I have it because I am a FIAT enthusiast, and my YouTube channel actually helps people.

Anyway... You live in Scotland were cars rust worse, you are already complaining about rust on a fiat you don't own but apparently have enough investment in, to keep coming here. and you have added stainless steel to a mild steel panel which will result in galvanic rust of the panel (paint or not)

So I never refuted that fiat's rust, I merely pointed out that your addition of a stainless bolt will make things worse, and that is all that was needed to trigger you into throwing personal insults about.

You do like to talk out your arse at times...

explain please, how I talk out of my arse, or do you just not like being made to look like one?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Regarding rust perhaps someone with electrical background can shed some light.
As an apprentice before the advent of alternators most vehicles were Positive earth, it was not uncommon to see corrosion around the battery terminal area, so now with Negative earthing I wonder if there is a connection (no pun intended) re Anodes ,Cathodes and car body rust?

I seem to remember reading about why they changed from positive to negative earth and a lot of it was to do with rust. I remember both my 1930 Morris Minor and 1936 Morris 8 were positive earth, and 6 volt! Of course that Morris Minor looked nothing like what we today would recognize as a Minor, it looked much more like the Morris 8. Come to think of it, weren't the first "modern" Morris Minors positive earth?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

I had a neighbour who was in the Burma Star Association and worked as a prisoner on the Burma Railway and yet happy to run Japanese cars whilst other ex WW2 servicemen were extremely against them.

Aye Mike, After helping build the gun emplacements in the Forth estuary my dad spent the entire war in the far east - except for one leave in 1945, which I'm very glad he got or I wouldn't be here! He harboured a very deep hatred which was frightening to see when it, very occasionally, surfaced. I vaguely remember, as a very young boy (I would have been under 10 years old) being aware of my dad having a group of men round in the kitchen where they would drink and talk. Mum told me they were Burma Star and I was to keep out and not trouble them.

 

[porta]

Regarding rust perhaps someone with electrical background can shed some light.
As an apprentice before the advent of alternators most vehicles were Positive earth, it was not uncommon to see corrosion around the battery terminal area, so now with Negative earthing I wonder if there is a connection (no pun intended) re Anodes ,Cathodes and car body rust?

No, the same reaction occurs positive or negative…back wehn a lot were positive‘Earth’ the cars were built with thicker steel and separate chassis, but then, they’d still be on the road if they really did last longer

 

[vexorg]

While you think you are being funny here. you don't have a Lexus LFA, I can't see you ever would given the near £1M price tag,

I think I'll just give up on you when you seem incapable of coherent conversation, pointing out the moronic obvious with no value, just wastes time with no return.

 

[bugsymike]

Yes to some degree.

really with galvanic corrosion you don't even need the presence of electricity, if you have two dissimilar metals in electrical contact via an electrically conductive sollution, IE you have a stainless steel bolt and a mild steel body pannel, and that part of the car is covered in rain water that contains road salts and other contiminants, they the bolt and pannel don't even have to be touching, and the steel where ever water gets into touch actual metal, will corrode much quicker as a result of te galvanic reaction.

On big ships they install massive lumps of metal called galvanic anodes onto the hull, to focus the corrosion on the anode and save the metal. The metal will still rust a bit but nothing like the anode which will literally dissolve in the water.

The anode material is chosen based on the conditions. Ie most ships in the salty sea will use zinc or aluminum. In cleaner water areas like lakes and rivers you tend to use things like Magnesium,

Cars when made are Galvanic dipped, a kind of green coloured paint that contains zinc, but as per the chemistry the zinc in the paint is sacrificial and while it take the brunt of the corrosion over the steel it covers, given enough time and enough salt. the paint will eventually break down and let the water in, and is much worse with any little chip or ding in the paint that breaks the surface.

If you look at galvanic anodes used on ships, they are stuck over the paint. In the case of stainless steel, mild steel becomes the anode and will rust quicker.

That's why on modern cars aluminum parts can appear so covered in corrosion the alloy is a natural anode to the steel body.

Thanks, I was aware of the marine side having had various boats over the years and making sure the sacrificial anodes were correctly wired to the engine etc of the boat was critical and as you say any dissimilar metals had that reaction.
My thoughts are more towards the vehicle corrosion aspect and whether influenced by the change to Negative earth systems since around the mid 70s roughly.

 

[bugsymike]

I seem to remember reading about why they changed from positive to negative earth and a lot of it was to do with rust. I remember both my 1930 Morris Minor and 1936 Morris 8 were positive earth, and 6 volt! Of course that Morris Minor looked nothing like what we today would recognize as a Minor, it looked much more like the Morris 8. Come to think of it, weren't the first "modern" Morris Minors negative earth?

