bigbilly69
New member
I have a campervan based on a Fiat Ducato chassis but cannot find agreement on what engine oil to use in it. It is a 2017, 2.3 Multijet 2 150 (NOT stop and start !). Any help would be appreciated. Many thanks. Bill
Technical What Engine Oil do I Use
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Technical What Engine Oil do I Use
My favourite oil brand is Fuchs which I've been using for many years now with excellent results. Their own oil finder seems to recommend this: https://fuchs-eu.lubricantadvisor.c...ntry=gb&type=e8a3e865709a7bc5442463bc775018a1
I Use Millers in my 2017 2.3 150 euro 6 which meets the Fiat 9.55535-GS1, 9.55535-DS1 specification https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/333020341285
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Recently opened up a ducato 2.3 f1agl411d head with a broken off valve in it. Multiple rockers was worn in to the valves and the broken valves was because of this. I dont have the history of the car but it seems many hydraulic lifter oil channgels was clogged - I would in my next engine perhaps try to find an oil that would assist in preventing this? Any inputs ?
Hoping to find an answer of something like that.. "use oil x because of its soot capabilities".. or Fiat and Italian engineers should not continue to design engines..
Hoping to find an answer of something like that.. "use oil x because of its soot capabilities".. or Fiat and Italian engineers should not continue to design engines..
theoneandonly
Established member
I also use the Fuchs
TITAN GT1 PRO 2312 SAE 0W-30
which complies with the fiat spec
TITAN GT1 PRO 2312 SAE 0W-30
which complies with the fiat spec
I'm using Tesco 5w/40 C3 (which I understand is made by Tetrosyl / Carlube in Bury, who supply the own brand oil to other UK supermarkets ) because I went mad when it was on offer.
I realise Fiat recommend slightly thinner oil - but presumably that has to cover very cold climates which we don't get on the UK mainland, being surrounded by water warmed by the gulf stream.
From what I have read thicker oil protects better, especially when hot. But thinner oil is necessary for extreme cold starts.
I realise Fiat recommend slightly thinner oil - but presumably that has to cover very cold climates which we don't get on the UK mainland, being surrounded by water warmed by the gulf stream.
From what I have read thicker oil protects better, especially when hot. But thinner oil is necessary for extreme cold starts.
So just the wrong grade, the wrong ACEA rating and not to the required Fiat specification then. Seriously, why would you risk doing that to save a few quid?
Another Fuchs Pro2312 user here.
Before I cause you any anxiety let me say right away that I think it very unlikely that using this oil viscosity 5w-40 instead of the recommended 0w-30 in our relatively mild climate conditions is most unlikely to have any detrimental effect on the engine and ACEA C3 is a very modern spec of low ash (so it protects DPFs etc). Here is some "serious" reading all about the ACEA specs if you want to delve deeper - the top quarter of the "page" is probably all you need to read. https://penriteoil.com.au/knowledge-centre/Specifications/194/acea-service-classifications/364
Regarding viscosity. What you are considering here is, in simple terms, resistance to flow. So an SAE - Society of Automotive Engineers - rated oil with a low number, say 0 or 5 is going to be more "runny" than and oil with a 30, 40 or 50. Here is a good article which explains it all in pretty simple language: https://www.repairsmith.com/i/blog/sae-oil/
Pretty much everything we use now-a-days is multigrade and typical "thicknesses" are maybe 5W-30 as used in my Ibiza, 5W40 in my Panda or even 0W-20 as used in the Jazz. if you're still confused by it all then a nice simple way to think about it is to consider a simple monograde oil. Lets take an SAE 30 grade - what I use in my ancient lawnmower. On a reasonably cool spring day, when I'm doing it's oil change ready for the first cut of the year, the new oil pours out of it's bottle like a really runny honey-in-a-bottle. However I always run the engine for some time before draining the old oil which probably takes it up to somewhere around the temperature of boiling water and it drains out in a very runny condition, much more "runny" than the new oil which is about to go back in.
So this tells us that a monograde oil looses viscosity - gets thinner - as it gets hotter. The result of this was that in the old days you ran a thick oil in summer and a thin oil in winter. The recommended grade also varied by country. Thicker oils in hot countries and thinner in cold. This meant 2 oil changes per year which actually was no bad thing because the additive packages back in those days were either non existent or very basic so the oil couldn't cope with contaminants. This lead to the invention of Multigrade oils (I think in the 1950s?) and ever improving additive packages which allowed the oils to operate in wider temperature ranges and protect for longer.
