What Shocked You Today

[portland_bill]

Reality is that people want SUVs.
Electric cars also suit SUVs better, as the larger vehicle accomodates the battery more easily. Although range is less with the larger lump to haul around.
With the battery sandwiched between floor panels, the inner floor has to move upwards. Many electric saloon cars have pitiful legroom in the back, as the floor has come upwards, but the seat hasn't. Not suitable for adults for more longer journeys. An SUV allows the seat to move upwards, retaining decent legroom, although some have failed in this respect, really just lifting a saloon, and raising the roof, without lifting the rear seat.
Last week, out in a Tesla Model3, not comfortable in the back.
Yesterday, a Skoda Enyaq, plenty of space. But pitiful range. After the training, away from the driver's home, he was a little worried about range, as he'd left his wallet at home, so had no means to charge it up. That could be a problem with a fuel car, but its range would be greater. This guy started with a full battery. He's had this Enyaq (full electric) for two years, and will not haev another electric car. When this one is replaced, he's going back to liquid fuel. Most of his business journeys are to/from an airport. A fully charged battery will get him to the airport, and just over half-way home, so he has to stop and charge on the return journey.

 

[StevenRB45]

Reality is that people want SUVs.
Electric cars also suit SUVs better, as the larger vehicle accomodates the battery more easily. Although range is less with the larger lump to haul around.
With the battery sandwiched between floor panels, the inner floor has to move upwards. Many electric saloon cars have pitiful legroom in the back, as the floor has come upwards, but the seat hasn't. Not suitable for adults for more longer journeys. An SUV allows the seat to move upwards, retaining decent legroom, although some have failed in this respect, really just lifting a saloon, and raising the roof, without lifting the rear seat.
Last week, out in a Tesla Model3, not comfortable in the back.
Yesterday, a Skoda Enyaq, plenty of space. But pitiful range. After the training, away from the driver's home, he was a little worried about range, as he'd left his wallet at home, so had no means to charge it up. That could be a problem with a fuel car, but its range would be greater. This guy started with a full battery. He's had this Enyaq (full electric) for two years, and will not haev another electric car. When this one is replaced, he's going back to liquid fuel. Most of his business journeys are to/from an airport. A fully charged battery will get him to the airport, and just over half-way home, so he has to stop and charge on the return journey.

If you look at future design directions, it's likely the SUV electric car will be written off as a dead end.

It's more likely to head toward the slightly weird raised hatchback. They can bang on about low CD all they want if it's got a frontal area like the the Albert hall then the range at speed will be crap...and it'll need a massive battery so it'll need to be tall and square to fit people in sitting on top of it. It was the easiest way to do it so they did it that way.

Even if you look at the difference between an Ioniq 5 and 6...23 miles gained by being more aero using exactly the same drive train. The Ioniq 5 is slinky compared to the monstrous devices some manufacturers produce.

It's impossible to get a good range on an SUV without a huge battery, huge batteries are expensive, materials are currently in high demand. So you're pricing yourself out of the market...and limiting the number of cars you can build and ensuring materials shortages hit you hard by building them.

Then there's the other angle...huge batteries need huge chargers to charge in a decent time... electric has gone up.

I'd expect to see more and more crossover crossovers.... which will basically be like our C3...i.e. it's a hatchback with long travel suspension, chunky tyres and black cladding.

If you're a bit smarter with battery sizing the occupants don't need to sit on top of a massive battery...you can put it in places traditionally used for drive train and they can sit lower, giving less frontal area and height.

 

[AndyRKett]

If you look at future design directions, it's likely the SUV electric car will be written off as a dead end.

It's more likely to head toward the slightly weird raised hatchback. They can bang on about low CD all they want if it's got a frontal area like the the Albert hall then the range at speed will be crap...and it'll need a massive battery so it'll need to be tall and square to fit people in sitting on top of it. It was the easiest way to do it so they did it that way.

