Technical Weird alignment issue

[Bergi NZ]

I had the alignment done on our Panda on the 20th December as it pulled slightly left and the steering wheel wasn't perfectly straight.
The very next day it had 4 new Pirelli P7 tires fitted and immediately began pulling left on roads with little or no camber.
I took it back to the company who did the alignment and explained the situation. They immediately said it would be the new tyres, they've had experience with new tires not tracking straight from time to time.
They swapped the wheels around without doing anything else and it's tracking straight again
They're a large, experienced competent company, not some guys in a shed.
Anyone had a similar experience on any vehicle?

 

[bugsymike]

I had the alignment done on our Panda on the 20th December as it pulled slightly left and the steering wheel wasn't perfectly straight.
The very next day it had 4 new Pirelli P7 tires fitted and immediately began pulling left on roads with little or no camber.
I took it back to the company who did the alignment and explained the situation. They immediately said it would be the new tyres, they've had experience with new tires not tracking straight from time to time.
They swapped the wheels around without doing anything else and it's tracking straight again
They're a large, experienced competent company, not some guys in a shed.
Anyone had a similar experience on any vehicle?

Initially I would say B.S. from many years of experience in the motor trade using older style wheel alignment equipment.
However if they are measuring thrust lines etc. I am guessing that with the old tyres worn in a certain way and using their type of equipment to measure, I suppose it is possible that new straight tyres would give a different result.
My type of equipment simply measured statically at the wheel rims and I set it to makers specifications, in which case subsequently fitting new tyres would not be an issue.
If you are happy the company did no further adjustments other than swapping of the wheels around it surprises me that that alone made a difference.
So if you are happy they are competent and everything is safe and secure with no other issues you have to trust that.
By the way, there are some quite competent "guys in sheds" as well as many incompetent "guys in large companies", in general it is more about the operator than then fancy equipment.
In the 1970s working as foreman at a Mazda Franchise we had customers who drove Mazda RX3s and RX4 Rotary engineed cars at fairly high speeds who complained that their wheels were shaking after local company (part of a National Tyre business had supplied tyres and balanced their wheels with the latest equipment.
I used an old wheel balancer we had, which you had to spin up manually and then apply an ink coated paint brush to mark where the balance weights were needed (probably something from the 1950s that was bolted to an oil container) it looked awful, but when the customers returned from their 100+ MPH road tests they were well pleased at the results!

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

By the way, there are some quite competent "guys in sheds" as well as many incompetent "guys in large companies", in general it is more about the operator than then fancy equipment.
In the 1970s working as foreman at a Mazda Franchise we had customers who drove Mazda RX3s and RX4 Rotary engineed cars at fairly high speeds who complained that their wheels were shaking after local company (part of a National Tyre business had supplied tyres and balanced their wheels with the latest equipment.
I used an old wheel balancer we had, which you had to spin up manually and then apply an ink coated paint brush to mark where the balance weights were needed (probably something from the 1950s that was bolted to an oil container) it looked awful, but when the customers returned from their 100+ MPH road tests they were well pleased at the results!

Both of these tasks are so open to operator abuse/ignorance/indifference. To get a meaningful result there's a lot of checking to do before measuring the existing settings and/or making adjustments. Sometimes a tracking job (setting toe, which is by far the most common alignment task) becomes very difficult to do due to seized components or damage to them (stuff like rounded off adjusters) and instead of persevering the operator just gets things "approximately" right. Modern equipment usually gives a paper print out on completion and I'd always insist on being provided with this - it's very difficult to falsify the readout.

Wheel balancing is a similar situation. Most of the time it's easily achieved, thank goodness, but it can be a bit of a nightmare, especially with cheap budget tyres and the temptation again is to just get it "near enough" and hope the customer won't complain. One wee tip. With modern alloy wheel design often making it easy to see the inner rim of the wheel, look through the wheel and check the old weights have all been removed - They'll look dirty whereas new ones look clean and bright. Wheels balanced without removing the old weights will often need more new weights than they would if done properly and are more likely to give balance problems as the tyre ages - it's just bad practice anyway and a competent tyre fitter should never do it.

