Technical Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

[Davren]

re: Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

When it comes to refitting later on, any advice/tips on refilling the boots with grease – I’ve got a tub of graphite? grease in the garage which says it’s suitable for CV joints, but looks kind of black/grey in colour while what’s already in looks more yellowy/brownie coloured?

The black graphite grease you have is probably Molybdenum Disulphide grease, which is suitable for most CV joints at the hub end of the driveshaft. For the star joint in you pictures (located at the gearbox end of the driveshaft) Fiat specify Petronas Tutela MRM ZERO grease, which is a yellow/brown colour as you describe. I think it's a lithium soap based grease.

If you haven't lost or contaminated any of the existing grease, then you could just reassemble the joint as it is. If any has been lost or contaminated, then you will need to wash out the joint and refill it with 85 grams of MRM ZERO. Unfortunately, as I found out a few years ago, MRM ZERO is very difficult to locate.
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[tessiedog]

re: Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

Unfortunately there was a loss of grease, probably enough to need to replace it. I wasn't too bothered at the time and didn't make much effort to stop it cos i didn't think that there would any problem sourcing new stuff. Is there any equivalent more readily available, do we know? On that basis might need to think about making sure that the drivers side driveshaft remains intact when i pull the gb away?

 

[Davren]

re: Valeo clutch & Gearbox replacement

Is there any equivalent more readily available, do we know?

There probably is, but I don't know of one.

When I needed some a few years ago, I phoned Petronas (01727 811213), who make Tutela and Selenia products. They gave me a list of companies that had bought MRM ZERO from them. Northgate Garage, (a Fiat dealer in Canterbury 01227 828200) posted me 2 tubes that arrived the next day.
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[tessiedog]

Thanks Davren
The stuff you've done in the name of car maintenance its amazing!

 

[Ralf S.]

Your fitness fanatic son will be handy when refitting the gearbox since, you'll have to lift it somehow and then rotate it slightly clockwise to get it to line up. The beast wants to go on about 15 degrees too far anti-clockwise if you lift in on a trolley jack.

I used the burly lad from next door.. although he had to crawl under the car to get enough beef on it to lift it... the *****!

The bell-housing isn't too bad. It should survive the few inches of drop between the trolley-jack and the ground, once you've lowered it. Some layers of cardboard help cushion it, even if you don't need it to survive.

Once it's on the ground you'll need to lift the car more to get the gearbox out of the wheel arch. If (like me) you use your trolley jack to support the gearbox then the car has to be set quite low (on stands) so that your jack can reach the gearbox.

Then, once the gearbox is on the floor, you need your jack to lift the car higher, otherwise the gearbox won't fit underneath the sub-frame, bumper, airbox .. what have you... for you to pull it out. The cardboard comes in handy now since you can pull the gearbox out like a sledge. If it's just on the ground it's more difficult to manoeuvre it.

Space is the biggest problem... so a 3-tonne jack is better than a 2-tonne. They tend to have a higher lifting range and the higher you can lift the car the easier it is to find a way out for the gearbox through the wheel arch. I managed with a 2-tonne.

Take the n/s cup out when the box' is out. The o/s cup stays attached to the diff' and it won't trouble you normally. Put the cup back after you have re-fitted the gearbox - it's just one less thing to snag on the chassis or bodywork as you thread the gearbox through the limited space available.

I did a bit of poking around when I replaced my tripoid spiders. The grease has to be an EP (Lithium) and NLGI 0 (which relates to its viscosity - "normal" general purpose grease is an NLGI 2 for example). There were various types "available" from the usual suspects - Shell, Petronas, etc. - until you actually try to find someone who has any.

In the end I found Castrol Sheerol from these fellas. 500g is plenty if you use 85g (say 1/5 of the tub) each side.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GENUINE-...m=391810653889&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

The bolts only have to be 8.8 high tensile. If they are (from memory) fine-pitch then it's impossible to find one that is not 8.8. They'll have "8.8" moulded onto the head. One of these can support 640kg before it starts to stretch and it won't let go until 800kg is put through it... which is half the weight of the whole car. It's plenty for a track rod end, etc. Grease the threads up a bit before you fit.. it lives in the wheel arch and it's normal steel so it'll be easier to remove next time if it's a little protected.


Ralf S.

