General TwinAir Thread (including MPG)

[M12MKD]

I only use mine around town, and get between 38 (worse so far) and 48 (best so far).

Not near my Skoda Fabia for mpg, and about the same as my Skoda Octavia (diesel)

I do feel mine has a few issues, revs rise when braking sometimes (not caught both pedals) the revs are very slow to drop, the anti-stall is without doubt the worse I've ever experienced on a car. Stop-start plays up, will restart and die, which mean you have to release clutch and press down again. Also the obc gets stuck and is slow to respond.

But as much as the car is disappointing and annoying...... That engine tone and when it doesn't play up its fun, makes me forgive it for a few of its issues.

 

[filmsthinbloke]

Latest Update FIAT 500: Report of a waterpump failure at 4 years old with 19,000 miles.

17-7-2012: Reports of TwinAir turbo failures seem to be the result of owners switching the engines off when the turbos are red hot. These turbos need to be idled for at least 20 seconds before switching off, and longer if the car has just completed a long ascent or the engine has been revved hard.

 

[deeyup]

Twin air hasn't been out for 4 years, so don't know which motor has water pump failures.

most peoples journeys end with a slow section, mine does as the speed limit is 20 where I live.
Reversing at near tick over onto the drive takes a few seconds too. I'm happy that my turbo has had enough time to cool.
I don't remember reading anyone on fiat forum of anyone having a failed turbo yet?
anyone else?

 

[306maxi]

and you would expect 1 or 2 water pump failures anyway.

 

[chas379]

No Issues when I had my TA for 14 months, except for a single coil pack renewal.

 

[filmsthinbloke]

Twin air hasn't been out for 4 years, so don't know which motor has water pump failures.

most peoples journeys end with a slow section, mine does as the speed limit is 20 where I live.
Reversing at near tick over onto the drive takes a few seconds too. I'm happy that my turbo has had enough time to cool.
I don't remember reading anyone on fiat forum of anyone having a failed turbo yet?
anyone else?

True but it's a 500 anyway. The reports of turbo failure on the twin air are from honest john.

To be honest I don't have a twinair but my 2003 Punto diesel was on it's third turbo when I sold it a 35K miles and are there any reports on fiat forum? Don't know I haven't looked. Happy with my 1.2 petrol Grande Punto.

 

[jimbo118]

Latest Update FIAT 500: Report of a waterpump failure at 4 years old with 19,000 miles.

17-7-2012: Reports of TwinAir turbo failures seem to be the result of owners switching the engines off when the turbos are red hot. These turbos need to be idled for at least 20 seconds before switching off, and longer if the car has just completed a long ascent or the engine has been revved hard.

I made this point on the Start/Stop thread - what does the SS do if say you pull into a layby after heavy usage with a red hot turbo - stop the engine dead straight away :bang:

Despite the better design and cooling of modern day turbos, this is still very bad. AFAIK, BMW have a heat sensor on their turbos on cars equipped with Stop/Start to allow the turbo to cool for a while before cutting the engine.

I always disable SS on long motorway drives for this reason on TA Ypsilon.

 

[babbo_umbro]

Of course you don't know what would have happened if you hadn't given the turbo a breather when it might be a bit on the hot side, but I ran a Tipo Tds for 150,000 miles and a very tweaked Uno turbo ie for over 80k, being scrupulous about turbo cooling and oil changes and had no turbo bothers with either.

 

[ahmett]

and you would expect 1 or 2 water pump failures anyway.

I think water pumps fail after a certain time regardless of mileage. My friends pump was leaking water after 4 years even though I am at the same amount of mileage he is and my car is 2 years and my water pump is fine! I may change it this year to be safe though along with the timing belt. It's a 1.4 after all dont want to have a thousand euro + repair bill.

 

[Ralf S.]

Water pump should easily be able to last a couple of cam-belt changes.. so change it with every other cam-belt if you never want any water pump hassle.


Ralf S.

 

[jrkitching]

I think water pumps fail after a certain time regardless of mileage. My friends pump was leaking water after 4 years...

Yes, water pumps will very often start leaking before they fail outright.

So the message to learn from this is "properly investigate any loss of coolant; don't just top it up & hope for the best".

It could save you an expensive repair bill.

Like so many things, this was much easier in the old days when the water pump drain hole could easily be seen by lifting the bonnet - the dye in the coolant left an obvious signature once the pump was on its way out.