Regarding your pulling to one side problem. This is a common topic on the forum regarding Pandas and is often reported as pulling towards the kerb. There are many theories as to what causes it but an out of alignment rear axle is often mentioned and is difficult to do anything about as no easy adjustment is possible. The general recommendation is to get a 4 wheel alignment check done before taking an uninformed stab at sorting it. I wouldn't expect fitting new tyres to introduce a problem like this but changing around tyres which have already run on the vehicle to a different position often causes problems due to tyres wearing a different profile depending on which wheel they've been running on. If you must move tyres around - people do it to equalize wear - then do it diagonally, so N/S/F to O/S/R etc or front to rear, so N/S/F to N/S/R. Don't move them round the vehicle clockwise or anticlockwise as you'll end up with a rear on one side at the front and the opposite side front moving over to the other side front - So one front and one rear on the front and, as fronts and rears always wear differently that's a recipe for trouble. I don't rotate mine as I like to let them wear out in pairs. When new fronts are needed I move them to the rear and put the old rears on the front.

Buying part worns often gives the same sort of problems as they will have adopted a profile on the previous vehicle which is unlikely to be appropriate for yours. To be honest I really can't recommend part worns as they are often quite well worn and, for what they cost you, really aren't a bargain. If you really must then look at the four figure date stamp on the sidewall. Anything over 5 years old is going to give noticeably poorer performance due to aging of the tread rubber which reduces it's ability to grip. More than anything though is that you don't know the tyres history and it may have structural damage - how often do you see vehicles mounting the pavement when parking? also just look at all the potholes! Damage to the structure of a tyre is often not obvious when visually inspected and can only really be checked by X ray or other technical checks.

 

[jrkitching]

Wheels balanced without removing the old weights will often need more new weights than they would if done properly and are more likely to give balance problems as the tyre ages - it's just bad practice anyway and a competent tyre fitter should never do it.

I'd agree.

One way to make sure they do this is to remove the existing weights before taking the wheel to the tyre shop. Easy enough to do if you're one of those folks who prefer taking the wheels off the car to avoid collateral damage caused by hamfisted jacking.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

One way to make sure they do this is to remove the existing weights before taking the wheel to the tyre shop. Easy enough to do if you're one of those folks who prefer taking the wheels off the car to avoid collateral damage caused by hamfisted jacking.

A very good point jrk. I've mentioned before that I was forced to change tyre supplier when my favorite tyre shop closed down and I was pointed in the direction of a mobile tyre fitter by my friend who owns the local Honda indy. It's working very well for me. I ring Stephen (maybe Steven?) when I need a tyre and he gets it usually within 24 hours. Then he comes round to the house where I've already got the car jacked up and wheel removed ready for him. He strips the old tyre off the rim and mounts the new one before balancing it and giving it back to me to refit to the vehicle. He has all the jacking equipment etc and does the wheel removal and replacement when he does tyres for other family members but I like to do my own for exactly the reasons you state. Also means I get to use my own torque wrench which I know is calibrated correctly. He seems to know what he's doing when jacking the cars though as I've not noticed any marks or bent sill seams on the other family vehicles. The first time he came round I mentioned about removing the old weights and he seemed almost offended that I should need to mention it! Actually some of the stick on weights can be quite hard to remove so you need to be careful with alloy rims not to mark them.

I'm so pleased with him that I have no hesitation in recommending him to any one around the Edinburgh area but be aware he only works/travels within the limits of the City Bypass (A702) One of my boys lives within that boundary but the other is just outside it so he drives in to one of the local supermarkets which is inside the bypass and they change the tyre in a quiet part of the car park. The supermarket doesn't seem to mind. Just in case anyone's interested this is his company: https://www.citymobiletyres.com/ His prices are pretty keen too and all inclusive so what he quotes is what you pay. He doesn't charge separately for valve and balance.

Note: when my friend first referred me to him I thought it was a leg pull as they are both named Steven - or is it Stephen? I must ask.

 

[jrkitching]

Actually some of the stick on weights can be quite hard to remove so you need to be careful with alloy rims not to mark them

Very true. Not the end of the world on the inside, but definitely something to think about on the visible surfaces.

It's not easy to find an adhesive which will secure a lead weight in all weathers and still be easily removable when needed.

Using a solvent is one possibility if you can find something that will soften the glue without damaging the paint/lacquer.

