Technical VVT Cam Sprocket Help Required

[cskerry87]

Hi everybody, thanks again for your input last week.

The plot thickens...

So my new VVT pulley arrived and the replacement process went without a hitch. That central bolt was damn tight, as expected, but it came out with a bit of persuasion from a long bar. I refitted the new belt as per Andy Monty's guide, using the locking tools to make sure that the timing was correct. I removed the plugs to help crank the engine by hand, and rotated twice, four, and six times, every time making sure that the timing tools still fit. As far as I can see, the timing is spot on.

I rebuilt it all, put the key in the ignition... won't start.

It's turning over really well but no sign of firing. The fuel was very low so I've put about 9 litres into it from a jerry can, still no dice. I've been back and double checked that I reconnected all the electrical connectors (had to disconnect a few in the process of removing the cam cover). I even fitted a spare battery, but it's still the same.

My only idea at the moment is that when I removed the plugs I stupidly didn't make note of the HT lead arrangement, but I'm quite sure it just went 1:1, ie. plug 1 was connected to the first (left-hand) HT output on the coil pack, and so on. If anybody can correct me on this and tell me the actual order that'd be nice. Does anyone know how I can check the health of the coil pack? I've seen some vague guides about testing continuity & resistance with a multimeter, but I don't have a clue what the pinout is on the connector, so I wouldn't know what I'm testing.

One other thing is that when I was tightening the crank pulley after refitting, I thought at the time that I may have disturbed the crank position sensor, but looking at it now it seems to be solidly in place with no play, and the connector is connected. Also when turning the engine over, the RPM meter rises to 200 - 500 rpm, which I'm lead to believe suggests the sensor is working.

Any other ideas would be welcome! I'm on the verge of getting it recovered to a local garage, I'm sick of the sight of it now to be honest.

Thanks

Chris

 

[jackwhoo]

Check for spark at spark plug.
Remove one plug , attach ht lead to plug rest plug on metal part of engine (or clamp spark plug in jump lead, other end or lead connected to a good ground point on engine)
Crank engine on starter see if good healthy spark at plug.

Don't beat yourself up it had misfire after you had done belt correctly the first time.

Does your car have an impact cut out switch you may have knocked?

I agree rev counter needle moving is good sign .

Did you reconnect cam position sensor?

 

[cskerry87]

Thanks for the reply

I have checked for spark on cylinder 1 (the only plug accessible when the air filter housing is fitted), and I'm getting a good spark.

If I'm correct, the cam sensor on this Euro 5 engine is at the gearbox end of the head, fixed into the head with a screw. I remember re-fitting the sensor but can't be 100% sure that I reconnected the electrical connector. If I get the time I'll try and go back and check that. Would that cause a nonstart?

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Just to say I got your PM but decided to answer hear as others might have ideas too.

As I started reading your account my mind immediately jumped to the crank sensor but as the rev counter is indicating I would agree that this seems to be evidence of it working. I like the above idea of checking you've got a spark which would definitely confirm this line of investigation. If it was just leads on wrong plugs you would expect to get the occasional backfire etc. By the way, if you've been cranking it a lot and it's still injecting fuel, it's likely the cat will now be flooded with fuel which, sorry to say, might cause damage to the cat's matrix if she fires up?

If the plugs are sparking I'd be checking to see if the fuel pump is running next (or maybe just do that anyway as you can usually hear it run when you switch the ignition on) It'll stop after a few seconds if you don't crank so don't think there's something wrong with that.

If you've got sparks and a pump which runs things get more complicated. Reading any codes posted might give a clue? but also checking fuel rail pressure and I'd unplug, inspect and plug back in the ECU plug/s as they could have been disturbed while you were working with the cam cover off?

If none of that works, I'm out of ideas at this time, but still thinking about it. do come back as you may say something which sparks up this old brain.

 

[jackwhoo]

Thanks for the reply

I have checked for spark on cylinder 1 (the only plug accessible when the air filter housing is fitted), and I'm getting a good spark.

If I'm correct, the cam sensor on this Euro 5 engine is at the gearbox end of the head, fixed into the head with a screw. I remember re-fitting the sensor but can't be 100% sure that I reconnected the electrical connector. If I get the time I'll try and go back and check that. Would that cause a nonstart?

That's great you getting a spark.

Disconnected cam shaft position sensor would cause no start.
I don't know where it's located on your engine, but suspect you do , ha ha

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Thanks for the reply

I have checked for spark on cylinder 1 (the only plug accessible when the air filter housing is fitted), and I'm getting a good spark.