 

[Davren]

you'll have to lift it somehow and then rotate it slightly clockwise to get it to line up. The beast wants to go on about 15 degrees too far anti-clockwise if you lift in on a trolley jack.

Had the same problem when replacing the clutches on both of my JTDs. The contours of the underside of the gearbox meant it wouldn't balance on the jack pad, or be at the correct angle to refit. I made up a wooden jig that gave the gearbox a flat bottom surface at the correct angle to refit. Pictures below are of the JTD gearboxes, so will look different to the 1.4 version.

The JTD gearbox weighs 45Kg, whereas the 1.4 one is only 30Kg. So you may be able to lift it in without the jig.
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[tessiedog]

Hi
So have done almost everything in Davren's instructions up to the point of being just about ready to unbolt and pull away the box. Only thing I've still to do is disconnect the gear selector, have unclipped the linkage but not sure how to disconnect the wee balljoint (first pic) - any ideas, please?
Thinking ahead to the next step, and being mindful of all of the advice given on this thread, would appreciate some advice on the following - 1. Order of unbolting (after supporting the box and engine) - mounting on left hand side then bolts securing through the bell housing and lastly the gearbox mount in the middle - or does the order not matter much?; 2. is it 5 or 6 bolts in the bell housing - think it's 5 (two bottom side, one either side, roughly and one top side?), but not entirely 100% sure?); 3. unbolting the left mounting - is this just a case of undoing the top nut?; and 4. unbolting the gbox mount - undoing this big bolt shown in second pic?
Cheers folks.
Stuart

 

[tessiedog]

.... and the pics.......

 

[Ralf S.]

The ball joints just pop off. Use a long screwdriver to lever them off. The bush is nylon and the ball is metal.. so just a bit of force needed. They push back on.

The bolts order doesn't really matter since the whole shebang is held up by the output shaft so even if you had no bolts in there, the gearbox won't drop onto the floor.

From memory I think there are 3 bolts and 2 nuts... plus "the one hidden one that I've probably forgotten about". Just work your hand all around the bell-housing and count them as you loosen them all off.

You'll need to disconnect the starter motor too, if you haven't done that already.

Remove the nuts and the awkward bolts underneath/round the back first and then the ones right in front of your face last.

When you're ready you should be able to just (hefty) tug the bell-housing away from the motor about 8cm and then it'll be clear. Pull it directly away from the engine in line with the output shaft.

Since the gearbox is supported by the shaft, if/when you put a jack under the gearbox, don't put too much pressure on the jack. It has to be the right height to support the weight of the gearbox but not exerting pressure to lift it, otherwise it'll be tight to remove.

For the gearbox mount I removed the two nyloc nuts in the photo (above the cleaner silver painted bolt in your photo). Otherwise you'll have to wrestle the bracket out of the gearbox mount "fork". I think removing the bolts leaves the bracket attached to the mount so that the box can just pull away from it (when you yank it out into the wheel arch direction).



Ralf S.

 

[Ralf S.]

While I remember... now is a good time to order a new clutch and Concentric Slave Cylinder unless you know yours are brand new.

CSC is a classic "only changed when it's broken" part and it'd be a pity if your old one packs up a few weeks from now and you have to do this job all over again.

If you want an idea where yours is, my original factory fitted CSC (1.9 JTD) packed up at 120k.. The factory clutch plate itself was fairly worn out too but could have gone longer.


Ralf S.

 

[Davren]

So have done almost everything in Davren's instructions up to the point of being just about ready to unbolt and pull away the box. Only thing I've still to do is disconnect the gear selector, have unclipped the linkage but not sure how to disconnect the wee balljoint (first pic) - any ideas, please?

There should be a U shaped clip holding each of the 2 outer cables to a bracket on the gearbox. Remove the clips, then lever the cups at the ends of the inner cables off of their ball joints with a large screwdriver. Then remove the outer cables from the bracket. You may also need to remove the bracket.

1. Order of unbolting (after supporting the box and engine) - mounting on left hand side then bolts securing through the bell housing and lastly the gearbox mount in the middle - or does the order not matter much?

There should be 2 small (8 or 10mm spanner size) bolts holding the bottom of a thin, (probably black painted) guard panel between the engine and gearbox. Remove these 2 bolts before unbolting the gearbox. (You don't want to be under the car looking for them after the gearbox is unbolted).

