Technical Towbar and temporary towing eye question

[Herts Hillhopper]

Hi folks - especially anyone who has fitted a Panda towbar.

Those who've been here a while will have seen me comment that I will (one day!) add a towbar to my 4x4 Panda. But, looking back to a post by @SaltyBill from back in April has prompted me to ask this question...

In the photo in Salty's post, here https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/wesfalia-tow-bar-hook-installed-help-with-bypass-bosch-pdc.493554/ (from which a small part repeated below) you can see a short section of tube that's welded to the right hand towbar support bracket. Clearly, that is a threaded tube which the emergency towing eye screws into (nice touch).

You could say 'you don't need the emergency towing eye if you have a towbar fitted'...

True, except if you don't have the detachable towball with you and need pulling out from somewhere (or need to pull someone else out from somewhere), you will need to use the screw-in eye. Cut to the chase: do other makes of towbar also include this threaded tube that Westfalia clearly do?

[Side note: My Mac or Facebook seems to always correct 'towbar' to 'tower! - nearly posted

 

[Panda IIs]

Hi folks - especially anyone who has fitted a Panda towbar.

Those who've been here a while will have seen me comment that I will (one day!) add a towbar to my 4x4 Panda. But, looking back to a post by @SaltyBill from back in April has prompted me to ask this question...

In the photo in Salty's post, here https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/wesfalia-tow-bar-hook-installed-help-with-bypass-bosch-pdc.493554/ (from which a small part repeated below) you can see a short section of tube that's welded to the right hand towbar support bracket. Clearly, that is a threaded tube which the emergency towing eye screws into (nice touch).

You could say 'you don't need the emergency towing eye if you have a towbar fitted'...

True, except if you don't have the detachable towball with you and need pulling out from somewhere (or need to pull someone else out from somewhere), you will need to use the screw-in eye. Cut to the chase: do other makes of towbar also include this threaded tube that Westfalia clearly do?

View attachment 410748

[Side note: My Mac or Facebook seems to always correct 'towbar' to 'tower! - nearly posted

Hi @Herts Hillhopper I fitted the FIAT OEM part sourced on eBay (it is Westfallia) but genuine wiring (I refer you to Salty Bill's experience in the thread you list above). Its been probably three or four years since fitted mine but I'm pretty sure my tow bar did not include the towing eye threaded tube. Either this is a more recent design addition or, as you yourself point out there are different versions out there for Cross, 4x4 etc. SaltyBill's was Italian local car? You will certainly be hacking at the rear skid plate more than he had to!

Anyways; I will be interested to see how you get on. Cheers

 

[SaltyBill]

Hi folks - especially anyone who has fitted a Panda towbar.

Those who've been here a while will have seen me comment that I will (one day!) add a towbar to my 4x4 Panda. But, looking back to a post by @SaltyBill from back in April has prompted me to ask this question...

In the photo in Salty's post, here https://www.fiatforum.com/threads/wesfalia-tow-bar-hook-installed-help-with-bypass-bosch-pdc.493554/ (from which a small part repeated below) you can see a short section of tube that's welded to the right hand towbar support bracket. Clearly, that is a threaded tube which the emergency towing eye screws into (nice touch).

You could say 'you don't need the emergency towing eye if you have a towbar fitted'...

True, except if you don't have the detachable towball with you and need pulling out from somewhere (or need to pull someone else out from somewhere), you will need to use the screw-in eye. Cut to the chase: do other makes of towbar also include this threaded tube that Westfalia clearly do?

View attachment 410748

[Side note: My Mac or Facebook seems to always correct 'towbar' to 'tower! - nearly posted

In Australia we will never pull someone out attached to the towball. it is not strong enough, and it could break and fly into the drivers window. And kill the occupants, we have numerous stories of people being killed by a flying towball. Always use the tow Hook.
And our tow balls/ bars in australia are built much stronger than in europe.

Tow balls in 4WD recoveries can kill you

Another week, and more video's on social media of people recovering 4WD's using their tow balls. It sickens me to think that at any moment, another person could be killed because of a lack of

www.4wdingaustralia.com

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

In Australia we will never pull someone out attached to the towball. it is not strong enough, and it could break and fly into the drivers window. And kill the occupants, we have numerous stories of people being killed by a flying towball. Always use the tow Hook.

Interesting thoughts.

More interesting though is, looking at towbars from various makes available to me in the UK, only Westfalia include the threaded tube for the emergency towing eye to still be used. Without a towbar fitted, that emergency towing eye screws into a threaded hole in the crash beam behind the bumper -- but that gets removed and replaced by the towbar beam and so (except for a Westfalia towbar) the ability to use that emergency eye is lost when other makes of 'bar are fitted.

 

[SaltyBill]

Interesting thoughts.

