Design proposal (designers free hand) for cinq…
What Shocked You Today
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What Shocked You Today
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I thought Giugiaro was originally proposing that basic design for the Seicento?
Wehn the cinq was launched, but not in full production, Fiat sent a preproduction to all the design houses to ‘experiment’ with…there were the usual weird ones, including a tan dam seating arrangement with a bike mounted where the f&r passenger would be…and a design that would turn into the matiz..I have a picture somewhere that comes from the ‘Fiat World’ magazine of the time, but we used to get postcard/flyer type promo exerts for the showroom
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You use the extra power to lug all the extra weight around. I few years back I bought a very cheap range rover leather interior (to sell on for a profit) the drivers seat weighed nearly as much as me with all the motors and electronic gubbins you need those extra Hp.
Really though cars being a pain in the arse to work on isn’t a new thing, take the original mini or the fiat 500 these “small cars were just as bad, it’s just we scaled them up. There are a lot of plus sides to new cars as well, no chokes, not balancing carbs, no cork oil seals leaking everywhere within three seconds of installation.
Whiny diffs on rwd salons. Electrics that while not warning you the bulb was gone didn’t matter because the electrics just flat out didn’t work despite everything having spade connectors that would carry 200amps (they still had terrible connections) 5 years old or 100,000 miles and it was off to the scrap yard.
I can go on
Cylinder heads that crack, water pumps that barely moved any coolant causing cars to over heat all the time, rust in coolant systems causing radiators to clog all the time.
Servo assisted brakes that wouldn’t servo assist. Radios with the clunky button that would ping the needle across the gauge to pick up your mw channel.
Old cars were absolutely terrible. Fun… but terrible.
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Go and get one then, they’re probably in budget and it’s not like anyone else is buying them.
Lol!
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I've already had 1, lol!
I had a new i10 as a hire car recently, it used to be the hyundai version of the matiz, and wow, it has all the toys in there that you'd expect to find in a more top of the range car.
About there or there abouts. Double the time as you get to OAP status
It really has got very silly IMHO with modern cars and it is going to get worse. When the EU edict for fully intergrated encrypted CAN-Bus then much of what the DIY car mechanic can do will be beyond reach. Sure you will be able to do some spannering but the computer will so "NO" and you will have to go to a garage. I can see even simple things like ABS wheel sensors and other sensors being needed to be programmed into the car. Probably a mixture of calibration (like coding batteries and fuel injectors) but also a parts theft deterant.
A good new non electric car could be got for £15K or less. Now we are talking roughly twice that at £30K. That is a huge increase in motoring cost almost overnight.
As we get older, retired and no longer working I can see more people ditching their cars in favour of motability scooters (with shopping trailer
or ), using home shopping (ASDA, Tesco, Sainsburys, Morrisons, etc.), taxis and occasionally hire cars.Future costs: Average cheap electric car @ £30k, Road Tax @ £300, Insurance @ £300, Servicing/MOT @ £300, incidentals @ £100. Over 8 years this works out at:
Average Yearly Cost: (30k - £3k trade-in)/8 + £300 + £300 +£300 + £100 = £4,375 per year (excluding inflation)
If you have a good old classic car / old school tech then one has to hang onto it but even that is proving to be more difficult these days. We could end up like Japan. Japan has (well did have) a good export trade in used cars because their MOTs would fail cars just a few years old to get them off the road and drive new sales!
Are we car fanatics doomed especially after working life and in retirement?
I'm towards the Bugsy side of the middle position. I suppose we do need the emissions stuff and that means electronics to control it. Electronic ignition and control of fueling certainly makes for a nice drive and "saves the planet" as long as it works as intended. ABS brakes have, on the whole, also been a good thing as have air bags and seat belts. Most of the rest I could do without. Autonomous braking. Collision avoidance. Hill hold. lane departure. The iniquitous, and in my opinion, dangerously lethal introduction of touch screens to control stuff like the radio and air con and -----. I could go on and on but I'm sure you've got my drift by now.
On the subject of excessively powerful engines. I think a compulsory psychological assessment followed by a special series of lessons and separate driving test with an endorsement then on your license should be compulsory before you can get into anything with more than a certain performance envelope. It shouldn't be linked only to engine power as that would not take into account vehicle weight or chassis setup but to the overall performance of the vehicle and thus it's inherent latent potential to allow an "idiot" to get into serious trouble with it. I'm living in cloud cuckoo land though - Never going to happen.
On the subject of excessively powerful engines. I think a compulsory psychological assessment followed by a special series of lessons and separate driving test with an endorsement then on your license should be compulsory before you can get into anything with more than a certain performance envelope. It shouldn't be linked only to engine power as that would not take into account vehicle weight or chassis setup but to the overall performance of the vehicle and thus it's inherent latent potential to allow an "idiot" to get into serious trouble with it. I'm living in cloud cuckoo land though - Never going to happen.
