General Viewing Fiat 500 Pop - MOT shows rear sub frame damage but not serious

[skyrat]

I am looking at the following car for my 17 year old daughter tomorrow...

https://www.motors.co.uk/car-68322367/

The recent MOT (see attachd) has an advisory stating...

Monitor and repair if necessary (advisories):
• Rear Sub-frame damaged but not seriously weakened (5.3.3 (b) (i))
• Nearside Rear Upper Shock absorbers has a slightly worn bush (5.3.2 (c))

What would be the typical cost to repair the damaged rear sub frame ?

I don't know if the cambelt has been replaced either...

- when should the cam belt be replaced for this vehicle ?
- what would be the typical cost to replace the cambelt (and water pump) ?

 

[varesecrazy]

Thats pretty old..

14 years on the road.. the rear suspension mounts could well be seriously corroded

At 2009 it would make it beyond economic repair

Check thread by
@morgandovex

 

[skyrat]

Thats pretty old..

14 years on the road.. the rear suspension mounts could well be seriously corroded

At 2009 it would make it beyond economic repair

Thats worrying, are you saying its not a good buy and to avoid ?

I usually do regular maintenacne myself on cars, but it all depends on how much the parts cost and how difficult the job is. I've never replaced a rear sub frame though

 

[John202020]

Wonder what it means rear sub frame, the tear axle bolts straight to the body, there's no rear subframe?
Now if it means the rear axle that's different I replaced ours not too hard for a competent DIY mechanic, if you go for the car make sure everything works like the ac rear wiper, boot release handle 2keys?
My main worry would be the rear beam axle known to rust to the point of the spring pans breaking off! Listen for front suspension noise, it will make some, likely need totally replacing

 

[John202020]

Cam belt/pump £350, clutch state?

Parts are generally quite cheap and are straightforward to replace our car is a 09 bought at 6/7 years old I spent £1500 on parts to restore it, few years ago rear axle, check the sump! Known to rust through

Mot history suggests a person not bothered about looking after it or a young driver who simply didn't understand what driving entails

 

[Ralf S.]

It depends on the price of the car and how much you can DIY to determine whether it's one to buy or to avoid.

The rear beam can and does get scabby with dirt and rust.. the one on our Rasputin looked like it was recovered from the Titanic, but after brushing off the layers of mud, dirt and scabs of rust, it's actually in good condition. I scraped/brushed off all the rust, jet washed it and then sprayed it with some sheep dip (https://www.lanoguard.co.uk) and it looks good now.

The main thing to check is the spring pans... these are thinner metal than the twist beam part... and if they corrode too far they can perforate/start to tear.. and there's no way back. As above, a whole new beam is about £140 so if you can do the labour, it's not prohibitive, if the car is otherwise good value.

The dampers are a 20 minute job and if you buy the car, I would change those while you're cleaning up the beam. Cheap ones are £30 a pair (potentially "change every couple of years" quality?) and Bilstein are £150. Kayaba at £100 a pair are reasonable quality (I've fitted a few and never had to replace one) so might be a good longer-term option.

Looking at the car's history of MOT Fails.. it looks not too bad.. but fails for dodgy tyres and blown bulbs is never a good look... so assume it's had the bare minimum of servicing. Budget for a full cam-belt (including water-pump) and oil service unless you have cast iron proof that it was done more recently than when they built the car. The book says 72,000 miles... or 5 years, regardless of mileage. If yours was replaced anytime before 2019, I would probably still change it now.


Ralf S.

 

[skyrat]

Thanks all, was going to look this afternoon but it’s been sold

 

[varesecrazy]

Thanks all, was going to look this afternoon but it’s been sold

Did you view that Twinair ?

 

[skyrat]

Did you view that Twinair ?

Yeh it was tatty and a strange setup so walked away

 

[varesecrazy]

Yeh it was tatty and a strange setup so walked away

Unfortunately so many have been bought as 18/21 birthday presents.

Some cars will have seen 5 learners..


Mine was end of PCP.. above average miles

But one owner and 3.5 years old for £6k

It will do me..

The thought of £3k for something 10+ years old seems daft..

Unless its REALLY cared for

 

[skyrat]

Unfortunately so many have been bought as 18/21 birthday presents.

Some cars will have seen 5 learners..


