What's made you grumpy today?

[SB1500]

I understand that it’s a real mess to try and figure out. That it’s difficult, and the reality is, whether it’s Boris, Corbyn, Swinson - or in an even madder world, Farage himself - nobody is going to single handedly “figure it out” just like that, in a way that everybody will be happy with. But every political decision and issue is the same.

The best thing they could have done is what they did, just ask the public. We all have access to so much information in this country, we’re all intelligent people so to speak. Look, we all had access to the same information as each other and the ability to deem it useful, influential or useless and terrible. More people than not, for differing reasons chose that regardless of how, they wanted out.

I hear what you’re saying. But to suggest something isn’t worth doing because of its difficulty sounds like giving up to me. Where would we be if that happened in the 1940s? Back then, we had the same situation. There were politicians leaning towards wanting to agree favourable terms with Hitler. In hindsight we know how glad we are that didn’t happen.

Still, no matter how bad Brexit may be in the short term, you need to understand the mess of a country you’d have if you decided to ignore the majority of people. You’d turn the UK into one huge disastrous Northern Ireland troubles zone.

What I said about democracy and “losers consent” is really the biggest underlying fundamental here. Start ignoring the population (for any reason) and you’re taking a slippery slope towards communism my friend. And we’re yet to see anything good come from that ideology on this planet.

 

[PuntoHowTo]

Start ignoring the population (for any reason) and you’re taking a slippery slope towards communism my friend. And we’re yet to see anything good come from that ideology on this planet.

It’s this statement in its self that shows whole heartedly shows that you don’t understand, not only what you are talking about in this instance but seemingly anything about politics. I’m sure you gave several older members of the forum a good laugh. *slow clap*

 

[dave]

they should never has invoked Article 50 until we had a selection of deal options to choose from it never had to be done instantly, then there would not have been the mad rush to meet dead lines then the frustration of not meeting them,
there are people on facebook now who voted tory posting up links to help the homeless at xmas the irony is fecking unbelievable.

 

[Schumi2001]

It absolutely frustrates me.

The NHS is in crisis, child poverty is higher than it has been in years, we have a massive issue with homelessness, lack of social housing, and a big problem with 'under employment' - ie. people working part time / zero hours or paid less than a living wage and therefore subsidising companies making over a billion in profit with working tax credits.

Yet the population has looked at this and said 'hey, this is great - let's have another 5 years of it'.

But... it just shows how out of touch Corbyn was with the voters of the UK.

A Blair-esque candidate would have crushed BJ.

 

[dave]

expecting the NHS to work to its full potential with a Tory government running it is like expecting your mechanic to do and engine change with a just a screwdriver and pair of mole grips

 

[dave]

But... it just shows how out of touch Corbyn was with the voters of the UK.

A Blair-esque candidate would have crushed BJ.

um JC Got more votes than any other labour ever. only reason Tories got more as it was combined traditional tory voters with the out out no matter who else will get killed with tory cuts never bothered to vote in a general before.
the billionaire own press would have run a smear campaign no matter who was leader and fool would have fell for it just the same.



If they had had new referendum on its own with boris deal or stay boris would have lost. and off the back of that tories would have lost the general next year too.

 

[Schumi2001]

The absolute numbers mean little - there are so many variables which impact this - a big one being the relative strength of the 3rd party, which is at a near all time low. 3.2 million fewer voted Lib Dem this year than in Clegg's heyday.

When you ask around, anecdotal evidence says Corbyn was unelectable.

Someone closer to centre, who put their flag firmly on one side or the other of the Brexit fence, would have performed significantly better.

However, FPTP is such a poor system - if you look at votes per seat, the Tories lag a long way behind Labour - they dominate in sparsely populated and affluent areas.

For FPTP to really work, you need to equalise constituency populations. Even that is imperfect, but it's better than what we have now where a small number of wealthy voters carry the same weight as a densely populated inner city.

