Hi All. Just wondering what the current thoughts are on rotating tyres on front wheel drive Fiats. I have always swapped front to back at around 10,000 miles but there seem to be mixed messages now on whether this is a good thing.
Tyre Rotation
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Tyre Rotation
Personally I rotate front to rear to get max. tyre wear usage as necessary, even with correct steering geometry modern wider tyres tend to wear on the outside edges, I think it is to do with "Ackerman" steering principles as due to the inner edge of a tyre moving at a different rate to the outside of a turning circle, hence they scrub which is worse with a wider tyre.
Modern radial tyres shouldn't be fitted to the opposite side of a vehicle to what they were originally fitted, whereas in the old days with cross ply tyres it was recommended to do that to max, usage. Plus many modern tyres are marked with a direction arrow and outside edge also.
Tyre depots advise fitting new tyres to the rear initially and then moving them to the front later, as best practice. My view is I prefer the best grip on my steering and driving wheels.
Very controversial isn't it, whether to rotate or not. Despite the fact that directional tyres (ones that can only be fitted to rotate in one direction) arguably give some advantages in grip I don't fit them because you can't swap them side to side if you need to for some reason. Asymmetric tread patterns I'm a great fan of as I believe they give the best of both worlds, namely advantages in performance and the ability to mount them anywhere on the vehicle.
Having said that the question is whether to rotate or not? After many years of thinking about this I've come to this conclusion: Most cars now a days are set up suspension wise to tend towards understeer. They are also front wheel drive and when you add in the fact that front wheels do most of the "heavy lifting" in terms of braking it should come as no surprise to find that front tyres wear out much more quickly than rears - Difficult to put a figure on it because driving style will be different for different people but in general I'd recon fronts wear out at twice the rate of rears?
From a personal perspective I can also throw into this that, back when I worked for Firestone in the late '60s/early 70's I was involved in a lot of tyre testing. Now most of this was not directly applicable to road tyres being as how we were testing cross ply racing tyres when most road tyres were by then radials but I was involved in a very interesting test of racing tyres Vs road tyres when fitted to beach buggies. For control purposes we tested a number of different road tyres on a number of different vehicles as well as the beach buggies and we had a great time doing really "silly" and "outrageous" things with cars on the skid pan in between the official testing. Although I had dabbled in rallying and sprint hillclimbs - with pathetic outcomes - this time on the skid pan really demonstrated to me how much more easily an understeering car is to control when compared to one in an oversteering state. It's great fun to have a rear wheel drive car going semi sideways steering it on the throttle when in a controlled environment like a skid pan but I really don't want to be trying to control one doing this on the public highway. Another finding was that once a tyre approaches 2mm in tread depth it might as well be bald on a really wet road surface. In my opinion the 1.6mm tread limit (which allows certain areas of the tread to actually be below that as long as the original tread pattern is visible I believe?) is inadequate especially in heavy rain when going at speed - for instance on a motorway. Another quite surprising thing we noticed was that different makes of tyres with different tread patterns produced much more variation in braking performance in the wet when compared to in the dry. Different makes with different tread patterns mounted on the front wheels in particular could make controlling the car in extreme situations quite a bit more difficult. I concluded from this that it's very advisable to always have identical tyres on the same axle, especially the front.
So, with all that in mind I always fit new tyres to the rear axle if I'm only fitting two or single tyres. - Ideally I like to fit at least two so they match. I'm ambiguous about whether to rotate or not but if you're going to do it just swap fronts to rears, keeping tyres on the same side of the car. The trouble with swaping tyres around is that you sometimes end up with steering pulling slightly to one side or the other until they settle down - Ok if it's your own car and you know this is possible to happen, very difficult to explain to a customer. When my front tyres approach 2mm - so I'm thinking about it when they measure 2.5mm - it's time for new ones and at that time I would put both rears to the front and the new ones on the back to reduce the chances of an oversteer being a possibility. This also reduces the possibility of having several sets of new front tyres while the rears, lasting much longer, grow old and hard and maybe need to be changed due to degradation of the rubber before actually needing to be changed due to tread wear.