So "multigrade". What does it mean in simple terms? Well, think about a monograde oil's viscosity. As it heats up it gets thinner which has disadvantages. On start up the oil may be too thick to be ideal which means the engine will be "stiff" to turn over and the oil may take quite a number of revolutions before this "thicker" oil can be pumped round to all the places it needs to reach which means undesirable wear will be greater on cold starts. Then as the engine warms up the oil will thin out until it gets to an ideal "designed for" thickness where lubrication is being supplied at the ideal rate. Unfortunately not all engine parts operate at the same temperature and when pulling hard, say up a hill or pulling a trailer or any other of many scenarios, the oil will become too hot and get too thin to give maximum protection. Multigrade oils go a long way to addressing this and also allow the same oil to be used all year round.
So how do they perform this "miracle"? Well, unsurprisingly it's technically quite complicated, but think of it this way. When the engine is cold the designer can specify a thin viscosity of oil which will quickly flow round the engine and reach all the parts, travel through restrictor jets and stuff like VVT solenoid valves and other "tweeky" stuff it needs to reach whilst also providing good lubrication. An oil as thin as this (just imagine how thin that 0W grade is for the Honda, it pours pretty much like water!) is going to thin further very rapidly as the engine warms until very soon it is going to be so thin it might as well actually be water! However the clever chemists who "brew" this stuff add in Viscosity Improvers which modify the viscosity performance of the oil. Think of them as tiny little octopuses (or are they octopi?) when they are cold they wrap their tentacles tightly around themselves so are like very small smooth balls. As they get hotter they uncurl their tentacles and eventually link together like a sort of honeycomb matrix which increases their resistance to the oil flowing around them. So, as the base monograde oil gets hotter and thinner the little octopuses are unferling their arms and resisting the flow of oil. The result of all this is that the oil doesn't loose anything like as much viscosity as it otherwise would when it's hot.
The multigrade designation, let's just take the Fiat's 5w-40 means that when cold it'll flow as a COLD 5 designated oil does, (the W stands for Winter not Weight as many think) so it's going to be quite runny and will reach the farthest and most difficult to reach parts of the engine quickly, but when hot it performs as a HOT 40 designated oil will. People get very confused by this because they think "Ah, 5w-40 means nice and thin (the 5) when cold but reasonably thick when hot (the 40) but you have to remember that the 5 rating is when the engine is cold (I think it's measured at freezing point so 0 centigrade?) and the 40 is taken when the engine is hot (boiling point I think? so 100 centigrade) In practice, to the Mk1 eyeball what this often means is that the thin oil you poured in cold seems to be about the same thickness when you drain it out hot. Unless it's hopelessly degraded due to having been subjected to extreme heat which will destroy the octopusses - and lots of other goodies - or, if very old, and especially if very old and you try to drain it cold, may come out like a thick treacle!
The viscosity is only part of the picture, we haven't looked at the minefield which is mineral, semi synthetic or fully synthetic oils or the additive packages which further improve the oil's ability to protect and reduce the effect of contaminants. It's very complicated and although older engine designs like our wee FIRE engines are pretty tolerant of a range of oils without giving much trouble I still like to go for an oil which carries actual Fiat accreditation - 9.55535-S2 for both our Pand and my boy's Punto. When it comes to more modern engines, especially these wee highly stressed turbo petrols most of the manufacturers are foisting on us these days, you are "playing with fire" (in my humble opinion) if you fill it with anything not officially approved by the manufacturer. So for my Ibiza, which needs VW specification VW 502/504 I use Fuchs Titan GT1 Pro C3 5W-30 and if you look on the back of the tin you'll see this:
The Titan GT1 PRO and the XTL are of some interest, especially the claims they make for their XTL technology, but the real nitty gritty is in the C3 and 5w-30 which is the grade and spec I'm looking for. More important though is what's below it on the label:
VW 504.00, 507.00 which tells me it's fully compliant with the better spec 504 VW are looking for to be used in my engine, better than the acceptable 502 spec but not only that, it exceeds the 504 by being 507 compliant. So this is about the "best" oil I can buy for her almost regardless of price. You may notice Fuchs very interestingly include "Fuchs Recommendations" on their label and on this label they "recommend it's use in applications where Fiat 9.55536.S3 and Chrysler MS-11106 are called for. I actually contacted them asking about these recommendations and if I've understood correctly this is what it's all about. To obtain a manufacturer's "approval" the oil has to be independently tested by or on behalf of the manufacturer and accredited to meet their specification. I believe the costs involved are considerable. So not all oils achieve "manufacturer's approval" simply because they are not tested due to the cost. Fuchs publish these "recommendations" because as the manufacturer of the oil they know it meets that spec but can't list it as "approved" because they haven't submitted it for testing. I would be very happy to accept the word of a high quality manufacturer like Fuchs on this one, but I'd feel a bit less likely to trust such a claim on a cheap bottle of unknown branded oil.
