Technical Trying to catch oil leak.

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Technical Trying to catch oil leak.

gordinir8

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I am trying to find an oil leak j have, removed oil pan twise but problem seems to be from fuel pump or from alternator pad! Question is if it is possible to have leaks from alternator pad, maybe screw holes are open inside engine block or have any other holes that oil might leak. If someone has an stripped engine block can check it for me.

Thomas
 
I am trying to find an oil leak j have, removed oil pan twise but problem seems to be from fuel pump or from alternator pad! Question is if it is possible to have leaks from alternator pad, maybe screw holes are open inside engine block or have any other holes that oil might leak. If someone has an stripped engine block can check it for me.

Thomas

Thomas, the two studs which are furthest from the timing-cover are in threaded holes which go through the crankcase.
 
Peter just want to double check this, are you referring to the red ones? I just removed the green one and it is blind alright. If the other two are not blind that's good news and i'm gonna kill it:D I can confirm now no leak from the fuel pump.
Thomas
 

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Well all four threaded holes found blind:bang: I believe now that oil comes from the fuel pump gasket that leaks, then enters behind the alternator pad and then down to the oil pan. Although i have cleaned everything from oil, test run and examine the oil pump gaskets very careful i was pretty sure that it was free of leaks but i maybe be wrong. I also noticed that my fuel pump mating surface is bend so i just bought a new pump and will give it a try. I just need to adjust the pushrod that protrudes a lot and pump cant be fitted.
Thomas
 
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Well all four threaded holes found blind:bang: I believe now that oil comes from the fuel pump gasket that leaks, then enters behind the alternator pad and then down to the oil pan. Although i have cleaned everything from oil, test run and examine the oil pump gaskets very careful i was pretty sure that it was free of leaks but i maybe be wrong. I also noticed that my fuel pump mating surface is bend so i just bought a new pump and will give it a try. I just need to adjust the pushrod that protrudes a lot and pump cant be fitted.
Thomas

It sounds like the fuel pump has suffered from the classic over tightening of the flange to try and stop oil leaks probably with old gaskets and maybe a deformed Bakelite spacer. Assuming that the fuel pump worked ok then with care you can straighten the flange. From memory I believe that the fuel pump push rod should extend a maximumum of 4mm outside the fuel pump gaskets and spacer on the high point of the camshaft drive. Adjustments being made by different thickness gaskets. Normal set up is for a thick and a thin gasket. The thin one should go between the pump and spacer, thick between spacer and crankcase, to lessen the possibility of deforming the fuel pump flange. Ignore any reference to a tightening torque for the nuts but tighten by "feel" to get a seal.
 
Put new pump on and checking for leaks, i am a little bit of afraid to be honest but we will see. Had a ''flight'' test and seems that engine starves so i will put a thinner gasket and try it again. I just put the same exactly fuel pump as the old one. When everything is adjusted correctly i will put some rtv and tight the pump very gently. Bakelite is dead true although i broke it in half and glue it again with cyano :D:D Next order will have one new just in case
Thomas
 
I realise why that is....you have a 650 engine now don't you. The alternator is fixed with setscrews and not studs as in the dynamo crankcase I was looking at.:bang: Sorry.

No worries Peter, took me only two hours to remove and install again. :devil:
But please don't hesitate to reply again in my questions your knowledge is most welcome:worship:

Thomas
 
After new fuel pump replacement and a use of rtv on the gasket It's been four days now with no oil leaking:eek: Shall i worry?
Unfortunately fuel pump replacement started a new problem, engine sometimes when i push the throttle behaves like it starves of fuel but when i removing the fuel line, fuels runs out with pressure and not just by gravity like it is pressurized inside the hose. I have already removed the carburetor and clean it (it was clean actually) For what i know the fuel is not pressurized inside the hose when engine is not running.
 
^^ The only time I've seen this is when pressure builds up due to heat soak causing the fuel to expand.

With your new fuel pump (including new valves inside), fuel can't be pushed back towards the fuel tank. Usually the fuel pressure overcomes the carb. float valve and spills down the carb bore either flooding the engine (difficult restart when engine is hot) or leaking out into the little catch tray under the carb base.


Maybe the new pump is developing more pressure than the old one. Iirc the spring inside the pump is what determines the amount of pressure generated.

If you have the new pump off again, maybe you can devise a way to compare the force required to operate the old and new pumps?

AL.

AL.
 
I can confirm that fuel can't be pushed back in the new pump while there was some return with the old one with the tired check valves inside. New pump requires more force since the spring is new but I think what determines the amount of pumped fuel is the travel of the rod that can be adjusted with gaskets. I replaced my fuel hose with a transparent one so I can see what is happening inside, after a "flight"
test I saw bubbles inside the hose which is normal and I guess that means low fuel press. Maybe the transparent fuel hose which is softer reliefs pressure, I need more time to have a better picture.

Thomas
 
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------------- New pump requires more force since the spring is new but I think what determines the amount of pumped fuel is the travel of the rod that can be adjusted with gaskets. -----------------------
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Thomas

Hi Thomas,

I agree that the amount (volume) of fuel pumped is determined by the travel of the rod which can be adjusted with gaskets.