 

[SB1500]

It’s this statement in its self that shows whole heartedly shows that you don’t understand, not only what you are talking about in this instance but seemingly anything about politics. I’m sure you gave several older members of the forum a good laugh. *slow clap*

I’m glad you enjoyed that one Andy - I knew you would! The likes from the others are a plus.

But you said I wasn’t clever or funny on the other post?! That’s okay, I forgive you! You must be busy as a grown up and all that I guess [emoji108][emoji851]

 

[andydiver]

The Andrew Marr show did a good analysis as to why Labour failed, interviewing John McDonnell.
He then interviewed northern Labour MP Lisa Nandy. She very eloquently and better put what went wrong. She quoted one of her constituents, saying that promising lots of money for stuff is great, but it likely has to come from borrowing, which is not great at all, and she lost that vote. Contrary to McDonnell who stood by the manifesto.
You can watch it yourselves. Found myself noting that open analysis and discussion like that was lacking in the media before the election, a shame, a bit late now.

As for the billionaire press, bull. At work we have all the red tops and they are full of rubbish. No one is that nieve to be so influenced, to say so drives me to dispair if the public are that daft...... and half of the papers are obviously Labour supporters anyway.
We deserve to relax for a while, the country has more certainty and stability than for quite some time, the better for everyone, the Scottish should enjoy it for a while before, maybe rightly, rocking the boat again.

 

[Schumi2001]

I don't know what papers you read, but only the Guardian and Mirror are left leaning. The rest tried to paint Corbyn as a terrorist sympathiser and racist, whilst pushing 'get Brexit done'.

Both sides promised to spunk money up the wall to buy votes, but the Labour plans were pulled apart as 'not costed', even though nobody knows how the Tories are going to pay for what they promised. (Well, they won't deliver, but they have 5 years to not deliver now!).

People are gullible and easily influenced, sadly - hence people whose jobs rely on free trade with EU voting to leave the EU.

 

[dave]

You must be busy as a grown up and all that I guess [emoji108][emoji851]

he is busy trying to do his job with out the tools in a cash starved NHS, AndyRKett an i never normally agree on anything so this hasn't split everyone its united some, he was one of the people that should have been listened to instead of the news papers

 

[dave]

He then interviewed northern Labour MP Lisa Nandy. She very eloquently and better put what went wrong. She quoted one of her constituents, saying that promising lots of money for stuff is great, but it likely has to come from borrowing, which is not great at all, and she lost that vote.

did you not read the manifestos? labours was fully costed, not a lot of borrowing needed corporation tax would have gone up that is not good for me as i will have to pay it next year as i am changing from sole trader to company ( but i still voted for it)
and no everyone wouldnt have left the uk because of it as it still would have been lower than nearly everywhere else


All governments spend money just when the Tories do it we have nothing to show for it. When labour do it we get a nhs, schools, homes, police.....

 

[andydiver]

did you not read the manifestos? .

Was quoting a Labour MP, not my own opinion.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Regardless of the political opinion one might hold I have found this whole Brexit/Devolution/etc experience absolutely depressing. There seems to be absolutely no middle road which might unite the country and bring us all back together. There are very large numbers of people who want out of Europe and similarly large numbers who wish we could stay in. Then there's our position up here in Scotland with similarly large numbers of people wanting to leave the union but also very large numbers of people who would like to remain. Whatever view you hold I can see big trouble coming down the road if the "English government" - as it's viewed to be by many up here - arrogantly (in many peoples perception) denies a referendum following the SNP landslide we've just witnessed. Whether we should leave the union is quite another question and I don't pretend to have an answer to that.

The opposite camps are so entrenched in their positions and passions are running so high I just can't see a way through this but, as someone who has lived in both countries and worked extensively throughout European countries in my younger days, I am deeply saddened by the whole sorry mess.