I'd start by using (carefully) a hot air gun/hairdryer on its lowest setting.

You're reminding me of another one of the advantages of steel wheels.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Just a quick comment regarding swapping the wheels around… the general advice with all cars now seems to be that you shouldn’t swap from near side to offside (they used to recommend the X - shaped cross @Pugglt Auld Jock mentions). The ‘excuse’ for this is that a tyre turning in the opposite direction to the way it was previously going has some effect… I don’t buy that. But, the real reason is most tyres (especially all season types) have a specific direction of rotation so that the tread woks properly. Swapping NSF to OSR would mean the tread goes backwards and will drive water into the tread rather than expelling it.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

My Panda seems to pull to the left, even after repeated tracking/alignment checks. I have CrossClimate tyres and they do seem to follow the camber more than previous tyres? If I find a road that is flat it runs straight… and on some other surfaces it’s happy too.

 

[bugsymike]

Just a quick comment regarding swapping the wheels around… the general advice with all cars now seems to be that you shouldn’t swap from near side to offside (they used to recommend the X - shaped cross @Pugglt Auld Jock mentions). The ‘excuse’ for this is that a tyre turning in the opposite direction to the way it was going has some effect… I don’t buy that. But, the real reason is ost tyres (especially all season types) have a specific direction of rotation so that the tread woks properly. Swapping NSF to OSR would mean the tread goes backwards and will drive water into the tread rather than expelling it.

I tend to only swap front to rear etc. on same side, the cross swap used to be recommended on Cross plies to get max. usuage, it was in all the hand books.
However a friend of mine many years ago started a Second Hand tyre Business (yes I know , not my choice either, especially after seeing dodgy car dealers selling luxury high performance vehicle being his best customers! ) however what I did notice was with radial tyres the side walls showed rapid signs of deterioration due to running in the opposite direction from their previous life.
This was before directional tyres came along.
The cross swap could work if tyres were marked and removed from rims to new position on opposite side of vehicle, but a lot of hassle and rebalancing etc..

 

[Bergi NZ]

Thanks for all your comments/observations.
The wheel alignment was done on one of those jigs where the car is elevated on a large platform and readings are taken from the rims, not tires. Everything computerized except any adjustments made but of course those feed into the computer as well.
As mentioned, the car had brand new Pirelli tires fitted.
I've only mentioned "guys in a shed" to try to highlight that the work was done by a large, competent company using latest equipment.
The previous wheel weight adhesive was removed when balancing/fitting new weights. I thought all good companies did this?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

My Panda seems to pull to the left, even after repeated tracking/alignment checks. I have CrossClimate tyres and they do seem to follow the camber more than previous tyres? If I find a road that is flat it runs straight… and on some other surfaces it’s happy too.

Exactly our experience with Becky (2010 1.2 Panda) - although she's on very ordinary summer tyres.

Just a quick comment regarding swapping the wheels around… the general advice with all cars now seems to be that you shouldn’t swap from near side to offside (they used to recommend the X - shaped cross @Pugglt Auld Jock mentions). The ‘excuse’ for this is that a tyre turning in the opposite direction to the way it was previously going has some effect… I don’t buy that. But, the real reason is most tyres (especially all season types) have a specific direction of rotation so that the tread woks properly. Swapping NSF to OSR would mean the tread goes backwards and will drive water into the tread rather than expelling it.

I don't like the restriction of rotational tyres for exactly the reason you state here - so I avoid them.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

most tyres (especially all season types) have a specific direction of rotation so that the tread woks properly. Swapping NSF to OSR would mean the tread goes backwards and will drive water into the tread rather than expelling it.

Not sure if I agree with your statement that "most tyres have a specific direction of rotation"? I certainly agree that they are not uncommon and, strangely enough? many of the really cheap and "nasty" offerings seem to be of this type. However I'm wondering if you're including tyres with asymmetric tread patterns? That is to say where the pattern is different on one side compared to the other - often a "finer" pattern on the outside shoulder compared to a much more "blocky" pattern on the inner. These types of tyre will be marked "inside and "outside on their sidewall and must be fitted with the outside marking facing out. However they are not directional so may be fitted anywhere on the vehicle. Many of the better tyres on offer today feature this type of tread and it does offer performance advantages, in fact I go out of my way to prioritize them when buying. Truly directional tyres are designed to move water from the middle of the tread to the outside and must be used the right way round - so, once mounted on the wheel can only be used on the side of the vehicle intended. They work much as tractor driving wheels do where the tread moves mud to the outside allowing better grip. Fitted the wrong way round they channel mud into the middle of the tread and greatly reduce grip.