If I'm correct, the cam sensor on this Euro 5 engine is at the gearbox end of the head, fixed into the head with a screw. I remember re-fitting the sensor but can't be 100% sure that I reconnected the electrical connector. If I get the time I'll try and go back and check that. Would that cause a nonstart?

I'd have thought you might get at least a backfire but it wouldn't run because the ECU wouldn't know which stroke the pistons were on in relation to the cam position? so maybe it wouldn't run but would it stop sparking altogether? not sure. Certainly worth a check though.

 

[jackwhoo]

I was going to suggest listening for fuel pump next as per Jock.

 

[jackwhoo]

You may have a cam shaft sensor/solenoid for the vvt at cam belt end of engine.
Check that too

 

[cskerry87]

Chaps, thanks for your help but I've fixed it!

I realised I'd not taken notice of the crank pulley alignment notch when refitting this time. Checked it and low and behold, it was 30 degrees out of alignment. So presumably I would've been getting my spark at the wrong time.

Quickly corrected it and checked without the alternator belt fitted, and she fired up first time! I'll go back later and torque the bolts & fit the alt belt.

Thanks again, and I'll keep you posted on the misfire issue.

 

[jackwhoo]

I'd have thought you might get at least a backfire but it wouldn't run because the ECU wouldn't know which stroke the pistons were on in relation to the cam position? so maybe it wouldn't run but would it stop sparking altogether? not sure. Certainly worth a check though.

I agree but it's worth checking as you say.
Plus this one may have two cam position sensors one sensing vvt operation.

I would be giving it a whiff of something volatile directly into throttle housing .

 

[jackwhoo]

Chaps, thanks for your help but I've fixed it!

I realised I'd not taken notice of the crank pulley alignment notch when refitting this time. Checked it and low and behold, it was 30 degrees out of alignment. So presumably I would've been getting my spark at the wrong time.

Quickly corrected it and checked without the alternator belt fitted, and she fired up first time! I'll go back later and torque the bolts & fit the alt belt.

Thanks again, and I'll keep you posted on the misfire issue.

How did you do that using special crank locking tool after lining up the line on crank pulley directly with centre of vvt pulley?

Vitally important ..... crank locked , belt on and tensioned , camshaft locked only then tighten cam pulley bolt.

 

[cskerry87]

Not sure I follow...

Just to clarify, I'm talking about the crankshaft pulley, which is mounted to the face of the crank sprocket and drives the alternator via the ribbed belt. It has teeth around the edge for the crank position sensor to read.

So by the time you come to refit it, the timing tools have been removed and the cam belt covers are back on.

There's a small dowel on the face of the crank sprocket which fits into a small hole on the pulley, to make sure you get it aligned correctly and the crank position sensor's measurements are correctly referenced.

 

[jackwhoo]

Not sure I follow...

Just to clarify, I'm talking about the crankshaft pulley, which is mounted to the face of the crank sprocket and drives the alternator via the ribbed belt. It has teeth around the edge for the crank position sensor to read.

So by the time you come to refit it, the timing tools have been removed and the cam belt covers are back on.

There's a small dowel on the face of the crank sprocket which fits into a small hole on the pulley, to make sure you get it aligned correctly and the crank position sensor's measurements are correctly referenced.

Oh thank God I was really worried for you , my mistake mixing up pulley and sprocket.

Huge well done

Yes the little pip on crank sprocket very important. Well spotted very easy to miss.

again well done

 

[cskerry87]

Phew you had me a bit worried there too! Haha

I'm really happy I thought of it because I was on the verge of calling for a recovery wagon and I've never been defeated by a job before!

Oh thank God I was really worried for you , my mistake mixing up pulley and sprocket.

Huge well done

Yes the little pip on crank sprocket very important. Well spotted very easy to miss.

again well done

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Oh thank God I was really worried for you , my mistake mixing up pulley and sprocket.

Huge well done

Yes the little pip on crank sprocket very important. Well spotted very easy to miss.

again well done

So pleased to hear your ordeal is over with a successful outcome. It's amazing how these relatively simple things can catch us out isn't it?

When I was doing the belts on our Panda and my boy's Punto, I don't remember for sure which it was although I think it was the Panda, I was puzzled by how the belt seemed to be wanting to run nearer the back of the pulleys rather than in the middle (since discovered they're all like this) So I decided to start her up - after all the basic checks had been done - with the belt guards off and observe how the belt was running. Turned the key, No start! examined everything, Ok I've got no drive to the alternator, maybe that'll throw some sort of DTC but it shouldn't kill it surely? Tried again, still no start! What the ----? Oh dear, Phonic wheel pulley not fitted! 'course it won't start, poor thing doesn't even know the crank is rotating! Felt very foolish indeed, glad to be working on my own!

Again many congrats on persevering to the end