There are bound to be exceptions to this general rule and my Ibiza is maybe one. However i strongly believe in the general principal of having the best gripping tyres on the rear - this is not to say you should let your front tyres degrade to the point where they become unacceptable of course. I mention the Ibiza because it tends to wear it's front tyres slightly more on the inner shoulders (probably because these days, being an old codger, I tend to go very "steady") and the rears wear slightly more on the outside due, I think, to it carrying quite a lot of negative toe on the rear wheels. I did rotate the original fit Bridgestones about half way through their lives, front to rear on both sides, and ended up having to buy a set of 4 all at one time when they wore out! Having to buy 4 at a time is another "disadvantage" of rotating tyres!
I will admit as a youngster driving nippy cars with rear wheel drive and crossply tyres was fun and from that view point controllable over steer I felt more happy with than understeer heading into a corner in a straight line knowing the car didn't want to turn. Now that reminds my of Ladas on Russian tyres again.
However I do accept that modern front wheel drive and radial tyres is much safer, albeit less fun.
A lot depends on the drivers, earlier talks of winter coming made me think that in Scotland most drivers are probably fairly used to snow and slippery road surfaces, whilst down here anything more than a heavy frost and car drivers are all over the place.
I recall the one time before my first marriage when I could afford to go on a winter skiing trip (no skill by the way) in Italy, on the weekends the locals would all drive into the mountains to ski. I watched a Fiat 127 on standard road tyres coming up the last steep part of the snow covered road and the tyres finally gave up grip, as I watched the entire family apart from the driver, mother and all the children got out and climbed onto the bonnet, the driver then pulled away and completed the journey.
One of the reasons why we kept on with crossply construction with the racing tyres was because of the progressive breakaway you get with a crossply. Radials, especially the earlier examples, would hold on and hold on and hold on and then suddenly let go with a vengeance. But the big problem with car control in slippy conditions is that few people have experience of controlling a skid. There's plenty written about it, not to brake and to steer into the skid, but when it actually happens many people just freeze in panic or hammer the brakes on, which, on ice, packed snow etc, even with ABS will get you nowhere except to the scene of the crash. Even somewhat more able drivers who perhaps will manage to "steer into the skid" seem never to be able to then catch the "flip side" when it snaps back and you need to wind on full opposite lock. The only way to really learn how to exercise at least some effective control over the vehicle is to experience it and practice your skills. I think there's quite a good case to be made for skid pan experience to be part of learning to drive. Not that you're going to learn a lot about control in the time that you'd get but it will let you experience what it feels like and so reduce the sense of absolute panic and despair if it happens for real out on the road thus, possibly, buying you the time to take some sort of appropriate action.I will admit as a youngster driving nippy cars with rear wheel drive and crossply tyres was fun and from that view point controllable over steer I felt more happy with than understeer heading into a corner in a straight line knowing the car didn't want to turn. Now that reminds my of Ladas on Russian tyres again.
However I do accept that modern front wheel drive and radial tyres is much safer, albeit less fun.
A lot depends on the drivers, earlier talks of winter coming made me think that in Scotland most drivers are probably fairly used to snow and slippery road surfaces, whilst down here anything more than a heavy frost and car drivers are all over the place.
I recall the one time before my first marriage when I could afford to go on a winter skiing trip (no skill by the way) in Italy, on the weekends the locals would all drive into the mountains to ski. I watched a Fiat 127 on standard road tyres coming up the last steep part of the snow covered road and the tyres finally gave up grip, as I watched the entire family apart from the driver, mother and all the children got out and climbed onto the bonnet, the driver then pulled away and completed the journey.
My reason for arguing the case for understeer is that to control an oversteering car you will need to apply opposite lock and then be quick enough to catch it when the rear wheels bite again by winding a whole bunch of lock in the other direction on and then possibly go back with more opposite lock again to catch it if it tries to flick you the other way again. With understeer you're probably off the throttle already because you know you need to slow down and the car is running wide so you turn into the corner more which makes the front tyres side slip and scrub off speed. As long as you're not going so fast you run out of road, as you slow the front tyres will grip more so you just wind off lock until you are going round the corner at the required angle of steering when you can resume applying a bit of throttle to continue. Much much less steering wheel twiddling required and many people will cope.
I agree , until you have experienced skids it can come as a big surprise, something with a little bit of instruction whilst learning to drive could save many accidents.
I did teach both of my wives to drive (no, I am not of that religion
just unable to hang on to them, hence no money) and when winter came I used to take them up on the moors and find a nice quiet snow covered car park and let them have a "spin around" to get the feel of it.Re your previous bit about beach buggies, trying to get rear engine, rear wheel drive vehicles with skinny front tyres and massive rears to handle must have been "interesting " to say the least, I did read a little about beach buggy tyre trials in the motoring mags at the time.
