Technical Uneven front tyre wear

[spidermania]

This is our new license plate starting next year, I should be getting mine in a week or two. Only difference are the colors and we added a buffalo. My state under law has to change the plate design every 8 years because of the reflectiveness is only good for that many years. (so the police can read it at night) At 7 years they form a committee to chose the design, but the public is not allowed to weight in on.

I'm still trying to get use it, as I don't like that tourist advertising. But all the states are going that way because like England we no longer have a healthy tax base because there are no longer any decent jobs for the average person so they come up with any scheme they can to generate revenue.

Here's the outgoing plate design.
Note: that's an actual lake and mountain scene in our state

 

[Dougal Cawley]

That's what you want if you drive in snow. My spider came with 205's and when I replaced them I tried to find 195's but in my new configuration of 205/50/17 (stock is 205/45/17) but it put me way over the 3% safety margin we operate on in the states. My new set-up only puts me at .33% off and is acceptable as the tire shop installed them. They will not install if they are to far over that 3%.

But the narrower the tire the better it is in the snow. Some of the idiots over here lower their spider and are running 225's of course they don't live in a snow state. I went from stock 5.32 inch (minimum) ground clearance to 6.14 (minimum). And what a difference it makes. I don't just do snow, I go on dirt roads over cattle guards when I go out to practice my shooting. No fear now in the spider with that ground clearance, just drive sensibly and you won't kick up to many rocks to possibly damage the bits underneath. Of course it's nice that the spider's critical components are covered underneath.View attachment 452532

What are you talking about?

that is a totally different car, which has a massively more sophisticated steering and suspension geometry which is worlds apart f4rom a classic Fiat 500.

that is like getting the Mona Lisa and the latest edition of Star Wars and saying it is better on a massive up to date TV screen. it is an irelavent comparison.

A classic Fiat 500 does not have the ability to keep the foot print of a wide tyre or a modern tyre carcas's foot print in contact with the tarmac. As the car leans it will lift most of the foot print off the road then suddenly loose grip.

Horses for course.

the current Cinturato CN54 tyres are the best tyres for the classic 500. going wider than 145/70R12 will ruin its handling as a road car, and even that will take its tole and make the steering a bit slower and heavier.

PIRELLI CINTURATO ™ CN54

Vintage Tyres - Welcome to Longstone Classic Tyres, the home of vintage tyres. Call us on +441302711123 for information on how to buy vintage tyres.

www.longstonetyres.co.uk

just fit the 125R12 CN54. you will have more fun and they are cheap as chips.

we do them fitted to standard wheels with new Michelin tubes, and it is cheaper than paying to have uyour tyres removed, painting your wheels and then paying to have them fitted again. just deliverd all done, simply bolt them on. you dont have a car in your shed on axle stands while all that faffing gets done.

on top of that you are having inner tubes fuitted by peope who understand inner tubes.

 

[spidermania]

View attachment 452571

Never seen anybody corner like that in a car, a motorcycle yes. Not sure you fully grasped what was being talked about. Those angles in a car would most likely tip them over. Might I remind you that Mona Lisa was most likely a prostitute and you are a tire salesmen. You sell nostalgia, no one in their right minds in 2024 runs car tire inner tubes. Again you are trying to sell classic configuration, but that doesn't mean it's right or any better.
And your spiel about modern day steering has absolutely no relevance.

 

[the hobbler]

Never seen anybody corner like that in a car, a motorcycle yes. Not sure you fully grasped what was being talked about. Those angles in a car would most likely tip them over. Might I remind you that Mona Lisa was most likely a prostitute and you are tire salesmen. You sell nostalgia, no one in their right minds in 2024 runs car inner tubes. Again you are trying to sell classic configuration, but that doesn't mean it's right or any better.
And your modern day spiel about steering has absolutely no relevance.