Even if you look at the difference between an Ioniq 5 and 6...23 miles gained by being more aero using exactly the same drive train. The Ioniq 5 is slinky compared to the monstrous devices some manufacturers produce.

It's impossible to get a good range on an SUV without a huge battery, huge batteries are expensive, materials are currently in high demand. So you're pricing yourself out of the market...and limiting the number of cars you can build and ensuring materials shortages hit you hard by building them.

Then there's the other angle...huge batteries need huge chargers to charge in a decent time... electric has gone up.

I'd expect to see more and more crossover crossovers.... which will basically be like our C3...i.e. it's a hatchback with long travel suspension, chunky tyres and black cladding.

If you're a bit smarter with battery sizing the occupants don't need to sit on top of a massive battery...you can put it in places traditionally used for drive train and they can sit lower, giving less frontal area and height.

People are a obcessed with having an SUV, but to be honest how many of them are really just cars designed in such a way to make them look stocky and bulky and give the appearance of an SUV with no discernible difference in dimensions from a regular car.

Because of your post I did a little digging. So my golf is seen as a car, and the replacement for this was the T-Roc cabriolet which is supposedly an SUV.

Golf. T-roc
147cm 152cm height. 5cm difference
179cm 182cm width (without wing mirrors) 3cm difference
434cm 427cm length 7cm difference


so the golf is slightly longer, but the T-roc is slightly taller and only a smidge wider. Park the golf on a speed bump and there wouldn’t be a difference, the weight in both is about the same. yet people will see the T-roc as an SUV but other than the physical outward appearance, the cars are largely exactly the same. Transmission, engines seats boot the layouts are more or less identical.

I’d Argue that the T-Roc is no more an SUV than the Golf is, but because of that outward stocky appearance, people will associate it as an SUV. There isn’t anymore head room or leg room, the boot in the T-roc is slightly bigger but I think the T-roc didn’t get a spare wheel where I have a spare in the golf and tool kit. There are also some quite large pocket behind removable panels in the boot of mine which I don’t think The T-roc has either.



I suspect if you did similar comparisons with other supposed SUV’s versus their standard hatch back alternative, you’d find several that were like this. I have said to my wife that width and length her mini countryman is no bigger than my golf, it is a lot taller which gives some head height and leg room as you sit more upright but it doesn’t equate to much extra usable boot space. SUVs are not “big” cars.

Going back to Ferrari though. They always said they would NEVER make an SUV. Lotus have made one at a time no one is even thinking about lotus, they used to make small fun cheap Sports cars, no one associates them with SUVs and they don’t have a customer base which is asking for one, its a very weird decision to be making an SUV for lotus right now. Ferrari have clearly decided there is too much money to be made, but in a world transitioning to electric and away from petrol, to make a V12 195mph £400,000 SUV is clearly aimed at the ultra wealthy in places like Dubai and not Europe The price is also insane given the luxury you get in the Roils Royce Cullinan for similar money. Not that any of us here are buying any of them its just sad to see these once proud and focused manufacturers giving In a slapping an SUV label on a substandard product to flog it to those without any common sense, But I’m sure if we could we’d probably all do the same.

 

[StevenRB45]

People are a obcessed with having an SUV, but to be honest how many of them are really just cars designed in such a way to make them look stocky and bulky and give the appearance of an SUV with no discernible difference in dimensions from a regular car.

Because of your post I did a little digging. So my golf is seen as a car, and the replacement for this was the T-Roc cabriolet which is supposedly an SUV.

Golf. T-roc
147cm 152cm height. 5cm difference
179cm 182cm width (without wing mirrors) 3cm difference
434cm 427cm length 7cm difference


so the golf is slightly longer, but the T-roc is slightly taller and only a smidge wider. Park the golf on a speed bump and there wouldn’t be a difference, the weight in both is about the same. yet people will see the T-roc as an SUV but other than the physical outward appearance, the cars are largely exactly the same. Transmission, engines seats boot the layouts are more or less identical.