 

[TrevC]

My TA turbo was changed at 12000m - no fault apparent, but when I put it in for an optional 1-year oil change, the garage said their was an issue with a particular batch, and changed it as a precaution. Haven't read the HJ reports yet, but I wonder if it's the same issue.

 

[homeward]

I wonder if this has anything to do with the production of TA Dualogic Pandas being suspended...?

 

[bgunn]

My TA turbo was changed at 12000m - no fault apparent, but when I put it in for an optional 1-year oil change, the garage said their was an issue with a particular batch, and changed it as a precaution. Haven't read the HJ reports yet, but I wonder if it's the same issue.

Was to do with the waste gate actuator lever coming off, not bearing failures.

 

[bgunn]

I made this point on the Start/Stop thread - what does the SS do if say you pull into a layby after heavy usage with a red hot turbo - stop the engine dead straight away :bang:

Despite the better design and cooling of modern day turbos, this is still very bad. AFAIK, BMW have a heat sensor on their turbos on cars equipped with Stop/Start to allow the turbo to cool for a while before cutting the engine.

I always disable SS on long motorway drives for this reason on TA Ypsilon.

As I said though, you'd need to idle for 15 mins or more if the turbo was 'red hot' after a sustained high load (it's load that increases EGTs) because most modern turbos are in unit with the exhaust manifold.

The key to this 'problem' is synthetic oil - synth oils were originally designed to cope with jet engine temperatures and this can be applicable in turbocharger bearings. Also, correct coolant circuit design to ensure a thermosyphon can operate with the engine (and thus water pump) stopped. It's not a new problem.

Turbos usually fail due to abuse, rarely for other reasons.

 

[jimbo118]

As I said though, you'd need to idle for 15 mins or more if the turbo was 'red hot' after a sustained high load (it's load that increases EGTs) because most modern turbos are in unit with the exhaust manifold.

The key to this 'problem' is synthetic oil - synth oils were originally designed to cope with jet engine temperatures and this can be applicable in turbocharger bearings. Also, correct coolant circuit design to ensure a thermosyphon can operate with the engine (and thus water pump) stopped. It's not a new problem.

Turbos usually fail due to abuse, rarely for other reasons.

Whilst I agree about the improved oil technology and design of the coooling circuit, it is still my opinion that cutting the oil & coolant flow to a red hot turbo isn't great engineering practise. It would appear that the BMW engineers agree with me or they wouldn't have bothered adding the extra cost and complexity to their cars to prevent this scenario.

 

[bgunn]

Or they have a different design envelope that their turbos are subjected to (higher EGTs) that means they *had* to implement this to avoid many, many warranty claims?

Or, or, or. How long is a piece of string? You can't really compare one marque to another, as there's too many variables at play. A turbo is not the same as a turbo etc.

That said, I wouldn't drive a car hard and then stop it straight away, I'd always drive slowly after a hard run - but that's not just for the turbo, it's to help cool the oil in general. The start/stop is irrelevant, because I wouldn't blast along on a motorway, pull into a service area, and stop without a period of 'cool down' - end of.

 

[ahmett]

Or they have a different design envelope that their turbos are subjected to (higher EGTs) that means they *had* to implement this to avoid many, many warranty claims?

Or, or, or. How long is a piece of string? You can't really compare one marque to another, as there's too many variables at play. A turbo is not the same as a turbo etc.

That said, I wouldn't drive a car hard and then stop it straight away, I'd always drive slowly after a hard run - but that's not just for the turbo, it's to help cool the oil in general. The start/stop is irrelevant, because I wouldn't blast along on a motorway, pull into a service area, and stop without a period of 'cool down' - end of.

Funnily enough thats what the manual says after a hard drive let the car idle a bit before turning it off.

 

[bgunn]

The trouble with idling is that the oil and coolant flow is pretty negligible as the engine load is low and the flow rate of both pumps is pretty tiny. Much better to drive at low load at reasonable revs. If you're not putting any load on the engine, the combustion temps will be relatively lower, and thus EGT is. And because the engine is spinning more quickly, the oil and water pump flow is high, and you're moving air through the rad which will mean it works more efficiently.

Don't forget the oil is cooled by the coolant on the TA.

 

[loveshandbags]

Some good advice on the FF about taking it easy in the last part of your journey on the TA and the A500 as well. With the trend for 'no lag' turbos they come on early and it's not as straight forward to drive off boost. Still if Fiat had incorporated the BMW heat sensor that S/S might never engage. I think I'd prefer to manually dis-engage given the history to-date of the S/S.