Once the engine and gearbox are securely supported, and the 2 small bolts are removed, it doesn't matter what order you remove the gearbox to engine bolts. There may be some bolts and 2 studs, in which case, loosen the nuts on the 2 studs, but leave removing the those nuts until you're ready to remove the gearbox.

Make absolutely sure that the engine is securely supported. You may need to wiggle the gearbox about to remove it. If the engine falls off it's support, there's likely to be considerable damage to various engine ancillaries.

Most hydraulic jacks will creep down over time, so don't use one to support the engine for any length of time. However, you may need to adjust the height of the engine to enable to gearbox to be removed. Whatever you use to support the engine, leave space for a hydraulic jack to be used to adjust the engine height.

2. is it 5 or 6 bolts in the bell housing - think it's 5 (two bottom side, one either side, roughly and one top side?), but not entirely 100% sure?)

Sorry.... I've no idea how many there are on the 1.4 engine. Apart from the 2 small bolts at the bottom of the guard panel, they should all be visible.
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[Davren]

While I remember... now is a good time to order a new clutch and Concentric Slave Cylinder unless you know yours are brand new.

Stuart only needs a new clutch disc, and to clean the oil off of his already new clutch cover plate.

The 1.4 engine doesn't have a concentric slave cylinder.
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[tessiedog]

Hi guys
I know that we don't really tolerate bad language on the forum, but there's no other wat you say it - but the stuff you get on here is f****** brilliant!
I've got everything pulled away to unbolt the box except the wee ball joint on the gear selector (got the linkages unclipped ok and unbolted and set aside the starter). Just wasn't sure how the ball joint came away and didn't to trash it by forcing it some way that it isn't made to go.
Looks like will get a chance to pull out the box this wknd, looking forward to it ........?

 

[Mytheroo]

.......

For the gearbox mount I removed the two nyloc nuts in the photo (above the cleaner silver painted bolt in your photo). Otherwise you'll have to wrestle the bracket out of the gearbox mount "fork". I think removing the bolts leaves the bracket attached to the mount so that the box can just pull away from it (when you yank it out into the wheel arch direction).



Ralf S.

Maybe not relevant for this job, but I just changed my rear mount and after removing the "silver" bolt and the bush bolt I was really struggling to pull the old mount out.......until I realised I can just push it out towards the back of the car!!

 

[tessiedog]

Hi folks
Finally got the box out (it's only taken about 6 weeks......). Some photos attached of the insides - is there anything there which would offer a clue to any of you guys with more experienced eyes on whether it's an engine oil or gearbox oil leak?
Cheers

 

[Ralf S.]

It looks more like engine oil to me.

There's been a fair bit of leakage. Gear oil has a smaller capacity, it's at lower pressure and nobody ever tops it up when the level falls, so as gear oil leaks, the leak tends to reduce.

On the other hand, engine oil is plentiful - it's easy to check and top up... and the pressure is higher so it's more likely to escape in the first place.

Also, the oil looks black.. so again suggests engine oil. Gear oil is always clean, even when it's worn out... (although clutch dust could have coloured the oil in your bell-housing).

Does it smell at all? Gear oil tends to smell of smokey bacon.. not to be confused with the smell of worn out clutch plate... whereas engine oil has less odour (just an "engine oil" smell).

If you have not touched the gear oil, it could be worth removing the fill-level screw and see how low the level is. If it's nearly at the full level, then it's probably not losing any.


Ralf S.

 

[tessiedog]

Ralf S.

Thanks for this, appreciate it.

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I did drain the gearbox oil at an earlier stage (faithfully following Davren’s guide) and actually very little came out, maybe about half a litre, at most (compared to around two litre capacity?), but the precise measure of this was compromised by the fact that there was some spillage (but not that much) and the car was very much front end up at the time (so oil in the box sitting away from the drain hole). I haven’t tried to drain it again since its been out, but will give that a go and see.

I’m interested in your comment about the gear oil being clear, since what little I did manage to drain off and capture was a kind of dark grey, with a sort of almost milkiness about it – maybe symptomatic of the box chewing itself up internally and hence the need for replacement? bearing mind also that it had a full refill when the garage did the clutch the first time, and only did about 300 miles after.