View attachment 452589

Too many times on this Forum the sage advice from Dougal Cawley has been ridiculed. I have ABSOLUTELY NO CONNECTION or ever met Dougal, but from what I know of tyre and suspension, (and I would bet that I have a few more years experience than most people on this forum have) he is absolutely correct. Not knowing how old you are "Spidermania", I have no idea of your knowledge, or experience regarding CLASSIC (note,CLASSIC, not vintage) wheels. The wheels fitted, from standard by Fiat, to the Fiat 500 and 126 were designed to run with TUBED tyres, and therfore do NOT have the tyre-rim retaining ridge---which means that for safety reasons, you HAVE to use tubed tyres. The Pirelli (and Michelin) tyres that are specific to the 500 and 126 Fiats are designed (and Dougal has this information IN WRITING from both manufacturers) so that these tyres CAN be run with tubes.
You mention in your latest comments 'Spidermania' that you have never seen cars with those angles of lean----you have onviouslynever driven a 2CV citoen or a Renault 4---bothof these cars being famous (INfamous ?) for their 'lean angles'
This Forum has always been noted for the courtesy and lack of rudeness to other Forum members---may I suggest, very politely Spidermania that you stick to the 'Spider' Forum where your attitude and language MAY be more tolerated---it is NOT wanted on this Forum!

 

[spidermania]

If it gets any deeper I'll have to put my boots on.
Lets try to remember many come on this forum looking for help, and bad information doesn't help, information trying to be sold as legitimate.
There are top people on this forum and most of us can recognize them. I'm here because of those people.

 

[Dougal Cawley]

Never seen anybody corner like that in a car, a motorcycle yes. Not sure you full grasped what was being talked about. Those angles in a car would most likely tip them over. Might I remind you that Mona Lisa was most likely a prostitute and you are tire salesmen. You sell nostalgia, no one in their right minds in 2024 runs car inner tubes. Again you are trying to sell classic configuration, but that doesn't mean it's right or any better. And your modern day spiel about steering has absolutely no relevance.

View attachment 452589

Hmm there is a lot wrong here; so i will try to brake it down.

"Never seen anybody corner like that in a car, a motorcycle yes. Not sure you full grasped what was being talked about. Those angles in a car would most likely tip them over."

The angles were, of course, exagerated to demonstrate the differences between modern suspension and that of older cars like the classic Fiat 500. Cars of this period have suspension that travels considerably further than that of a modern car, which is why these cars do lean considerably more in the corners than a clever modern car. That combined with the olders cars inability to increase the angles of adverse camber as a car leans, creating the phenomina where the wheel stays parallel to the car, hence as the car leans the wheel leans with it. As the wheel leans, an old car benefits from an older tyre carcass design that is thinner and has rounded shoulders, where the contact point moves around the shoulder of the tyre. A modern tyre on an old car leans to a point and then suddenly lifts the larger portion of the tyre off the road. dramatically loosing grip. If you look at the picture (not the Mona Lisa) you will see the different angles of the wheels in relation to the car between the old car and modern car.

'Might I remind you that Mona Lisa was most likely a prostitute and you are tire salesmen. '

It is possible that the Mona Lisa was a prostitue, however there is no actual factual scientific evidence to prove this. That is your speculation. What i hope to share with people who read this post isnt speculation. it is the reason why major car manufacturers are now contacting Pirelli asking them to make specific classic tyres for their cars, just like this, to maintain the handling of their older cars.

Fortunately the career of specialist tyre dealer was open to me, because that of an artist was not.

'You sell nostalgia, no one in their right minds in 2024 runs car inner tubes.'

I sell tyres that work best with classi cars. the fact that a lot of people enjoy the nostaligic fact they also look good is a bonus.

These pirelli are made by one of the worlds best tyre manufacturers who understand the needs of your car, as a road car, better than most. Well probably better than nearly everyone. They make the perfect tyre for your cars as far as appearance goes (unless you want crossply). However importantly they make it with the right carcass struucture designed to suit your chassis geometry. I am not an artist; however i hope that picture depicts in a relatively simplistic way the differences. These pirelli are manufactured in the very best of manufacturing plants with exceptional quality control, made to the top end of the tolerances. They are made with modern chemicals and compounds. the carcass structure is right to give you the right feel and handling, but the compounds are improved to give you better wet behaviour.

No one in their right mind drives a standard classic Fiat 500 wheel without inner tubes. It isnt what year it is that counts. it is the equipment you are using that determines the needs.