Mine was end of PCP.. above average miles

But one owner and 3.5 years old for £6k

It will do me..

The thought of £3k for something 10+ years old seems daft..

Unless its REALLY cared for

Unfortunately my daughters limit is £3k max

Her insurance alone will be almost that (with a black box) and she has only saved enough for the car but not insurance

Cost of living increases have been applied to EVERYTHING except income

 

[jrkitching]

Wonder what it means rear sub frame

That's MOT-speak for a corroded rear twist beam. I think you'd be lucky to find any 10+ yr old 500/Panda with a good enough beam not to warrant an MOT advisory; much depends on the discretion of the individual tester. Most will quite rightly play safe; if the beam fails in service, you'll lose the complete wheel assembly and it'll rip out the brake lines on that side, though it'll come to a stop fairly quickly with a wheel missing. You'll definitely be out of control; if this happened on the fast lane of a motorway, the consequences could be disastrous.

At least one member on here has had a wheel collapse for this reason.

An aftermarket replacement twist beam is cheap enough; £150 + delivery from IM axles; but this masks the difficulty involved in rectifying this issue.

If you can't fit it yourself, or don't want to (and I certainly wouldn't), then the labour cost will be many times this. Even if you do it yourself, you'll need to replace additional parts, and will likely have to make up a complete set of rear brake lines. You can expect to spend many hours lying under the car in an uncomfortable position battling corroded fastenings.

Unfortunately my daughters limit is £3k max

In the current market, realistically that's only going to buy what is basically a life-expired car. Anything at that price point could easily cost you the same again in first year repairs, unless you are capable and willing to do most or all of the work yourself.

Most 10+ yr old small cars on dealer forecourts are little better than scrap. Folks with the good ones generally aren't selling just now.

It might actually work out cheaper to buy a new one on a pcp deal, but don't underestimate the magnitude or duration of the commitment.

 

[jrkitching]

The thought of £3k for something 10+ years old seems daft..

I'd agree, but that's what you have to pay now. The impending ULEZ changes have made a bad situation even worse.

and £14,740 for a new base model Panda seems equally daft.

Unless its REALLY cared for

And if you had one like that, why would you sell it?

 

[John202020]

It's a bit odd, looks like someone specd it up at purchase it's a pop but has ac and a glass roof but no steering controls?, make a offer of 2500 only if you can replace many of the parts yourself?
With some work the car should last another 5-6 years I'd say

 

[jrkitching]

The OP says it's already been sold.

 

[skyrat]

That's MOT-speak for a corroded rear twist beam. I think you'd be lucky to find any 10+ yr old 500/Panda with a good enough beam not to warrant an MOT advisory; much depends on the discretion of the individual tester. Most will quite rightly play safe; if the beam fails in service, you'll lose the complete wheel assembly and it'll rip out the brake lines on that side, though it'll come to a stop fairly quickly with a wheel missing. You'll definitely be out of control; if this happened on the fast lane of a motorway, the consequences could be disastrous.

At least one member on here has had a wheel collapse for this reason.

An aftermarket replacement twist beam is cheap enough; £150 + delivery from IM axles; but this masks the difficulty involved in rectifying this issue.

If you can't fit it yourself, or don't want to (and I certainly wouldn't), then the labour cost will be many times this. Even if you do it yourself, you'll need to replace additional parts, and will likely have to make up a complete set of rear brake lines. You can expect to spend many hours lying under the car in an uncomfortable position battling corroded fastenings.



In the current market, realistically that's only going to buy what is basically a life-expired car. Anything at that price point could easily cost you the same again in first year repairs, unless you are capable and willing to do most or all of the work yourself.

Most 10+ yr old small cars on dealer forecourts are little better than scrap. Folks with the good ones generally aren't selling just now.

It might actually work out cheaper to buy a new one on a pcp deal, but don't underestimate the magnitude or duration of the commitment.

Thanks but I would never do PCP again, it’s a rip off. It’s like renting a house instead of buying with a repayment mortgage.

The example you gave is £200 a month for 4 years but with a very small mileage limit of 6k a year and then you have to find another £6k for the final payment. Plus new cars lose thousands as soon as it’s driven off the forecourt.

So I always buy used now and run it into the ground

Even with a professional engineering degree and 30 years of work experience I can’t afford decent newish cars, I’m in the wrong job!