The Panda Nut
Nutty about Pandas Infected by Panda virus and OPD
I rotate tyres. Common sense says that each tyre is subject to differing stresses over the miles in relation to its position on the car. It makes sense to rotate to even not just wear but positional stresses to reduce early failures. Tyres are short term wearing items. N/S front always wears most. I also consider any puntures, the extent of damage and any exposure to running flat that may have occurred. I don't like mixing tyres of different ages as the compounds used vary over time, and so does the grip level, so prefer to wear a set out a time and then replace. Economics dictates usually buying a pair for one axle and then a second pair a few weeks later. At 3mm of tread tyres dontdo the job in wet weather. Anything over 185 width seems to take extreme offence to low tread depth. 3mm is as far as I am concerend has been far enough when driving a lot of miles at work. Driving now being slower, less miles, only in the day my tyres dont seem to be wearing and will be chucked on the scrap pile due to age but will still be rotated where possible.
I have been assured by numerous tyre firms that there are no longer recommendations on fitting new tyres front or rear. There is no science that applies to this any more as the grips is so good from the off, and ABS systems so good historic recommendatiosn just dont apply. I do still like to give new tyres 100 miles to scrub in and bed onto the rims at which time I may well get a rebalance done.
I have been assured by numerous tyre firms that there are no longer recommendations on fitting new tyres front or rear. There is no science that applies to this any more as the grips is so good from the off, and ABS systems so good historic recommendatiosn just dont apply. I do still like to give new tyres 100 miles to scrub in and bed onto the rims at which time I may well get a rebalance done.
Tyres have come a long way from my youth, of cross ply retreads , bulges , tread separation etc. punctures repaired with a darning needle string covered in "gloop" from the outside, no checking for internal damage, it was a long time ago but many of those tyres were on cars capable of 100mph.
Some years ago a friend started a second hand tyre business, it was a real eye opener, car salesmen bringing s/h Rolls Royce and Ferrari for cheap tyres etc.!!!
The Panda Nut
Nutty about Pandas Infected by Panda virus and OPD
My first car was shod on Goodyear remoulded cross plies. Under my 17 year old right foor they lasted about 250 miles before the treads were all coming off! It was straight onto Good year G800 supersteel radials and only top brands since then. You are so right about how much things have progressed.
I don't think radials were around when I was an apprentice, it was an ESSO garage and I can recall the hassle trying to get thin tubeless crossply tyres to sit on the rim enough to blow them up, they stored them flat which didn't help, they looked like pancakes 5.20 x14 and the like on Morris 1000 rims. I did have a Zephyr V6 on 6.70 x 13 they wore out quickly, though practicing oversteer cornering probably did,t help much
There's a car park by the football ground in Swindon, that unusually has no 'furniture' except around the edges. On the few occasions we've had snow, I've encouraged my learners to take their lesson, and we've played on the car park, letting them experience how too much brake, accelerator or steering, or combinations of those, will cause a slide. All done at slow speeds, with nothing to hit. Getting them to come off again and head home is a problem.
Did have an 'interesting moment' on one lesson. Raining, downhill, a bit sharp on the brakes and with a twitch to the steering at the same time, and the left front wheel mounted the verge, and the back stepped out. I'd managed skids many times, when playing in the snow, or on autotests, but from the passenger seat, this was a first. She did let go when asked, so I could turn the steering, and of course, as that wheel hit the tarmac, the rear tried to whip the opposite way. Got it controlled, and slowed to join the back of the queue. Very much the swan, calm above the surface, paddling like hell below. She was calm, not really understanding the issue, so drove on again calmly. The grassy bank would have resulted in a nice roly-poly if not caught. I explained some time later, after she passed her test. Didn't need her worrying or giving up. They'll have to work harder than that if they want to kill me.
Morris 100 and Ford Anglia had narrow rim beads, so always resisted the tyre sealing. We used to have a torniquet-like strpa that went around the tread, inflated to squeeze the tyre and force the sidewalls outwards.I don't think radials were around when I was an apprentice, it was an ESSO garage and I can recall the hassle trying to get thin tubeless crossply tyres to sit on the rim enough to blow them up, they stored them flat which didn't help, they looked like pancakes 5.20 x14 and the like on Morris 1000 rims. I did have a Zephyr V6 on 6.70 x 13 they wore out quickly, though practicing oversteer cornering probably did,t help much
The opposite of this of course, is trying to get the beads unseated on an Austin/Morris 1100.