I had read that japan's issue was that all cars must meet the same modern standards, hence unfeasible for some older cars to pass the MOT.
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They were talking about this some 20+ years ago when I took my test, back then it was that people would be limited to cars no more than 1500cc (back when 1500cc was a cut off for higher or lower rate car tax, pre 2001 emissions based taxing)
It never came to anything, I don't think it ever will. You have to consider that there is someone in government making a measured decision that the costs of policing and enacting any such restriction would far outweigh the benefits. Over those probably 25 years cars have gotten infinitely more safe and road injuries and fatalities have dropped nearly year on year.
Insurance companies mop up the costs of any damage done to people or property where no one gets killed, so there is no real incentive for government to legislate on this subject.
In the past they did actually intact a restriction on motorbikes because people where killing themselves left right and center, and you can't really make a motorbike anymore safe than it already is where the only factor in if someone is going to get killed or not is the rider themselves. (bikers I know there are car drivers that cause accidents with bikes, but its the biker who gets killed and experience in avoiding a lot of the idiots on the road also has a big impact on if a biker gets squashed or not and a 17 year old on a 140hp super bike is never a good combination)
If you watch the police programs on TV these days 90% of the driving issues seem to be uninsured, untaxed, unroadworthy vehicles and as a result of lack of responsibility the driver, drives like an idiot, and more often than not it seems they fail a drugs wipe test.
There are plenty of idiots about on the road but and idiot doesn't need a 400hp car to cause absolute carnage.
Someone on here recently said they drove like everyone else was actively trying to have an accident with them. My brother in law, a retired airline pilot, said the exact same thing to me many years ago and I've never forgotten it. One very noticeable result of this is that I never take off from the traffic lights without checking cross traffic has actually stopped by looking both ways before lifting the clutch. Twice it's saved me from what could have been a very big accident with a red light runner.
The Panda Nut
Nutty about Pandas Infected by Panda virus and OPD
mmmm upto a point.
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This point or the points on the claw that put it in the machine?
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The Panda Nut
Nutty about Pandas Infected by Panda virus and OPD
Oh deers.... bye bye!
I've mentioned elsewhere that my younger boy's wife's Jazz has been declared "beyond economical repair" by her insurer after it had it's doors kicked in by a drunk. Serious thought was being given to buying it back and getting parts from a scrappie to resurrect it, but the buyback figure made a nonsense of that idea. So, today she dragged me off to look at a 2013 Mazda 2. It was "sensibly" priced but by no means "cheap" and the autotrader pictures looked very promising.
On arrival the car, in dark metallic grey, looked very good from a distance but closer up both front wheels were suffering badly from "kerb rash" The paintwork/bodywork was averageish with no dings or dents but some stone chips and some very minor scratches and blemishes which spoilt the overall presentation. Anyway I got her to sit in it and adjust the seat/wheel/etc to suit her and she easily achieved a comfortable driving position. She said she liked the interior and the fact it has an Infotainment screen - which her old Jazz didn't have. As we were doing this I noticed a strange smell in the car and, yes, it's been a "Doggy" car. Oh dear, I know how difficult that's going to be to get rid off! Anyway then we opened the boot to see how much storage space there is and whether it had the optional spacesaver - which it didn't - and were greeted by lots and lots of doggy hair all over the place.
I think we'd decided this wasn't going to be "the one" by then but I wanted to hear the engine running - Although this car is based on Fiesta underpinnings the power plant is pure Mazda. Normally aspirated, twin cam VVT with chain drive, and port injection (hurrah) has been an engine that's been round the block a few times and is considered pretty bullet proof - I wasn't disappointed, what a lovely, smooth running and quiet power unit. But hang on, pretty much all the exposed body seems, especially around the O/S engine mount, are starting to rust. Looking further there's rust starting in many places. Looked under the front, yes it's a "Panda type" steel sump, not as rusty as Becky's was before she got a new one, but it's trying hard! Then a look under the back and the spring pans are trying to copy our Panda ones too!
Oh dear, time to walk away from this one I think. It only had mid 40 thousands of miles on the clock and looked superficially very tidy - from about 15 yards away. She's got another one lined up for tomorrow, a white one this time, with similar miles on it but a year younger and £500 more in price. It'll be very interesting to see if it's body is rusting in a similar way or whether the one we looked at today was just a badly maintained one.
Thinking more about the one we saw today and find myself wondering if it's belonged to a farmer/farmer's family. It had a lot of muddy deposits on the suspension and even on the engine. If he/she were a shepherd that might explain the dog hairs and wiffy interior too?