 

[SB1500]

he is busy trying to do his job with out the tools in a cash starved NHS, AndyRKett an i never normally agree on anything so this hasn't split everyone its united some, he was one of the people that should have been listened to instead of the news papers

It’s good that you’re both united in your apparent disagreement with me, but the fact remains I still like Fiat Panda’s and dislike boring German cars. That’s what I believe he had the issue with in the first place. He’s given up replying now so I assume he’s admitted defeat in his war against differing opinions. Success!

 

[SB1500]

Was quoting a Labour MP, not my own opinion.

Regarding labour, I found this quite good;


[ame]https://youtu.be/Vwn11ZcU4Tw[/ame]

 

[dave]

Regarding labour, I found this quite good;


https://youtu.be/Vwn11ZcU4Tw

and there lies the problem, you watch sky news that's one of the tools used to brainwash the public.

 

[SB1500]

and there lies the problem, you watch sky news that's one of the tools used to brainwash the public.

I mean, of course, if you want to get all hysterical and tin-foiled hat about it, you could say that.

But in reality; though Sky News Australia is very much right wing, combining it with our lefty media here in the UK actually offers two very value able (if not a little biased both way) perspectives on the same burning issues.

It’s fine to not agree, but claiming everyone who doesn’t agree is ‘brainwashed’ is again part of that problem of dividing the population by trying to claim the side that opposes yours are ‘idiots’ when really, they’re just oriented differently. And in this case, the majority ...

 

[PuntoHowTo]

That’s what I believe he had the issue with in the first place. He’s given up replying now so I assume he’s admitted defeat in his war against differing opinions. Success!

Nope, I just know not to argue with idiots as they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience, I just leave you to carry on arguing with everyone else on the forum.

Normal people educate themselves, learn about what interests them. Takes on information from multiple sources and then weighs up the facts before coming to an opinion.

You don’t appear to do this. And repeatedly saying you don’t like german cars is fine, Icouldn’t care less really, tried to offer you some alternative view but you’re not interested, just like you’re not interested in anyone else’s politics. To talk to you is therefore a waste of time for everyone.

If you’d bothered to read my last reply I stated that I would look forward to your “must have the last word reply” this is because of your need to always have the last word, because like most poorly educated people you believe having the last word somehow means you’ve won any argument.

As I see it there is literally nothing to discuss, you have your opinions which you’re entitled to no matter how idiotic or wrong they may be, and you’re not interested in learning or discussing things in any grown up way that might improve your knowledge, you literally started specifically picking on me and my choice of car, you’re only moments away from calling me a “poop face” the way you’ve been behaving, it would seem that all you want to do is start arguments, not just with me but all over the forum and I’m not interested.

Staying “I don’t like ‘X’, because I just don’t like it” is no different to what a toddler does.
In the case of politics (which I seem to remember they did politely ask not to discuss on the forum) you back a political party for one thing alone which is just idiotic, I can respect someone wanting something from a party, if you want to support brexit or whatever fine but you’ve clearly (as usual) not bothered to understand the consequences, how it will affect you or if that isn’t going to cause you a problem what other things that party might do that has an impact on you. This narrow minded politics has lead to some of the most horrific things in the past, and that’s not “my opinion” you can go and read about it in history books, assuming you can be bothered to educate yourself.


In summary you like your panda (is yay for you) you want brexit. You have no interest in anything anyone else has to say. You want to argue for the sake of it, most likely to validate your beliefs or to give yourself a sense of superiority. We’re all on board with it now. There’s little else to say.

I’d suggest to anyone else on here that they stop feeding the troll.

As you’ll have to have the last word, and your need to have the last word validates your belief that you have won something, accept this as you’ve won something.

 

[SB1500]

Nope, I just know not to argue with idiots as they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience, I just leave you to carry on arguing with everyone else on the forum.

Normal people educate themselves, learn about what interests them. Takes on information from multiple sources and then weighs up the facts before coming to an opinion.

You don’t appear to do this. And repeatedly saying you don’t like german cars is fine, Icouldn’t care less really, tried to offer you some alternative view but you’re not interested, just like you’re not interested in anyone else’s politics. To talk to you is therefore a waste of time for everyone.