I’d Argue that the T-Roc is no more an SUV than the Golf is, but because of that outward stocky appearance, people will associate it as an SUV. There isn’t anymore head room or leg room, the boot in the T-roc is slightly bigger but I think the T-roc didn’t get a spare wheel where I have a spare in the golf and tool kit. There are also some quite large pocket behind removable panels in the boot of mine which I don’t think The T-roc has either.



I suspect if you did similar comparisons with other supposed SUV’s versus their standard hatch back alternative, you’d find several that were like this. I have said to my wife that width and length her mini countryman is no bigger than my golf, it is a lot taller which gives some head height and leg room as you sit more upright but it doesn’t equate to much extra usable boot space. SUVs are not “big” cars.

Going back to Ferrari though. They always said they would NEVER make an SUV. Lotus have made one at a time no one is even thinking about lotus, they used to make small fun cheap Sports cars, no one associates them with SUVs and they don’t have a customer base which is asking for one, its a very weird decision to be making an SUV for lotus right now. Ferrari have clearly decided there is too much money to be made, but in a world transitioning to electric and away from petrol, to make a V12 195mph £400,000 SUV is clearly aimed at the ultra wealthy in places like Dubai and not Europe The price is also insane given the luxury you get in the Roils Royce Cullinan for similar money. Not that any of us here are buying any of them its just sad to see these once proud and focused manufacturers giving In a slapping an SUV label on a substandard product to flog it to those without any common sense, But I’m sure if we could we’d probably all do the same.

I find the T-Roc pretty amusing to be fair...in that it's an SUV with less ride height than our C3 158mm to 162mm...but our roof line is level with the Golf if not your hip point.

So it's very much a hatchback drawn with a set square, although a fiesta would be in the 140mm-150mm range depending on trim so we're probably an outlier when it comes to supermini ride height.

I've said it before in terms of everyday cars...SUV look has advantages. After years of body colour everything, all corners in black plastic is much less stressful when leaving in a tight car park..or when a child is kicking the crap out of your sills getting in and out. Easier to drop a child into a seat without bending etc...also fat tyres and long travel suspension are good for what passes as roads now.

So SUVs are getting closer to hatchbacks... hatchbacks are getting closer to SUVs...they'll likely meet in the middle.

But in terms of Ferrari and Roller SUV's they are just designed to be vulgar...the whole point is to make a huge statement of "I've got a load of money...".

 

[AndyRKett]

So SUVs are getting closer to hatchbacks... hatchbacks are getting closer to SUVs...they'll likely meet in the middle.

This made me think to "hatch backs" of the pasts that where popular, the massive Mondeos and Vectra's The Passat hatch, Saab 900. The older Caviler and sierra all from a time everyone wanted big hatch back cars. Give it another 20 years I am sure that the SUV craze will have mutated into something else. some other type or style/shape of car.

 

[portland_bill]

If an SUV is a 'sports utility vehicle', does that make my Doblo a 'UV'? There's certainly nothing sporty about its performance. The 1.4 16v engine is rated at 95hp, and it is adequate, but the 60hp Panda is distinctly sporty in comparison. I think a lot of those 95 horses are lame.

 

[StevenRB45]

If an SUV is a 'sports utility vehicle', does that make my Doblo a 'UV'? There's certainly nothing sporty about its performance. The 1.4 16v engine is rated at 95hp, and it is adequate, but the 60hp Panda is distinctly sporty in comparison. I think a lot of those 95 horses are lame.

I'd say the biggest money spinner of the previous 10 years was rebranding MPVs as SUVs.

Remove seats, and boot space...add a little black cladding and ride height...increase wheel size. Abracadabra most modern SUVs...

 

[vexorg]

Nissan claim credit for that market saying the juke was the first compact SUV, and they are quite small compared to a proper SUV.