Not being quite as ancient as you (if you want to sing happy birthday I will be 71 in a couple of days) I never owned a 1930s Morris Minor,
I did have a 1955 Split Screen 803cc OHV version that I bought for £10 which was Positive Earth, the oldest vehicle I owned was the 1947 Karrier Bantam lorry which was Positive earth also.

 

[SB1500]

I think I'll just give up on you when you seem incapable of coherent conversation, pointing out the moronic obvious with no value, just wastes time with no return.

Don't let the trolls annoy you, I see you got the "yOu DoNt oWn a FiAt WhY aRe YoU hErE!" as well, and the old psychological analysis you didn't ask for. I've been there too, but the "Ignore" function is very good for dealing with this.

I always try to keep the discussion on topic, on the cars. Made the mistake of getting a little too political for a car forum a few years ago (bait for the trolls!) but have since learnt to stop that. I keep it on the cars, but because I don't own a Fiat they try to make me feel un-welcome. But it's a minor blemish in this otherwise #1 forum, worth putting up with for all of the excellent members who do add value to our community, knowledge about all things Fiat and all that.

We're allowed to have our own opinions on here. Most of us can disagree or discuss without having to insult or bring down the forum. But have a laugh, because you and I live rent free in the trolls heads! haha

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Thanks, I was aware of the marine side having had various boats over the years and making sure the sacrificial anodes were correctly wired to the engine etc of the boat was critical and as you say any dissimilar metals had that reaction.
My thoughts are more towards the vehicle corrosion aspect and whether influenced by the change to Negative earth systems since around the mid 70s roughly.

In a plating bath the anode is the positive and the cathode is the negative, material goes from the anode to the cathode. so really in a car with a negative body, the whole body of the car is a Cathode and so any material dissolved in a solution, such as metals in rain water would be deposited on the body rather than a positive anode which would be eroded.

A car driving in the rain with a layer of road salt on the body or in the rain water splashing off the road, soaking the whole car, is a bit like a cathode and anode dunked in a plating bath, so electro deposition will move towards the body rather than taking metal away.

So that I suppose is the electrical process that goes on separate to galvanic corrosion.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

I think I'll just give up on you when you seem incapable of coherent conversation, pointing out the moronic obvious with no value, just wastes time with no return.

Please do stop wasting your time.... the internet will thank you.

I always try to keep the discussion on topic, on the cars. Made the mistake of getting a little too political for a car forum a few years ago (bait for the trolls!) but have since learnt to stop that. I keep it on the cars, but because I don't own a Fiat they try to make me feel un-welcome. But it's a minor blemish in this otherwise #1 forum, worth putting up with for all of the excellent members who do add value to our community, knowledge about all things Fiat and all that.

I seem to recall you started singing the praises of Trump, attacked anyone who didn't agree with you and had was appeared to be a rather messy break down to the determent of the forum?

You too used to try to make me feel unwelcome at times when I didn't have a fiat.... Pot... meet kettle.



When you talk about "our community" well I am here helping people and replying to posts, you come here to rant about your views on the direction fiat is going while not actually owning one. Fiat are apparently the best car in the world, till it comes to putting your money where your mouth is.

We're allowed to have our own opinions on here. Most of us can disagree or discuss without having to insult or bring down the forum. But have a laugh, because you and I live rent free in the trolls heads! haha

you're the snowflake who blocked me incapable of having a discussion that doesn't agree with your beliefs, @vexorg is the person who started throwing insults about...
So I can only conclude this comment was meant for me who neither resorts to insults and is able to have measured discussion without having to block people who don't agree with me.....

what's funny is when anyone reads a reply of mine that highlights certain points, but you reply immediately that show you've not read that point or don't understand it, its you who looks the fool.
Its so fun living in your head rent free...


Oh dear all this because I pointed out a stainless steel bolt will cause a worsening of corrosion to the surrounding metal.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Some of your greatest hits and why I (and others who remember) don't like you as a person.

The biggest lie they're peddling to young women especially now is to put their careers ahead of their family aspirations. Big mistake. It's going to lead to a lot of lost chances to start a family and a lot of resentful people. And in other cases, children who miss both parents as they're out working

In my opinion, they should be trying to convince more young men to prioritise their family in their lives over career, not trying to totally brainwash all young people into the lie that a career is what you'll feel happy with looking back at your life.

and here is an example of your ability to have a debate.