There are a 2 features that determine wheather tubes are needed or not. both these features need to be correct:

1. Are the tyres tubeless tyres? Yes the 125R12 Pirelli Cinturato CN54 is a tubless tyre. As a full 80% profile tyre that means you can use an inner tube if you need to. But the CN54 has the none pourous coating in the carcass so in the right enviroment it can be run without a tube, or with one if needed.
2. Are the wheels being used built to be used without inner tubes? No. A standard Classic Fiat 500 wheel is not a tubless wheel. a standard classic Fiat 500 wheel needs an innertube.

It is the standard Fiat 500 wheel that determines that an innertube should be fitted. (Modern wheels with the safety hump can run these tyres tubeless.)

Again you are trying to sell classic configuration, but that doesn't mean it's right or any better.

Sheesh! I'm just not even going to entertain this spiteful cynicism

And your modern day spiel about steering has absolutely no relevance.

I think steering is relavent.

 

[fiat500]

Things have certainly changed over the years and us older folk find it hard to accept.
However we are here for our love of Fiats.

.....

What are you talking about?

that is a totally different car, which has a massively more sophisticated steering and suspension geometry which is worlds apart f4rom a classic Fiat 500.

that is like getting the Mona Lisa and the latest edition of Star Wars and saying it is better on a massive up to date TV screen. it is an irelavent comparison.

A classic Fiat 500 does not have the ability to keep the foot print of a wide tyre or a modern tyre carcas's foot print in contact with the tarmac. As the car leans it will lift most of the foot print off the road then suddenly loose grip.

View attachment 452571

Horses for course.

the current Cinturato CN54 tyres are the best tyres for the classic 500. going wider than 145/70R12 will ruin its handling as a road car, and even that will take its tole and make the steering a bit slower and heavier.

PIRELLI CINTURATO ™ CN54

Vintage Tyres - Welcome to Longstone Classic Tyres, the home of vintage tyres. Call us on +441302711123 for information on how to buy vintage tyres.

www.longstonetyres.co.uk

just fit the 125R12 CN54. you will have more fun and they are cheap as chips.

we do them fitted to standard wheels with new Michelin tubes, and it is cheaper than paying to have uyour tyres removed, painting your wheels and then paying to have them fitted again. just deliverd all done, simply bolt them on. you dont have a car in your shed on axle stands while all that faffing gets done.

on top of that you are having inner tubes fuitted by peope who understand inner tubes.

......and try finding a Kwik Fit that will even attempt it!

 

[fiat500]

If it gets any deeper I'll have to put my boots on.
Lets try to remember many come on this forum looking for help, and bad information doesn't help, information trying to be sold as legitimate.
There are top people on this forum and most of us can recognize them. I'm here because of those people.

You're all just talking about tyres; metaphoric "boots" or any other aggressive term are unnecessary and quite ludicrous in this context.
I have previusly disagreed with @Dougal Cawley and regularly have opinions slightly at odds with @the hobbler, but when this happens we choose to leave it at that...and I think that you should do that too.

 

[Dougal Cawley]

Come see us.

Inner Tubes

To find the correct inner tube for your classic car please choose your classic tyre size from the drop down list below, this will then tell you which inner tube you should fit.

www.longstonetyres.co.uk

Or we supply tgyres fitted to new wheels

New Fiat 500 wheels

document.addEventListener("DOMContentLoaded", function(){ var newTitle = document.createElement("H2"); newTitle.innerHTML = "A standard Fiat 500 wheel fitted and balanced with a michelin inner tube with the original 125SR12 Pirelli Cinturato CN54"...

www.longstonetyres.co.uk

I think that is amazing value.


I would suggest a Kwik Fit depot should refuse to fit your standard wheels without inner tubes. I wonder where there insurance stands fitting tyres without inner tubes on a wheel that needs inner tubes.

A lot of this obsolete technology the majority of young tyre fitters in modern tyre fitting bays will be ignorant of.