We've had a people carrier and a few suv type cars, and my wife prefers the higher driving position to a normal car. According to the sales people that's quite a common view.
(lower to the ground is my preference, but I'm just old)

 

[StevenRB45]

Nissan claim credit for that market saying the juke was the first compact SUV, and they are quite small compared to a proper SUV.

We've had a people carrier and a few suv type cars, and my wife prefers the higher driving position to a normal car. According to the sales people that's quite a common view.
(lower to the ground is my preference, but I'm just old)

That's because Nissan can't remember the Rover Streetwise or indeed the polo dune..or the C3 xtr.

I used to have seat in my Mazda set on the floor and it was a low car much lower than the C3 even at standard ride height it would occasionally catch on car park ramps etc. It was great for fun driving, but dropping into the bucket seat was not the most graceful procedure, basically involved falling into the car. I can see why older people would not like it.

Also in the era of the eyescorcher head lamp..being low is terrible in winter, constantly blind from LED suv headlamps at eye level. Also at junctions you can't see over the bonnet of say a Qashqai next to you.

I've noticed a significant difference in the higher car, in both being able to see over SUV bonnets and not getting blinded as much to point I've set the seat higher to take further advantage given headroom is good.

 

[AndyRKett]

That's because Nissan can't remember the Rover Streetwise or indeed the polo dune..or the C3 xtr.

There were plenty more even before these
The RAV4 came out in 1994
The X-90 in 1995
The freelander in 97
These were all “compact suv” by definition as SUV was an American title given to all 4x4/off-road vehicles dating back decades. Anything small was a compact suv, which included things like the Ford explorer, though we never considered those cars compact

 

[StevenRB45]

There were plenty more even before these
The RAV4 came out in 1994
The X-90 in 1995
The freelander in 97
These were all “compact suv” by definition as SUV was an American title given to all 4x4/off-road vehicles dating back decades. Anything small was a compact suv, which included things like the Ford explorer, though we never considered those cars compact

I would say those at least paid lip service to being off road vehicles...

If we go back in time...we find the Matra Rancho..as the forerunner of the stuff we have now.

The Qashqai and Juke were the first big selling off roaders that were not I suppose. The others had the concept first but were laughed at (correctly).

 

[vexorg]

I'd have put rav4 and freelander as off-road 4x4, and X-90 was in a world of it's own.

 

[The Panda Nut]

If an SUV is a 'sports utility vehicle', does that make my Doblo a 'UV'? There's certainly nothing sporty about its performance. The 1.4 16v engine is rated at 95hp, and it is adequate, but the 60hp Panda is distinctly sporty in comparison. I think a lot of those 95 horses are lame.

It conjours up my vision of 12 over fed, jovial, grinning nags sprawling on the back seat of my Panda, feet and things poking out of windows and the bulging hatch back, all laughing and and guffawing, every time the ECO button is pressed. Fortunately when you switch it off they all jump back to work in an instant. I think Pandas are UV's too.

 

[StevenRB45]

Craig Breen..

Rallying is a dangerous game, but the cars are built like tanks so you just kinda expect them to always get away with it.

Apparently not this time, RIP.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Panda 1.2 centre and rear sections of exhaust prices quoted
Fiat - Parts only £478
Kwik Fit £535
Other sensible places m£320 to £350
One quote was for £1600! I know I have gone grey but do these B morons really think I look that daft.
eBay £80

Power fix exhausts ets £325 to 350 for stainless steel...

So for now is a sleeve coutesty of Power Fix for the cost of a drink £5 and a reserve fix from Halfords at £15. Two tyres and tracking recenly were £225 - OK top branded tyres but still this is bloody silly.

In spite of not being fit the car is over my pit awaiting attention now! Bunch of robbers!

17:00 Its now sorted for the time being all for £5 Halfords to the rescue with the right size clamps as all the ones I have are too small for the sleeving so I have two to return to bring the overall spend back to just £5. I now need to identify the right parts and get a system from eBay. Thank heavens for the inspection pit.