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Not sure about the Smokey Bacon smell (I like Smokey Bacon……), but certainly when whatever oil it was, was leaking on to the hot exhaust and burning off, it seemed to me to be quite pungent (from my limited experience, hot or burning engine oil doesn’t quite have the same intensity of smell?). However, I do remember that just after the new clutch was put in there was definitely clear oil dripping from the bellhousing, which seems a bit contradictory given that the small amount of oil drained from the box wasn’t clear? *

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The point to this is, of course, that I’m hoping that the leakage is coming from the gbox, which is getting replaced anyway, so that would mean that I could get away without having to remove the flywheel and replace the crankseal (my other Stilo, also a 1.4 16v, has run up to 140k now with no probs in this respect, but suppose that’s no guarantee of anything). Maybe I will be able to get a clearer view of the engine end when I remove the clutch, but at the mo I’m thinking (hoping) that if nothing much else drains out of the box then its been gear oil. Maybe it could be both engine and gear oil……….

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Cheers

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PS – latest in the Stoopid Question series – when the garage replaced the clutch (which needs the gbox taken out?), they clearly didn’t remove the left front suspension and so on, so they must have some other way of doing things?

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[Artermis]

You can usually smell trans fluid, as Ralf says.

If it's engine oil it'd have to be the crank seal, so have a look and see if the back of the flywheel is wet, if it's possible to see.

As for garage changing the clutch, it's possible they just unbolt the box and shove it to one side; if you have a ramp it's possible you could change the clutch from underneath with just a few inches access to get your hand in.

I dont know for sure if that's technically possible on this vehicle but I know that how it can be done, if that makes sense.

 

[Ralf S.]

Ralf S.

Thanks for this, appreciate it.

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I did drain the gearbox oil at an earlier stage (faithfully following Davren’s guide) and actually very little came out, maybe about half a litre, at most (compared to around two litre capacity?), but the precise measure of this was compromised by the fact that there was some spillage (but not that much) and the car was very much front end up at the time (so oil in the box sitting away from the drain hole). I haven’t tried to drain it again since its been out, but will give that a go and see.

I’m interested in your comment about the gear oil being clear, since what little I did manage to drain off and capture was a kind of dark grey, with a sort of almost milkiness about it – maybe symptomatic of the box chewing itself up internally and hence the need for replacement? bearing mind also that it had a full refill when the garage did the clutch the first time, and only did about 300 miles after.

*

Not sure about the Smokey Bacon smell (I like Smokey Bacon……), but certainly when whatever oil it was, was leaking on to the hot exhaust and burning off, it seemed to me to be quite pungent (from my limited experience, hot or burning engine oil doesn’t quite have the same intensity of smell?). However, I do remember that just after the new clutch was put in there was definitely clear oil dripping from the bellhousing, which seems a bit contradictory given that the small amount of oil drained from the box wasn’t clear? *

*

Yes, if the oil was milky then it contains either water or metal filings. The two are different but you'll be able to tell... water makes the oil "white" whereas a ground-into-dust metal component will be grey, since it's metal dust suspended in the oil rather than a reaction with it.


The other "mystery oil" a bell-housing can accumulate is brake/clutch fluid... although you have an external slave cylinder with presumably no access for a fluid leak to get into the bell-housing. My old (internal) CSC leaked fluid into the housing for a while until it packed up altogether. It has a distinct smell too... (brake fluid) although in the end I decided that the "oil" in my bell-housing was a bit of everything leaking...

Given the trauma your gearbox suffered, that might have damaged the oil seal (gear oil containing fine metal particles?) so hopefully your oil is mostly gear oil... so no need to change the output shaft seal ... although if it's quite easy to do, this might be a good time to get a new one in there. You'll realistically never have to remove the gearbox again.


Ralf S.

 

[dukebus]

There may be some bolts and 2 studs, in which case, loosen the nuts on the 2 studs, but leave removing the those nuts until you're ready to remove the gearbox.

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Sorry to butt in here after so long, but i just happen to be in the same predicament! (well, swapping out a gearbox) and this thread is live.

Does anyone know if the 1.6 (103HP/C154R) gearbox has these studs/nuts? I was looking on ePer and it doesnt mention them, but I can see at least one on the back of the bell housing, blocked by a bracket. I have air con too, which makes things even harder to spot.