 

[Dougal Cawley]

You're all just talking about tyres; metaphoric "boots" or any other aggressive term are unnecessary and quite ludicrous in this context.
I have previusly disagreed with @Dougal Cawley and regularly have opinions slightly at odds with @the hobbler, but when this happens we choose to leave it at that...and I think that you should do that too.

I dont think we can do that with the inner tube thingy. standard wheels should be fitted with inner tubes.

the handling thing is different. people can choose to sacrefice the handling of their car to save money or because they like the look of the fat tyre and weather i'm right or wrong doesnt matter they will just do what they want and that is fine. from my part i think it is good if people are informed when they make these decisions and i will argue my case, becuase people get the facts mixed up, but the choice is theres.

However the tube thing is different. People should not be encouraged to drive around with a standard wheel without an inner tuube. If you want to do it, then that is your choice, but you have got the facts to make that decision from. A standard Fiat 500 wheel is designed to be used in conjunction with innertubes. its not a personal taste thing. Its not an opinion thing. It is a stone cold fact.

 

[spidermania]

"boots" or any other aggressive term are unnecessary

Interesting concept, must be a British thing eh. If the commies ever come ashore you'll most likely have to tap the care homes for recruits.
45 years of E.U. ruin.

 

[smart51]

Should we stop feeding the troll about now?

 

[rmjbn1]

Personally one of the things I like most about this forum is that it's friendly and welcoming to everyone.
Not all of us subscribe to Spidermania's world views, and that's fine, we don't all have to agree.
But please Spidermania leave your personal politics out, and take your hate speech elsewhere.
Was someone talking about tyres?
I run an old car with inner tubes, in fact I've spoken with Longstone for advice in the past and have been very happy with them. Enthusiasts who know their stuff.

 

[spidermania]

please Spidermania leave your personal politics out, and take your hate speech elsewhere.

I have enough respect for this forum and rest assured I'll not be on this thread again.
I'm well aware people with 'made-up' truths are highly sensitive when challenged. I'm sure if I last a few years here I'll convince you the Italians know how to build a car. (thankfully most of mine is Japanese)

 

[rmjbn1]

Mine's Polish (thank heavens)!

 

[Dougal Cawley]

Just for a bit of fun this is a sort of 100 year old car doing over 100 mph with inner tubes in Italy!

 

[fiat500]

Inner Tubes

To find the correct inner tube for your classic car please choose your classic tyre size from the drop down list below, this will then tell you which inner tube you should fit.

www.longstonetyres.co.uk

Or we supply tgyres fitted to new wheels

New Fiat 500 wheels

document.addEventListener("DOMContentLoaded", function(){ var newTitle = document.createElement("H2"); newTitle.innerHTML = "A standard Fiat 500 wheel fitted and balanced with a michelin inner tube with the original 125SR12 Pirelli Cinturato CN54"...

www.longstonetyres.co.uk

I think that is amazing value.


I would suggest a Kwik Fit depot should refuse to fit your standard wheels without inner tubes. I wonder where there insurance stands fitting tyres without inner tubes on a wheel that needs inner tubes.

A lot of this obsolete technology the majority of young tyre fitters in modern tyre fitting bays will be ignorant of.

A tyre depot couldn't refuse to fit my tyres without inner tubes because I wouldn't ask them to.
The problem that I am highlighting is that neither would they fit them with inner tubes, even if I was to supply the tubes.
It's great that you supply tyres with tubes already fitted to wheels. (I assume that the wheels are better than those available (although not necessarily sold by you) a few years ago?
But when I get a puncture or need a new tyre and want to retain my old wheel for sentimental or economic/environmental reasons, in my location I'm forced to do it myself; I wonder where insurance stands with regard to that?!

 

[bugsymike]

The main beauty to me of tubeless tyres was if punctured you had slower deflation, so much safer.
Also as has been explained the rim design for tubeless is totally different. We also used to come across old Series Land Rovers on original rims, but some joker had wrongly fitted tubeless tyres and valves!!!
As an apprentice in the late 60s when farmers flailed their hedges it would fall to me to locate all the thorns, repair their inner tubes till it happened again.
Mind you the worst for me was punctures on the muck spreaders with split rims

 

[Dougal Cawley]

We sell some really super strong reinforced inner tubes for the Landrover gang. People still fit tubes for off road activities. For most aplications it is better to have a tubless tyre fitted on a tubeless wheel.

the slower deflation benefit is the polar opposite if you try running on these Fiat 500 wheels without a tube. on a modern wheel you have the safety hump which stops your tyre falling off the bead when the tyre pressure gets a bit low. However without that hump, there is nothing to stop it sliding off the bead seat to to toatal and immediate tyre deflation. it only works if you have the full packet.