 

[StevenRB45]

Panda 1.2 centre and rear sections of exhaust prices quoted
Fiat - Parts only £478
Kwik Fit £535
Other sensible places m£320 to £350
One quote was for £1600! I know I have gone grey but do these B morons really think I look that daft.
eBay £80

Power fix exhausts ets £325 to 350 for stainless steel...

So for now is a sleeve coutesty of Power Fix for the cost of a drink £5 and a reserve fix from Halfords at £15. Two tyres and tracking recenly were £225 - OK top branded tyres but still this is bloody silly.

In spite of not being fit the car is over my pit awaiting attention now! Bunch of robbers!

While the prices are indeed flipping silly.

Don't expect the eBay one to last more than a year, I'd be tempted by custom stainless unless you don't mind doing it again shortly.

 

[irc]

While the prices are indeed flipping silly.

Don't expect the eBay one to last more than a year, I'd be tempted by custom stainless unless you don't mind doing it again shortly.

I fitted a eBay cheapo exhaust (£75 approx at the time) 4 years ago and it's still looking & sounding fine. Brand was BM Catalysts. Seemed to be about the same price as ones listed as "generic" at the time.
It was for someone who has to be firmly prodded to spend any money at all on their Panda, so low price was more important to them than quality.
I expected it last 2 to 3 years max, but it passed another MOT a couple of months ago with no problem. At this rate it could outlast the car (or the driver!)
Of course that's no guarantee that they are still as good, or that they are even made by the same people any more...

 

[porta]

I’m reminded of FWIT as we used to say wehn someone used to come back to the dealers with something that didn’t work or ‘since…there’s a banging noise’…only to have them told ‘we didn’t fit it and it’s not an OEM part’
That was back in the 80’s and 90’s…nowadays I’ve bought cheap stuff, that’s so cheap it’s come from Lithuania, Italy, Hungary (a ducato radiator, full exhaust, bumper) etc and even including P&P it’s been cheaper than cheapest in UK and they’ve fit perfectly and lasted…except the ducato radiator, which they exchanged, free of charge AND rushed delivery!

 

[bugsymike]

Panda 1.2 centre and rear sections of exhaust prices quoted
Fiat - Parts only £478
Kwik Fit £535
Other sensible places m£320 to £350
One quote was for £1600! I know I have gone grey but do these B morons really think I look that daft.
eBay £80

Power fix exhausts ets £325 to 350 for stainless steel...

So for now is a sleeve coutesty of Power Fix for the cost of a drink £5 and a reserve fix from Halfords at £15. Two tyres and tracking recenly were £225 - OK top branded tyres but still this is bloody silly.

In spite of not being fit the car is over my pit awaiting attention now! Bunch of robbers!

In principle Stainless steel sounds good, though a few points some may argue.
1. They tend to sound different to mild steel more tinny, possibly due to number 2.
2. They are more likely to fracture / crack as more likely to be thinner and higher tensity steel.
3. With the issues of number 2 above should you need to weld repair it then ideally specialist argon DC Tig equipment is preferred.

 

[AndyRKett]

Panda 1.2 centre and rear sections of exhaust prices quoted
Fiat - Parts only £478
Kwik Fit £535
Other sensible places m£320 to £350
One quote was for £1600! I know I have gone grey but do these B morons really think I look that daft.
eBay £80

Power fix exhausts ets £325 to 350 for stainless steel...

So for now is a sleeve coutesty of Power Fix for the cost of a drink £5 and a reserve fix from Halfords at £15. Two tyres and tracking recenly were £225 - OK top branded tyres but still this is bloody silly.

In spite of not being fit the car is over my pit awaiting attention now! Bunch of robbers!

When you worked in the trade you get to know who the trade use. In Norwich there is a place on Woodcock Road called Exhausts Unlimited. (you have almost definitely seen there little vans flying all over Norfolk and Suffolk)

They literally carry every exhaust you could possibly want and all at trade prices (+vat)