Oh dear, I've gone "off on one" again haven't I? hope it was informative to some though
Kindest regards
Jock
I meant to say above, but Mrs J interrupted me by producing my tea - vegy chinese spring rolls and onion bhajis with mango chutney, yum yum! That although I doubt if going to a 5w-40 instead of the recommended 0w-30 is unlikely to do any real damage it's not a good idea to run any oil which doesn't meet manufacturer's recommendations. Thicker oils in particular can cause problems with actuators/hydraulic followers etc and oil supplies to the top end of the engine which often have restrictors in the drillings. In years gone by worn engines could maybe have their life extended a little by using a thicker oil to cut oil consumption - you do this at your peril these days. If you have a turbo then be very careful what you put in it and always go for a very high spec. Turbos can do no end of mischief to oils and a poor quality oil can actually burn onto the turbo spindle and cause carbon contamination of the oilways in the turbo - turbos ain't cheap, you have been warned! You can actually buy products which describe themselves as "No smoke oil" but I haven't seen one with any accreditation details - SAE, API ACEA etc - of any meaningful sort at all on their containers.
If you're unsure or don't understand what I'm talking about here it's the Manufacturer's approval you're looking for on that oil can. Look in your car's manual. For my Ibiza I'm looking to see VW 502/504 VW 502.00/504.00 The 504 allows extended service intervals and is a superior product to the 502. For my Panda I'm looking for that 9.55535-S2. There will be other oils which, especially with the Fiat, will operate very satisfactorily but if you are unsure then identifying them becomes a bit of a minefield, looking for a product with that approval number on it will ensure minimum chance of problems.
If you're unsure or don't understand what I'm talking about here it's the Manufacturer's approval you're looking for on that oil can. Look in your car's manual. For my Ibiza I'm looking to see VW 502/504 VW 502.00/504.00 The 504 allows extended service intervals and is a superior product to the 502. For my Panda I'm looking for that 9.55535-S2. There will be other oils which, especially with the Fiat, will operate very satisfactorily but if you are unsure then identifying them becomes a bit of a minefield, looking for a product with that approval number on it will ensure minimum chance of problems.
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- C2
Stable, stay in grade oil for use in vehicles fitted with DPFs & TWCs and in high performance diesel and petrol engines requiring low friction, low viscosity and Mid SAPS (Sulphated Ash <0.8%) oils, with a minimum HT/HS viscosity of 2.9 cP. - C3
Stable, stay in grade oil for use in vehicles fitted with DPFs & TWCs and in high performance diesel and petrol engines requiring low friction, low viscosity and Mid SAPS (Sulphated Ash < 0.8%) oils, with a minimum HT/HS viscosity of 3.5 cP. These oils may also meet A3/B4* and API SN
I wouldn't use it if I thought it was harmful
But as far as I can see, the only variance from Fiat's recommendation is its slightly thicker, which is probably better for our mild climate.
And as Jock says, it doesn't mean its not to Fiat's specification
Just that they have not gone to the expense of having it tested and certified by Fiat
It says on the bottles
'Tesco 5w40 C3 Fully Synthetic Suitable for the latest high performance petrol & diesel engines including Turbo Charged. Meets or exceeds the requirements of the following specifications API SN, ACEA C3, MB229.31/229.51, BMW LL-04
Tesco Oban were selling of 4 litre bottles last year for £5 each
Why so cheap? - well apparently the 4 litre size is discontinued because
Next time I looked they had only 1 litre bottles with the same label and spec for about £10 each
Isn't the world of marketing a mad one? There's your manufacturer discontinuing the 4 litre containers and Castrol now selling nearly everything in that 4 litre size? wonder why? Oh, silly me, they're selling the 4 litre size for around the same price as their competition sell their 5 litre bottles - Maybe they think we'll not notice?
PS: Just looked and you can get it on ebay;
5W40 fully synthetic C3 Engine Oil 5 w 40 4 litre Fully Synthetic | eBay
5W40 fully synthetic C3 Engine Oil 5 w 40 4 litre Fully Synthetic.
www.ebay.co.uk
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I just jumped back into this thread before we go off back out into "wilder Midlothian" to look after grandchildren for the afternoon, to see if anyone had posted since last night and it occurred to me that I hadn't made really any reference to the API (American Petroleum Institute) classification system. It's the American equivalent to our ACEA and quite some years ago, was the spec you always looked for and trusted. This is not to say it's not to be trusted to this day but may be more applicable to American buyers. The ACEA system is European based and has somewhat stricter requirements so is probably more applicable to vehicles being run in Europe. In fact that first link I gave you in my original post starts out right at the beginning by saying just this: https://penriteoil.com.au/knowledge...ociation des,and has more severe requirements.