All things considered if you are fitting after market wheels you can get tubless wheels. But the advantage of tubeless is very small or none at all if you are vigilant on your tyre pressure. the real advantages are the money saving and less unsprung rotating mass.

How about a set of genuine Borrani wheels?

https://www.borrani.com/fiat-wheels/nuova-500.html

The wheels we use are the ones we get from Ricambio. When you look at the maths of our wheel and tyres it is a real good bargain, particularly if you compare it to buying a new tyre to fit on a wheel that you are planning on restoring:

£ 69 for the tyre.
£ 18 for the inner tube. not just any old rubbish. A Michelin Airstop tube.
£ 15 to have the tyre removed from your wheel, while your car is propped up on axle stands in the way of the chest freezer in your garage.
£ 20 to have your wheel painted, while your car is propped up on axle stands in the way of the chest freezer in your garage.
£ 15 to have the new tyre fitted your wheel, by someone who doesnt understand how to fit inner tubes.
£ 137 total

We do one wheel and tyre for £ 140- 36!
If you take advantage of our special offer on a set of 5 then it actually works out cheaper at £ 131-80 each

All these sums are + VAT

the other consideration, which might not matter, is that we balance these wheels. Now in theory it doesn't matter, it is unnesesary, because the specs i have breifly looked at apparently your top speed is less then 60mph so you shouldnt have too much problem with balance, which is good because the majority of garages would not know how to balance your wheels. These standard wheels don't fit the majority of balancing machines because they have that silly bar going accross the middle.

 

[bugsymike]

We sell some really super strong reinforced inner tubes for the Landrover gang. People still fit tubes for off road activities. For most aplications it is better to have a tubless tyre fitted on a tubeless wheel.

the slower deflation benefit is the polar opposite if you try running on these Fiat 500 wheels without a tube. on a modern wheel you have the safety hump which stops your tyre falling off the bead when the tyre pressure gets a bit low. However without that hump, there is nothing to stop it sliding off the bead seat to to toatal and immediate tyre deflation. it only works if you have the full packet.

All things considered if you are fitting after market wheels you can get tubless wheels. But the advantage of tubeless is very small or none at all if you are vigilant on your tyre pressure. the real advantages are the money saving and less unsprung rotating mass.

How about a set of genuine Borrani wheels?

https://www.borrani.com/fiat-wheels/nuova-500.html

View attachment 452674

The wheels we use are the ones we get from Ricambio. When you look at the maths of our wheel and tyres it is a real good bargain, particularly if you compare it to buying a new tyre to fit on a wheel that you are planning on restoring:

£ 69 for the tyre.
£ 18 for the inner tube. not just any old rubbish. A Michelin Airstop tube.
£ 15 to have the tyre removed from your wheel, while your car is propped up on axle stands in the way of the chest freezer in your garage.
£ 20 to have your wheel painted, while your car is propped up on axle stands in the way of the chest freezer in your garage.
£ 15 to have the new tyre fitted your wheel, by someone who doesnt understand how to fit inner tubes.
£ 137 total

We do one wheel and tyre for £ 140- 36!
If you take advantage of our special offer on a set of 5 then it actually works out cheaper at £ 131-80 each

All these sums are + VAT

the other consideration, which might not matter, is that we balance these wheels. Now in theory it doesn't matter, it is unnesesary, because the specs i have breifly looked at apparently your top speed is less then 60mph so you shouldnt have too much problem with balance, which is good because the majority of garages would not know how to balance your wheels. These standard wheels don't fit the majority of balancing machines because they have that silly bar going accross the middle.

All good points I already know and 100% agree with you about, although for those who haven't been in the motor trade since 1969 always useful knowledge.