Unfortunately, you're outright wrong here Andy. No debate.

proof I do indeed live in your head

Throughout the years I’ve had a few people message me about your shenanigans

Then there was the ridiculous rans about Capitalism.

Capitalism working well here.

There's a good example, it applies to cars as much as anything.

blah blah blah, random rant about pencils, follow the quote link if you want to read it all, my advice is you don't if you value you time

That's literally 100 words, I've written academic papers shorter than that.

This is why you disappeared off the forum because you showed your true colours and what a truely horrid person you are..

and for a while it was nice.

 

[porta]

The ‘ignore’ option is always a useful tool on this forum…I’ve used it, I guess others have towards me…it’s no skin off anyone’s nose unless they’re precious

Edit: I’m talking no one in particular

 

[portland_bill]

I think UK made cars started moving from positive to negative earth in the late fifties, but many did not make the change until the early seventies. The introduction of alternators ensured the change. I think there was a theory that you got a fatter spark at the plug with positive earth, so probably a good idea with early cars and their weak ignition and electrical systems. As we moved to negative earth, electrical systems got better, with less voltage drop, so we got adequate sparks. For much of my early time in the motor trade, we always had to be careful which we had, to avoid connecting things the wrong way, as even similar models could be either. Many people connected the ignition coil the wrong way, giving weak sparks, and the coil a short life. Early coils were marked IGN and SW, or similar, then later ones just + and -.

 

[vexorg]

I work (worked) with high voltage a lot, i can't think of a good reason why the earthing system would affect the spark quality, yes there are more complex differences between positive and negative impulses, but not related to the earthing system.

 

[bugsymike]

I think UK made cars started moving from positive to negative earth in the late fifties, but many did not make the change until the early seventies. The introduction of alternators ensured the change. I think there was a theory that you got a fatter spark at the plug with positive earth, so probably a good idea with early cars and their weak ignition and electrical systems. As we moved to negative earth, electrical systems got better, with less voltage drop, so we got adequate sparks. For much of my early time in the motor trade, we always had to be careful which we had, to avoid connecting things the wrong way, as even similar models could be either. Many people connected the ignition coil the wrong way, giving weak sparks, and the coil a short life. Early coils were marked IGN and SW, or similar, then later ones just + and -.

Or CB contact breaker and SW switch as well as the - and +, then of course ballast resistor coils etc. Vauxhalls seemed to be fond of them.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Regarding rust perhaps someone with electrical background can shed some light.
As an apprentice before the advent of alternators most vehicles were Positive earth, it was not uncommon to see corrosion around the battery terminal area, so now with Negative earthing I wonder if there is a connection (no pun intended) re Anodes ,Cathodes and car body rust?

You’ve had me thinking about this today and technically speaking if you mounted some zinc or aluminium blocks on the underside of a car somewhere along the inner sills, then drilled a hole, sealed it but ran a 12v + feed from the battery to the block and kept the block isolated from the car body, you’d have a sacrificial anode that any salt water or corrosion would attack first preventing deterioration and rust of the car body, or at least minimising it. The blocks would be cheap, the wiring would be stupidly easy, it’s a very obvious way to protect a car from corrosion that anyone could implement, would be a good experiment to try if you had a couple of brand new cars which was known to have no rust and you implemented it on one and not the other.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Or CB contact breaker and SW switch as well as the - and +, then of course ballast resistor coils etc. Vauxhalls seemed to be fond of them.

Aye, balast resistors. Leave the ignition turned on but with engine not running and they'd burn out after a short period of time. Used to be fun rescuing the courting couples who had been listening to their radio for a half hour or more - with the ignition switched on so the radio would work - and then finding the car wouldn't start when they needed to go home. I got extra "standby money" for working the breakdown truck in the evening and at weekends and rescued quite a few of rather red faced youngsters in this way.

 

[portland_bill]

I work (worked) with high voltage a lot, i can't think of a good reason why the earthing system would affect the spark quality, yes there are more complex differences between positive and negative impulses, but not related to the earthing system.

Don't focus on an 'earthing' system. Non automotive electrical systems have a full circuit, feed and return, and the earth is added as a safety measure. On a car, the 'earth' is the return, just saving half the wiring. The difference between positive and negative earth to the ignition system will be whether the spark jumps from the plug centre electrode to the earth, or from the earth to the centre. There was a definite reason why cars used positive earth, and why the change to negative earth occurred as electrical systems got stronger. This was discussed in technical class in 1972, specific to automotive applications. I still have the notes, but can't be arsed to plough through them. There's no need, as we just have to go with whatever the manufacturer decided. If you wish to argue the case, go back in time, not here.