So, if the label gives me the choice, I'm much more interested to see whether an oil complies with my manufacturer recommended ACEA spec but would be reassured to accept the API accreditation if the ACEA is not shown.
Another good way of finding a suitable oil is to consult an online "oil finder". If you have a preferred brand (like my preference for Fuchs) you can consult their actual website: https://www.fuchs.com/se/en/products/service-links/oil-chooser/ or you can look at a retailer's site which will have the advantage that they will list a choice of manufacturers whose product they can supply: https://www.opieoils.co.uk/service-packs-for-your-vehicle.aspx. and remember, once you've identified the oil you decide to go with, to check out special offers on the likes of Ebay/Amazon and the like as there are always offers available which you can then compare with the price being quoted on the supplier site. Sometimes quite large savings are to be had - for instance I bought 5 litres of my Ibiza's oil a couple of weeks ago for the same price quoted here for 4 litres off eBay from a trusted supplier.
So, if the label gives me the choice, I'm much more interested to see whether an oil complies with my manufacturer recommended ACEA spec but would be reassured to accept the API accreditation if the ACEA is not shown.
Another good way of finding a suitable oil is to consult an online "oil finder". If you have a preferred brand (like my preference for Fuchs) you can consult their actual website: https://www.fuchs.com/se/en/products/service-links/oil-chooser/ or you can look at a retailer's site which will have the advantage that they will list a choice of manufacturers whose product they can supply: https://www.opieoils.co.uk/service-packs-for-your-vehicle.aspx. and remember, once you've identified the oil you decide to go with, to check out special offers on the likes of Ebay/Amazon and the like as there are always offers available which you can then compare with the price being quoted on the supplier site. Sometimes quite large savings are to be had - for instance I bought 5 litres of my Ibiza's oil a couple of weeks ago for the same price quoted here for 4 litres off eBay from a trusted supplier.
Hi,Recently opened up a ducato 2.3 f1agl411d head with a broken off valve in it. Multiple rockers was worn in to the valves and the broken valves was because of this. I dont have the history of the car but it seems many hydraulic lifter oil channgels was clogged - I would in my next engine perhaps try to find an oil that would assist in preventing this? Any inputs ?
Hoping to find an answer of something like that.. "use oil x because of its soot capabilities".. or Fiat and Italian engineers should not continue to design engines..
Rather than poor oil quality I would suggest damage probably caused by neglected / missed / no servicing.
May I add I am not a fan of extended service intervals.
Best wishes
Jack
I was not a fan of extended service intervals either, until a friend told me he hadn't changed the oil in his own little petrol engined car for 13 years -
The car looked immaculate and was still running perfectly - But - it had only done 10,000 miles.
I read that BMW are developing an engine which, like modern gearboxes, which will be filled for life and never need an oil change.
I am not recommending it though.
I now change the oil at the manufacturers recommended intervals, wheras I used to do it sooner.
The car looked immaculate and was still running perfectly - But - it had only done 10,000 miles.
I read that BMW are developing an engine which, like modern gearboxes, which will be filled for life and never need an oil change.
I am not recommending it though.
I now change the oil at the manufacturers recommended intervals, wheras I used to do it sooner.
theoneandonly
Established member
Recently bougt 2l Bottles of vw 507 for £5 reduced from 23, the better spec cheaper than the older spec. Bought for my Skoda but if some goes in my sons corsa its better than him not bothering for 3 years. Wouldnt put any thing other than correct in my Ducato every year. Thers some amazing chemistry in long life oils but only suitable for enginge that are used not Motorhomes sat doing nothing other than degrading.
theoneandonly
Established member
Something i wrote a while ago on another forum
I am not an oil Technologist, my simple view
Modern oils for modern engines (this does not apply to A series engines or MGBs) are quite complex and are designed for working engines not Motorhomes sat still for 3-6 months. The synthetic esters used can have acid structures within the chains that degrade with separation (but not if stirred) and form acids that you dont want circulating . The main form of degradation is oxidation of additives (once additives used up it is no longer the oil it was designed to be and offer same properties.)Nitrogen in form of NOx is also involved in degradation. Very High temperatures can be a problem.