 

[bugsymike]

I work on the theory only spend what you can afford to throw away, as car values generally only go one way, it's worked for me since 1969

 

[The Panda Nut]

That's MOT-speak for a corroded rear twist beam. I think you'd be lucky to find any 10+ yr old 500/Panda with a good enough beam not to warrant an MOT advisory; much depends on the discretion of the individual tester. Most will quite rightly play safe; if the beam fails in service, you'll lose the complete wheel assembly and it'll rip out the brake lines on that side, though it'll come to a stop fairly quickly with a wheel missing. You'll definitely be out of control; if this happened on the fast lane of a motorway, the consequences could be disastrous.

At least one member on here has had a wheel collapse for this reason.

An aftermarket replacement twist beam is cheap enough; £150 + delivery from IM axles; but this masks the difficulty involved in rectifying this issue.

If you can't fit it yourself, or don't want to (and I certainly wouldn't), then the labour cost will be many times this. Even if you do it yourself, you'll need to replace additional parts, and will likely have to make up a complete set of rear brake lines. You can expect to spend many hours lying under the car in an uncomfortable position battling corroded fastenings.



In the current market, realistically that's only going to buy what is basically a life-expired car. Anything at that price point could easily cost you the same again in first year repairs, unless you are capable and willing to do most or all of the work yourself.

Most 10+ yr old small cars on dealer forecourts are little better than scrap. Folks with the good ones generally aren't selling just now.

It might actually work out cheaper to buy a new one on a pcp deal, but don't underestimate the magnitude or duration of the commitment.

I passed our Seat Leon to my older daughter many years ago. It was in pristine condition and 100% mechanically sound. Over many years I have grown to hate it as a slow but steady stream of things have needed attention and about 5 years ago I worked out it would have been cheaper to buy a new car on PCP. Its just as a first car thats a risk if it gets damaged due to inexperience. Daughter 1 still has the Seat 14 years on and I have little to do now other than supervise repairers - car is 21 years old now. But the ideal of going new on PCP may be worth a long hard look. You have the benefit of new tyres brakes etc.

 

[jrkitching]

Its just as a first car thats a risk if it gets damaged due to inexperience.

That's a good point, and well worth taking into account.

about 5 years ago I worked out it would have been cheaper to buy a new car

It is, but only if you keep it long enough to get the value out of it.

I've tried various strategies, but what has worked for me is for the past 35 years or so is to negotiate a keen price to buy a basic but decent new car for cash, then look after it and keep it until the cost of maintenance outweighs the cost of starting again. That way, you're depreciating the cost over many years, and with careful driving and good maintenance, repair bills will be low.

The current Panda, bought new for a little under £6700 in 2010 (about 27% off list at the time), has cost me less than £50 in non-service parts in 13 years/110,000 miles. That works out at a shade under £520/yr in depreciation and repairs combined. And that's assuming it's worth nothing now (which obviously it isn't), and that I don't get any further use from it.

This year, it cost me about £220 to get it through the MOT (new exhaust, a pair of droplinks and a pair of rear shocks), but that's the first significant non-service work I've had to do on it. By next year, it'll also likely need a pair of front wishbones, but I know the rest of the car is basically sound.

The key point to take away is that there's a world of difference between a multi-owner car you've bought off a forecourt, and a car of similar age that you've owned and maintained yourself from new.

The biggest risk with this strategy is if the car gets written off in the middle years, you'll get much less as a settlement than the value you'd have got if you had kept using it.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Thanks but I would never do PCP again, it’s a rip off. It’s like renting a house instead of buying with a repayment mortgage.

The example you gave is £200 a month for 4 years but with a very small mileage limit of 6k a year and then you have to find another £6k for the final payment. Plus new cars lose thousands as soon as it’s driven off the forecourt.

So I always buy used now and run it into the ground

Even with a professional engineering degree and 30 years of work experience I can’t afford decent newish cars, I’m in the wrong job!

Join the club. New cars seem now to be for the fairly well off now. If you just doing OK or even quite well its now a non starter. Trouble is that used cars are now also silly money. We have one we bought used which is now very low milage and one we bought new which Im am hoping will outlast me! PCP was once a possibility but I probably agree now its again only for the very well off. The cost of a car cannot dominate your family finances. I think we will see some big casualties amongst car makers before very long.