It's also true that many of the highest performance tyres are directional and probably this type of design gives the manufacturer the scope to produce a less compromised and very high performance spec suitable for "super cars" and the like. Pandas tootle along very happily on good midrange spec tyres!

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Not sure if I agree with your statement that "most tyres have a specific direction of rotation"?

Maybe change 'most' to 'many'... This is only based on my experiences with my various 4x4 Pandas, each of which has had all-season tyres marked with a clear 'rotation direction' arrow... which means they can't be swapped for one side of the car to the car. As it happens, the 4x4 Pandas in my hands seems to be quite even with their front/rear tyre wear so its not something I've actually had to do

 

[bugsymike]

This is only based on my experiences with my various 4x4 Pandas, each of which has had all-season tyres marked with a clear 'rotation direction' arrow... which means they can't be swapped for one side of the car to the car. As it happens, the 4x4 Pandas in my hands seems to be quite even with their front/rear tyre wear so its not something I've actually had to do

View attachment 457630

I had some similar tread pattern to that which were more of a snow tyre and found them great in a bit of snow, but if on a normal wet road you tend to throw the car in to a bend a little "spiritedly" shall we say I found it caused the rear end to hang out as they lacked grip in that position compared to normal road tyres.
Admittedly this was just a FWD vehicle.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Maybe change 'most' to 'many'... This is only based on my experiences with my various 4x4 Pandas, each of which has had all-season tyres marked with a clear 'rotation direction' arrow... which means they can't be swapped for one side of the car to the car. As it happens, the 4x4 Pandas in my hands seems to be quite even with their front/rear tyre wear so its not something I've actually had to do

View attachment 457630

What an excellent image for illustrating the action of this type of design. The tyre shown here would be mounted to the O/S so rotating clockwise looking at the outside of that wheel. If you consider the action of the tread grooves, as the tyre presents it's tread surface to the road, the water will tend to be "squeezed" along the grooves towards the shoulders thus allowing the rubber to contact the road surface. Lots of grooves and "sipes" (the smaller thinner grooves) mean it's ability to disperse water is increased over a "summer" pattern but, unfortunately, as Mike found out, it will tend to destabilize the surface which is in contact with the road thus meaning it'll tend to squirm and not to "hang on" so well in the dry. (There's good reason why dry racing tyres have no tread grooves) This effect can be mitigated somewhat by using softer and more "grippy" tread rubber compound but this will mean the tyre wears more quickly - especially if you continue to use it in hot weather. in "serious" winter conditions the many grooves allow for light snow to be displaced and the softer rubber will increase it's likelyhood of gaining purchase. Still won't be much use on extensive ice though, only studs really help then.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

What an excellent image for illustrating the action of this type of design. The tyre shown here would be mounted to the O/S so rotating clockwise looking at the outside of that wheel. If you consider the action of the tread grooves, as the tyre presents it's tread surface to the road, the water will tend to be "squeezed" along the grooves towards the shoulders thus allowing the rubber to contact the road surface. Lots of grooves and "sipes" (the smaller thinner grooves) mean it's ability to disperse water is increased over a "summer" pattern but, unfortunately, as Mike found out, it will tend to destabilize the surface which is in contact with the road thus meaning it'll tend to squirm and not to "hang on" so well in the dry. (There's good reason why dry racing tyres have no tread grooves) This effect can be mitigated somewhat by using softer and more "grippy" tread rubber compound but this will mean the tyre wears more quickly - especially if you continue to use it in hot weather. in "serious" winter conditions the many grooves allow for light snow to be displaced and the softer rubber will increase it's likelyhood of gaining purchase. Still won't be much use on extensive ice though, only studs really help then.