Main source of oxygen for oxidation is water in the oil. In winter Condensation is a good source of water for degradation. If the oil is brought up to temperature (greater than 100C) the water is driven out and manageable levels maintained. hence the reccomendation for weekly/ monthly runs. If you don't acid formation accelerates. This doesnt happen with mineral oils and some older additives in the same way. the more you use it you reduce oxidation potential and increase possible contamination loading (soot and combustion products) Hence 6.7l sumps and 20000mile lives (if used).
so in a sentence, use it regularly or if stood for 6 months change oil before starting. If you dont it wont fall apart tommorrow but you are not extending its life.
I am not an oil Technologist, my simple view
Modern oils for modern engines (this does not apply to A series engines or MGBs) are quite complex and are designed for working engines not Motorhomes sat still for 3-6 months. The synthetic esters used can have acid structures within the chains that degrade with separation (but not if stirred) and form acids that you dont want circulating . The main form of degradation is oxidation of additives (once additives used up it is no longer the oil it was designed to be and offer same properties.)Nitrogen in form of NOx is also involved in degradation. Very High temperatures can be a problem.
Main source of oxygen for oxidation is water in the oil. In winter Condensation is a good source of water for degradation. If the oil is brought up to temperature (greater than 100C) the water is driven out and manageable levels maintained. hence the reccomendation for weekly/ monthly runs. If you don't acid formation accelerates. This doesnt happen with mineral oils and some older additives in the same way. the more you use it you reduce oxidation potential and increase possible contamination loading (soot and combustion products) Hence 6.7l sumps and 20000mile lives (if used).
so in a sentence, use it regularly or if stood for 6 months change oil before starting. If you dont it wont fall apart tommorrow but you are not extending its life.
When I was at automotive college in London back in the '60's I had already, back in Edinburgh, met my future wife but not her sister. The future Mrs J came down to London to start working for an airline and moved in with her sister who already worked there and lived in London. When I was first introduced to her sister we decided to go down to one of the riverside pubs to celebrate the occasion and on the way back into town the engine of her elderly mini was running rather hot. I was by now in my 2nd year at the college so had quite a good understanding of how cars worked and offered to give the car a quick check over. There was oil showing on the dipstick, but well below the "low" mark and the rad needed topped up. The car looked generally neglected so I offered to take it in with me to the college as I'd reached the part of my course where I was in the engine shop and I knew the instructor was keen to allow students to work on "real" cars. When we pulled the sump plug only about a couple of pints of disgusting looking and very dirty oil came out. I called the instructor over because I couldn't understand how so little oil could have registered on the dip stick. "Pull the rocker cover" said he. I did and found the most disgusting black jelly thickly coating everything. - black sludge. Sister-in-law to be couldn't tell me when she'd last had it serviced! We ended up making a project out of the power unit, after removing it from the car the first thing we did was separate the gearbox from the engine (this was the "old" mini with the gearbox in the sump) and it was full of gungy black sludge which felt rather like black swarfega! This was taking up all the free space normally occupied by the oil which explains why only a couple of pints of liquid oil was enough to register on the dip stick! We stripped both engine and gearbox down to their individual component parts, cleaning everything up till it "sparkled", polished the crank journals with emery (which luckily came up quite nicely without a regrind) and fitted new shells and a set of cords "ridge dodger" rings. Many other parts were "refurbished" too, The rocker arm bushes and the rocker shaft were a bit the worse for wear but we put the old ones back because of lack of finance which was a pity because the valve gear was slightly "tappy", but it ran fine. I remember shimming the idler gear in the transfer housing especially well for some reason. It took us about a month to leisurely do all this and I put in some overtime deshiming the suspension ball joints - great fun! - and generally sorting out stuff like the brakes etc while it was in the shop anyway. Luckily the Tin Worm hadn't yet got much of a hold and the car was almost like a new vehicle when I took it back to her. I was absolutely gutted when she traded it in for a Triumph Herald just a few months later. On the other hand our instructor was absolutely delighted with the project and told us how much more we would have learned working on a road car instead of training media and it certainly did in my opinion.
I know modern lubricants have taken massive steps forward since the old 20W-50 we used to bung in pretty much everything in those days but that experience taught me the value of regular oil changes. Like you Reg and also you Jack - and I suspect many more of us? I don't believe in extended interval oil changes. I know there are a lot of vehicles running around on 2year/20,000 mile service intervals and seeming to be Ok, but it's just not for me. I go with a yearly service and oil change - with filter naturally. So what if it costs me slightly more in oil costs? Lot cheaper than fixing engine wear problems. Mind you I do tend to keep my cars "for ever" might be different if I was trading in every few years?
