Vortex Gens...! (This one works...)

[Anonymous]

Re: Re: Re: Really...?

Its really simple physics.

Air has mass, in order to impart a spin on the air in your manifold with one of these devices you need energy from somewhere. (newtons first law states you need a force to make something move in a new direction and his second law states how much)

The energy comes from your engine sucking the air into the manifold. Rather than sucking nice clean flowing air in its got to spin the air aswell. You are actually taking energy OUT of the system with one of these devices.

Here is a simple question, whats going to be easier?
Blowing down a pipe with nothing at the end
or
Blowing down the same size pipe but with little fins in it to make the air spin

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Re: Really...?

i was thinking about this, the air in the inlet manifold doesnt flow continuously, as the ports are closed a lot of the time.

Perhaps this vortex device keeps spinning, helping to get the air pushed in quicker when the ports open. Or maybe it has the effect of stabilising the airflow in the inlet.

There are SO many factors at work in an engine that i think its impossible to say whether this device works or not, unless you have tested it and had that test verified by a rolling road (BEFORE and AFTER it was fitted).

I wish a decent magazine would test all these add on gimmicks (ecotex, vortex, k&n) etc in an unbiased scientific manner, and tell us if they are any good. Max power have done this before but it was far from scientific, and in general the shinier or chromier the component the better a review it got!!!

rant over
Jonathan

 

[Tom]

Re: Re: Re: Really...?

Wohoo!! Someone else has seen the light!

Most inlet manifolds rely on the air stopping. As the air is sucked into the engine the air in the manifold runner (which is very long on the 1.6) is moving quite fast and has quite alot of momentum.

When the valves close, this moving air wants to keep moving forwards but can't so it basically piles up behind the valve for a short time. The idea is to tune the length of the manifold such that pressure of this piled up air is at a maximum the next time the valve opens. They work very well to improve midrange torque but only over about 500-1000 RPM or so.

Vaxhaul made a really silly trick manifold where the shockwave from one valve closing travelled up the runner, across the plenumn and down the opposite runner. CCC found that putting on a 'sport' manifold dropped alot of power from the engine. Someone spent toooo much time designing that manifold!!

 

[Boorock]

My Last post on this topic !

I haven't changed my inbox Green cotton air filter or cleaned it either...

Tested the new sparks for along time & installed the Cyclon-ish gadget after....

So U can say that it was "Ceteris - Paribus" (under the same conditions...)

The energy lost during the spinning action is re-gained as time & power because of the light pressure created in the intake manifold & air hose.

Also a vortex will allow more flow than any non-modified pipe...! Ask the construction engineers for this.

I'm not trying to get the attention. It was just sharing...

 

[Barakka]

Tricky....

Oooo this is a bit contraversial isn't it..

Boorock, don't worry about it one of the strengths of this forum is that every time someone posts something technical it will get examined in detail.

Many companies are making these devices, or devices that claim to work in the same way... Ecotec, SprialMax, Cyclone, Tornado Air etc. etc.

Many manufacturers (as you said) are producing similar components for new engines.. like the Chevy Vortec engines...

But it seems that on the whole they tend to be engines used for strenuous applications like 4x4's, Buses, Trucks, Boats where optimum fuel/air mix is required to get the most power.

They are also being incorporated into vehicles using alternative fuels (e.g. propane where it doesn't want to mix as well)..
SpiralMax use on Propane motorbike

Many manufacturers are quick to quote statistics of improvement in performance/economy/emissions etc. but none seem to be from tests under controlled environments... the best I could find was a review of three vehicles running the Tornado Devices

The reviewer tested emissions, power, and economy before and after and found little or no improvement in any at all, even though the drivers said it felt more powerful etc.

In the end it's down to you and your experiences that count, a few people on here use the Ecotec valves and think they are good (although probably wouldn't post it ) It may be just your perception, or it may work brilliantly (after all I would imagine the HGT's engine would probably benefit most from a better mix), but don't let this posting experience put you off letting us know how you get on.

Barakka

PS - before anyone flames me for my technical knowledge - my engine "know-how" goes as far as finding my way to the mechanics garage - LOL !

 

[Tom]

Re: Tricky....

The thing with the Chevy Vortec engine is that the vortex is created at the inlet valve making the air swirl into the cylinder, NOT 12" or more earlier in the manifold. (in the case of the 1.6 bravo, its about 24" from throttle body to inlet valve!)

By the time the air has done several 90deg turns, sat around for a while in the manifold etc.. its not going to have any swirl left from the cyclone device.

 

[Kev]

As far as i know

As far as i know, polished ports are better in a car with a forced intake. As the polished surface makes little difference. I used to race karts with motor bike engines. We got a two stroke 100cc yamaha to rev to 17000 and do 3-60 in about 3.5 sec - that had polished ports but they where also oversized - re-angled and all of my compression ratios were changed. The crank was stuffed and moddified to take a direct drive, the ignition was changed for a racing one - the plug where changed to racing one - the exhaust was changed - guess - 4 a racing one, the carb - 4 a racing one - the head was skimmed and ballanced - the bearings and seals on the crank 4 racing ones - the piston 4 a racing one and the stroke shortened by 2.5 mm (to encorperate the smaller piston).And finnaly the reed block and reeds for racing ones, which involved moving the carb to go in dirrect to the crank case and moddifying the existing port to be used as a transfer (As the block was too large for the existing space!) But to polish ports on a standard car seems silly to me - if there not already polished leave them as they are - it will make so little difference anyway - and id also like to point out that if a product says 10 hp increase its normally 1 or 2 - exageration is the key to bussiness success!

Kev