All done with manual tyre equipment. Tyre fitters these days have it easy with their pneumatic machines.
Yes we had the tourniquet strap you blew up , it helped but the Esso tyres were textile braced and very thin so never easy, it almost made me look forward to doing punctures on split rim muck spreader wheels, note the almost
One morning on coming to work there was a farm labourer using the tyre gauge on the rear wheel of a tractor, my mate came in and I asked him if the guy was still out there as our garage compressor was working overtime? With that there was an enormous bang, when we got outside the labourer was looking stunned , he had blown the tyre off the rim, it was the type that uses water as ballast. On asking he seemed to think the pressure was approaching 100psi, I don't know why, normal pressure as I recall was about 7psi.
Good job it was "free air" in those days, he would have run out of coins to feed a meter
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Well after many years in the tyre trade, my first answer is simple. Always fit new tyres to the rear and move rear tyres to front. Note 1
Why?
Firstly Old tyres produce less grip - how many cars have you seen in hedges or ditches that have gone in backwards, this is due to old tyres at rear - less grip = sudden swing to oversteer & around you go out of control. Less grip st the front results in understeer , which means you tend drive drive a bit more slowly around corners so you get around them.
Second after many years of people complaining about the cost of a tyre or two tyres, it is easier to spread your costs by moving tyres in this fashion.
Third leaving old tyres on the rear of a front wheel drive car will likely result in the tyre deteriorating / perishing through ageing and having to be replaced before wearing out.
Fourth old worn tyres are more prone to punctures; rear tyres are always more prone to punctures this is due to the front tyres picking up debris and rear tyres running over it.
Beware of changing tyres from one side of the car to the other, many tyres are obviously directional from the tread pattern & sidewall markings show correct rotation.
Asymetric tyres may or may not be directional and need to be checked for directional sidewall markings before swapping from one side to the other.
Note 1 unless your car has different size tyres front to rear - common on BMW's & other rear wheel drive performance cars. Yes I know this is the Fiat Forum.
Also winter tyres or all season tyres should be fitted in sets of four
Puntazooo
New member
Hello.
I do it with every oil change (15,000km), I swap the wheels.
I cross the front ones backwards, the rear ones forward not. Left/left, right/right.
I do it with every oil change (15,000km), I swap the wheels.
I cross the front ones backwards, the rear ones forward not. Left/left, right/right.
So left rear swapped with left front and right rear swapped with right front? That's the way I'd choose to do it.
I know in the past on Crossply tyres the owners handbooks used to recommend swapping in all directions including bringing in the spare wheel. Personally I agree with recent comments, if swapping tyres/wheels around I only go front to rear on radial tyres as I have seen evidence of premature sidewall failure due to tyres that have had all the energy going in one direction i.e. clockwise then having to get used to going anticlockwise.
I've recently moved my fronts to rear and rear to fronts, on both cars, mainly to wear them all out together, to be replaced with all-seasons. Save the twice-yearly swap to winters and back.
The internal structure of the tyre 'settles' a little in first use. The driving wheels tend to settle opposite to the others. So for our front wheel drive cars, the front wheels are turned by the drive shafts, and the tread grips the road, so the inner structure is pulled forwards slightly. (Hopefully that makes sense.) The rear wheels are pulled along by the car, but it is the tread that grips the road, and pulls the wheel around, so the inner structure is pulled backwards.
If the wheels are swapped to the other end, on the same side, the inner structure takes a few miles to flex the other way. During this time, they run a little warmer, and may take many miles to fully settle into their new position. This is not significant to their safety, but will shorten their life slightly. I doubt we'd be able to measure it. If the tyres are swapped diagonally, the flex is continued the same way. This is likely to reduce the warmer running. I think this is why past recommendations has been to swap diagonally, as the flex and settling affected crossply tyres more.
All a bit more difficult with directional tyres of course.
Speak as you find
.I have fitted all sorts of tyres except large lorries since I started as an apprentice motor mechanic in 1969, the bit I was referring specifically to, was when a friend was starting S/H tyre business in the early 1980s and we noticed that some makes of tyres, possibly textile based were showing serious wear lines in the sidewalls, in line with where the bracing was wound in the manufacturing process originally and were showing visibly in some s/h tyres, this was put down to a change in the direction, that the tyre experienced after running half it's life in one direction and then doing the opposite.