If you’d bothered to read my last reply I stated that I would look forward to your “must have the last word reply” this is because of your need to always have the last word, because like most poorly educated people you believe having the last word somehow means you’ve won any argument.

As I see it there is literally nothing to discuss, you have your opinions which you’re entitled to no matter how idiotic or wrong they may be, and you’re not interested in learning or discussing things in any grown up way that might improve your knowledge, you literally started specifically picking on me and my choice of car, you’re only moments away from calling me a “poop face” the way you’ve been behaving, it would seem that all you want to do is start arguments, not just with me but all over the forum and I’m not interested.

Staying “I don’t like ‘X’, because I just don’t like it” is no different to what a toddler does.
In the case of politics (which I seem to remember they did politely ask not to discuss on the forum) you back a political party for one thing alone which is just idiotic, I can respect someone wanting something from a party, if you want to support brexit or whatever fine but you’ve clearly (as usual) not bothered to understand the consequences, how it will affect you or if that isn’t going to cause you a problem what other things that party might do that has an impact on you. This narrow minded politics has lead to some of the most horrific things in the past, and that’s not “my opinion” you can go and read about it in history books, assuming you can be bothered to educate yourself.


In summary you like your panda (is yay for you) you want brexit. You have no interest in anything anyone else has to say. You want to argue for the sake of it, most likely to validate your beliefs or to give yourself a sense of superiority. We’re all on board with it now. There’s little else to say.

I’d suggest to anyone else on here that they stop feeding the troll.

As you’ll have to have the last word, and your need to have the last word validates your belief that you have won something, accept this as you’ve won something.

Andy, oh, Andy, you're back again! Great. You can't come this far in the 'argument' and then give up citing "I don't argue with idiots", I would suggest that if I'm the idiot, then our ongoing dialogue must mean you do in fact, argue with idiots...


If you don't care what I think about German cars, then why do you continuously get personally insulted every time I post about it? It's not up to you to decide who posts what on this forum. Therefore if you 'don't care', ignore it - that's a pro tip!

I've stated many times, I have nothing better to do and I find it quite entertaining. Hence I'll keep replying, it's free!


Picking on you? Good one. Seems you quote my posts with a disagreeable remark more than I ever do to yours. See, I respect your opinions without having to get personal or try to 'convince you' otherwise. The fact you see my differing opinions as 'idiotic' and 'wrong' when they're subjective opinions about designed objects like cars speaks for itself, frankly.


Unlike you, I don't get personal or conduct lengthy physcological assessments, arriving at conclusions like "you're poorly educated" having only interacted with you in a very limited manner on an internet forum... Bit of advice for your arguing game, when you get personal and insult-y, your argument goes out the window. I'm very adept at dealing with your level of 'arguing'

I've made it pretty clear I don't like them because in my opinion they're boring, bland, and at least in my area, owned by t*ssers - though the last one isn't a very concrete one obviously lol. That's as good as reason I need. Not your approval.


And on politics, "my view", "how it will affect me" etc. is all up in the sky and if you pretend yours is any more true or accurate than mines simply because it's different and you don't agree.. again, speaks for itself. Learn to understand and respect other viewpoints. Nobody, not even yourself can offer anything back than accusing people of being 'racist' and 'bigoted' simply for not agreeing with your views. Another weak strategy... Accusing me of something you do yourself #hypocrite


You'll probably have a very hard time in life if you can't learn to respect other opinions. You can keep disagreeing with me and then when you get your argument handed back to you, continue to pretend you're on some kind of high ground - you're not - but I'll keep my posts very to the point...

- I love the Panda
- Dislike German cars

There's nothing to win.


As for your little ending, speak for yourself. And lead by example, don't like my opinions? Don't quote them if you can't hack the response. You accuse me of being a troll but I know first hand there's a number of members on here who find your disagreeableness brands you somewhat of a 'troll'... We refer to it as "'Ketting the point"

So, please try again or take your own advice and quit with the replies