The image is a Michelin CrossClimate tyre - one of the ‘favourite’ choices on the Panda — especially the 4x4 versions, including my own — from reading various posts. The other favourite is the Goodyear all season, with a visually very similar tread. The all season options from Continental, Vredestein and Nokian are also similar. All these also work reasonably well on mud in the summer, which also explains their popularity with us 4x4 owners While not quite as good in snow as a dedicated winter tyre, they come close — stopping way better than a summer tyre in cold weather — and yet are ‘reasonably good’ in summer heat and rain as well. A good all rounder for most conditions.

Until Fiat started fitting summer tyres to all Pandas (part of a fuel efficiency drive) the 4x4 Cross models all came from the factory with Goodyear Vector all-seasons, but the regular’ 4x4 (the non-Cross models) had full winter tyres, Continental CrossContact Winters… these were good in snow but very poor in the wet of summer. I changed mine to the Michelin all seasons long before they’d worn out as they really didn’t inspire confidence.

My car does follow the camber and pull to the left, even though several checks show the tracking is correct. But, the outer edge of my left tyre is more worn than the others: a function of living in a town which is all roundabouts! This slight extra wear on the front left does seem to affect the directionally quite a bit. It’s better if inflated marginally more than Fiat suggest.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

It’s better if inflated marginally more than Fiat suggest.

Now I find that interesting because Becky responds well to having her front tyres slightly over inflated too! On a normally cambered road she pulls slightly to the left. On a near perfectly flat surface she's almost entirely neutral (large car park) but goes to the nearside very very slightly if I take my hands off the wheel. If I drive her on the "wrong" side of the road, so experiencing camber in the opposite side, you can detect a very slight pull to the right. Nothing like as noticeable as when driving on the "right" side of a normally cambered road though. Non of these effects are very strong and I've tried so many things over the years I've now given up and will just drive her the way she is until she fails MOT on something terminal.

 

[Bergi NZ]

Thanks, Herts Hillhopper, I'll try a little more pressure in the L/H (downcamber) tire. We drive on the left here in New Zealand too.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Not sure if I agree with your statement that "most tyres have a specific direction of rotation"? I certainly agree that they are not uncommon and, strangely enough? many of the really cheap and "nasty" offerings seem to be of this type. However I'm wondering if you're including tyres with asymmetric tread patterns? That is to say where the pattern is different on one side compared to the other - often a "finer" pattern on the outside shoulder compared to a much more "blocky" pattern on the inner. These types of tyre will be marked "inside and "outside on their sidewall and must be fitted with the outside marking facing out. However they are not directional so may be fitted anywhere on the vehicle. Many of the better tyres on offer today feature this type of tread and it does offer performance advantages, in fact I go out of my way to prioritize them when buying. Truly directional tyres are designed to move water from the middle of the tread to the outside and must be used the right way round - so, once mounted on the wheel can only be used on the side of the vehicle intended. They work much as tractor driving wheels do where the tread moves mud to the outside allowing better grip. Fitted the wrong way round they channel mud into the middle of the tread and greatly reduce grip.

It's also true that many of the highest performance tyres are directional and probably this type of design gives the manufacturer the scope to produce a less compromised and very high performance spec suitable for "super cars" and the like. Pandas tootle along very happily on good midrange spec tyres!

I have also heard it said that stick with one direction of roation as the carcas may be weakened more by rotating side to side and changing the direction wheels rotate. I have rotated tyres and swapped them about to ensure they wear out in pairs and been doing this for pushing 2 million miles without noting anything at all either way, so I think its not applicable to normal road cars, maybe formula 1?? Ive been swapping wheels form car to car for years as well to balance wear on tyres and use up the last one of a set after a puncture. Company cars have had singles fitted in any position and none of this or even the make made a huge difference. Really cheap tyres are scary with much less grip, and Im generally obsessed with having tyres with matching treads, let alone makers on all 4 wheels. Thinking about it I suspect all this is guff perpetrated by big tyre companies. Common sense says have matching tyres on each axle for even braking where the science is in all these other 'suggestions it would be really enlightening to know. Modern tyres are mostly very good and Michelin now claim their perform as well worn as new. If this is true it suggests all these things are old wives tales??

 

[The Panda Nut]

Thanks, Herts Hillhopper, I'll try a little more pressure in the L/H (downcamber) tire. We drive on the left here in New Zealand too.

Very sensible side to drive on. I approve!