The rod (or in the case of other cars , the operating lever), pulls down on the internal diaphragm, this draws in a certain amount (volume) of fuel.

But it's the internal compression spring that pushes the diaphragm up to push fuel out of the pump and therefore determines the (amount of) fuel pressure in conjunction with diaphragm area (Pressure = (spring)force divided by (diaphragm) area).

Many people don't understand this and wrongly assume that the pushrod, pushes the diaphragm up, ejecting the fuel.

The reason the fuel pump operates as described above is to provide a way for the pump to cease delivery of fuel (despite being driven by the engine) when the carb needle valve closes, otherwise the carb would flood.

If you don't believe me, simply consult any book on motor vehicle technology that covers the basics.

(I double-checked the above explanation of how a fuel pump operates in 'Light and Heavy Technology -3rd Edition', by MJ Nunney, page 156-157).


P.S. This lack of understanding often catches people out when they try to diagnose a fuelling problem - they check the pump, they get volume (flow), pass the pump as fit for use and move on to check other fuel system components and after that the ignition system etc. But they don't check the fuel pump pressure. There are gauges available, you're looking for 3.5 - 7 psi depending on engine carb requirements. This pressure probably corresponds to the ability of the pump to raise fuel to a certain height i.e. the weight of a column of fuel, but I'm not smart enough to work this out :)

Someone with a new pump might rig up a test with a long length of clear tubing and provide us with a benchmark figure for future reference.

AL.
 
Al your explanation makes sense and I have no reason not to believe it. Since we are getting deeper in fuel pump operation maybe you can explain this. When i first installed the pump I got an engine starving from fuel so I immediately removed the pump and found the operating level pushed in like the diaphragm was sucked in. I operated a couple of times with my finger and then it just popped out again. I have the feeling that fuel was trapped between the diaphragm and carburator and didn't aloud the pump to operate. This can also happen if you have an empty pump, press the lever with hand and at the same time block the output pipe with your hand, then the diaphragm stays sucked in. If problem continues in my case I might switch springs and put back the old one which is softer.

Thomas
 
Hi Thomas,

Maybe the new pump needed a little lubrication of the operating mechanism (I always lube new components before fitting) or perhaps there was a slight rough edge somewhere causing the diaphragm to stick initially? Once the engine has been run for a while, engine oil will have found it's way into the pump operating linkage. Has it been ok since?

From what you say, it seems that you have a pump that can be dismantled - v. interesting. I thought all modern replacement pumps were sealed units.

Talk of changing the internal spring, reminds me of when, back in the 1980's, I worked in a jet engine fuel equipment overhaul workshop.
One of the guys had a 126 which suffered from apparent fuel starvation when climbing hills. We dismantled the pump and found 1 or 2 coils had broken off from the compression spring. We had a spring tester, in house, and 'acquired' a suitable spring from our stores. Iirc it was stainless steel? Reassembled, the car went better than ever. Incidentally, I've often this type of spring failure on some other Fiat water-cooled engines, particularly the ohv 127 which I attributed to failure due to corrosion due to condensation damage.

Operating the pump and holding your finger over the inlet or outlet pipes is a common quick test of the operation of the internal valves. So I don't think what you experienced is unusual, providing the diaphragm returned to normal position when your finger was removed. If there is sufficient pressure in the pipe between pump and carb. the spring will be unable to move the diaphragm, so if you operate the mechanism, the diaphragm can't move? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding?


If you do dismantle the pump, it's important when reassembling that the diaphragm is not under any strain as this will add to the spring tension and possibly raise output pressure (maybe shorten the life of diaphragm also).
So, (IIRC!), the procedure is to assemble everything loosely, operate the pump as if you were trying to draw in fuel, tighten the screws on the body halves and then release the operating mechanism. This might not be necessary on all pumps, some have enough slack in the diaphragm or have a wavey shape on the moving section - you'll know when you start to reassemble the pump if e.g. the p.c.d. of the diaphragm holes is greater than the p.c.d. of the pump body, then you'll need to set it as above.


If you have the new (or old) pump apart, could you check the way it operates and report back. My previous post about pump operation was based on how a typical pump operates as described in a technical book, Fiat don't always do things the typical way :)

AL.
 
I noticed that oil is getting to the pump after only a few seconds of operation and after I noticed the problem I replaced with a seccond new pump with same results.
When I removed the pump i found that diaphragm was like all the way in (pushed) and it only returned when I operate the lever by hand. Now i can't tell if it was mechanically stuck or because of trapped fuel between pump and carb (finger effect).
I haven't open the new 2nd pump but open and close is pretty straight forward job to do, I will dismantle the old one and post a few pictures here. Thing is that from the time I replaced the fuel line it runs ok but I need more testing to be sure.
 
A small update here, after the new pump run for a few miles/kilometers it is now running smooth so problem is considering gone(y) I don't know maybe this particular pump need some braking:confused:
 
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