Anyway, why is this in the "shocking" thread? well, I'm shocked that a dealer would offer a car for sale in this condition and expect anyone to buy it!
On arrival the car, in dark metallic grey, looked very good from a distance but closer up both front wheels were suffering badly from "kerb rash" The paintwork/bodywork was averageish with no dings or dents but some stone chips and some very minor scratches and blemishes which spoilt the overall presentation. Anyway I got her to sit in it and adjust the seat/wheel/etc to suit her and she easily achieved a comfortable driving position. She said she liked the interior and the fact it has an Infotainment screen - which her old Jazz didn't have. As we were doing this I noticed a strange smell in the car and, yes, it's been a "Doggy" car. Oh dear, I know how difficult that's going to be to get rid off! Anyway then we opened the boot to see how much storage space there is and whether it had the optional spacesaver - which it didn't - and were greeted by lots and lots of doggy hair all over the place.
I think we'd decided this wasn't going to be "the one" by then but I wanted to hear the engine running - Although this car is based on Fiesta underpinnings the power plant is pure Mazda. Normally aspirated, twin cam VVT with chain drive, and port injection (hurrah) has been an engine that's been round the block a few times and is considered pretty bullet proof - I wasn't disappointed, what a lovely, smooth running and quiet power unit. But hang on, pretty much all the exposed body seems, especially around the O/S engine mount, are starting to rust. Looking further there's rust starting in many places. Looked under the front, yes it's a "Panda type" steel sump, not as rusty as Becky's was before she got a new one, but it's trying hard! Then a look under the back and the spring pans are trying to copy our Panda ones too!
Oh dear, time to walk away from this one I think. It only had mid 40 thousands of miles on the clock and looked superficially very tidy - from about 15 yards away. She's got another one lined up for tomorrow, a white one this time, with similar miles on it but a year younger and £500 more in price. It'll be very interesting to see if it's body is rusting in a similar way or whether the one we looked at today was just a badly maintained one.
Thinking more about the one we saw today and find myself wondering if it's belonged to a farmer/farmer's family. It had a lot of muddy deposits on the suspension and even on the engine. If he/she were a shepherd that might explain the dog hairs and wiffy interior too?
Anyway, why is this in the "shocking" thread? well, I'm shocked that a dealer would offer a car for sale in this condition and expect anyone to buy it!
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I think @StevenRB45 is the resident Mazda expert, knows a lot about these Might be worth speaking to him about any common rust problems or issues? I’ve tagged him so I'm sure he’ll appear with some recommendations. Circa 2008 when I was looking for my Punto mk2b I specifically wanted the 1.3 multijet in dynamic spec with aircon and there were not many about.
this lead on one occasion on a drive down to London to look at one, massive dealership in an industrial unit in London, the dealer could not be less interested in my presence Pointed at the car and walked off leaving me to look round it. These were 3 year old cars at the time, and I had been assured on the phone this car was mint before driving 100 miles down to London, turns out the dealer was the typical lying type the car was a wreck for only 3 years old. The parcel shelf was propped in place but actually broken in two. There were holes in the carpets, marks all over the dash. the aircon didn’t work, the seats were filthy the body work looked ok from 50 yards but up close it had, had many touch ups and dodgy bits resprayed.
and he had the audacity to tell me this car was mint. Didn’t even talk to him or try to find out any more info, just walked out.
the car I ended up buying my silver late (December) 2004 mk2b was 3years 6 months old, and absolutely mint when I got it with 43k on the clock Well looked after not a mark anywhere so I dread to think who had owned the London car or what they had done to get it to that state.
Yes Andy, Of course I've seen some of Steven's posts. I should have thought of asking his opinions. Thanks for getting his attention for me.
Hmm.. mechanically they are great (within reason), but body and cosmetics wise they are not.
Very much built to a price and the point at which the axe fell is paint and rust proofing.
Wouldn't expect a 2013 to be a basket case and muddy underside suggests it had more of a coating of mud and crap than most but they are bit water soluble.
In the 3 there is a distinct difference between northern and southern cars...the general advice being if it's lived in Scotland, northern England or on the coast have a very good look indeed. Don't expect the 2 to be any different.
At the age you're looking at finding a garaged one or one from down south would be the preference unless you're happy with getting maybe 2 or 3 years out of it before rust starts appearing on the MOT.
This would be the underside of my 3 after 9 years and 80k...I'll be honest I did literally nothing to look after the underside of it..but most people don't so about standard for a Mazda that's seen snow and salt a lot.
Similar to the swift, well put together..but some low quality materials used and once they get to old age it starts to bite.