More interesting though is, looking at towbars from various makes available to me in the UK, only Westfalia include the threaded tube for the emergency towing eye to still be used. Without a towbar fitted, that emergency towing eye screws into a threaded hole in the crash beam behind the bumper -- but that gets removed and replaced by the towbar beam and so (except for a Westfalia towbar) the ability to use that emergency eye is lost when other makes of 'bar are fitted.

if your serious about offroading, and possibly see yourself being pulled out one day , looks like you only have one option. The safest!

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

if your serious about offroading, and possibly see yourself being pulled out one day , looks like you only have one option. The safest!

Yup - starting to see it that way
Thank you
Pete

 

[The Panda Nut]

Well I just had to check. My towbar has the towing eye tube. The bar is not different on the cross. This was on my 2017 standard 4x4 and I swapped it over. The bar i think is a Westfalia vertical fitment removable ball. The bumper on both cars had to be cut but easily accomplished with a stanly knife. The best feature of this bar is the electrical socket plate bearings. After all the other makes of bar, and I have tried many its a dream being able to flip the socket down with a single finger. As for tow balls breaking off. We have the EU and its marvellous standards and testing regimes that will certainly prevent this. Cars run cleanly and economy is thoroughly tested to ensure that owners know what they are getting and standards are vigorously maintained. It also makes certain that all cars including german made ones are fairly treated in regard to road tax.......

In nearly 50 years of towing I have only ever seen 1 towbar fail. My brother in law bought a Towsure bar for his Peugeot 309. We towed our small 4 birth caravns to Devon. On arrival his ball had twisted back to an angle 45 degree off vertical the bar its self had twisted like a bit of toffee.. Not to be confused with Tow trust bars that are very well made indeed. I did have a bar on a Rrenault Savannah that creaked continually apparently because of poor manufacturing tolerances meaning support tubes fitted into the chassis legs were too short. It never came loose though.

If I thought there was a danger of the towball breaking off I wouldnt tow at all!!! Most cars are going to break well before the towbar / balls. UK towballs are teh same on HGV's as cars. If you pull vehicles out using a snatch tug technique I suppose you may break them especially if using a chain or strop with a huge breaking strain. I accept in the outback such tactics are necessary, but anyone attempting such Tactics with a small city hatchback like the Panda would tear the back put of it. ThePanda towbar makes use of the cross beam studs as a key part of its stucture. (and indeed the same nuts are used). I have never seen this before evean after fitting around 50 different bars to mostly different cars. It seems to me these small studs with 10mm nuts are designed to just hold that beam on, and its strength is in being bashed from the rear not used for pulling. The torque settings of all the fixings surprised my by how low they are too.

If you do get a bar, I do recommend the dedicated electric kit as its much much easier to fit. Mine came from a UK supplier in Scarborough. Much less than half the cost of Fiats own which they probably supplied anyway!

The TA is a seriously under rated tow car. It might not do its very long term reliability much good but its an easy stress free towing car. 400kg is practically undetectable.

 

[SaltyBill]

Well I just had to check. My towbar has the towing eye tube. The bar is not different on the cross. This was on my 2017 standard 4x4 and I swapped it over. The bar i think is a Westfalia vertical fitment removable ball. The bumper on both cars had to be cut but easily accomplished with a stanly knife. The best feature of this bar is the electrical socket plate bearings. After all the other makes of bar, and I have tried many its a dream being able to flip the socket down with a single finger. As for tow balls breaking off. We have the EU and its marvellous standards and testing regimes that will certainly prevent this. Cars run cleanly and economy is thoroughly tested to ensure that owners know what they are getting and standards are vigorously maintained. It also makes certain that all cars including german made ones are fairly treated in regard to road tax.......

In nearly 50 years of towing I have only ever seen 1 towbar fail. My brother in law bought a Towsure bar for his Peugeot 309. We towed our small 4 birth caravns to Devon. On arrival his ball had twisted back to an angle 45 degree off vertical the bar its self had twisted like a bit of toffee.. Not to be confused with Tow trust bars that are very well made indeed. I did have a bar on a Rrenault Savannah that creaked continually apparently because of poor manufacturing tolerances meaning support tubes fitted into the chassis legs were too short. It never came loose though.

If I thought there was a danger of the towball breaking off I wouldnt tow at all!!! Most cars are going to break well before the towbar / balls. UK towballs are teh same on HGV's as cars. If you pull vehicles out using a snatch tug technique I suppose you may break them especially if using a chain or strop with a huge breaking strain. I accept in the outback such tactics are necessary, but anyone attempting such Tactics with a small city hatchback like the Panda would tear the back put of it. ThePanda towbar makes use of the cross beam studs as a key part of its stucture. (and indeed the same nuts are used). I have never seen this before evean after fitting around 50 different bars to mostly different cars. It seems to me these small studs with 10mm nuts are designed to just hold that beam on, and its strength is in being bashed from the rear not used for pulling. The torque settings of all the fixings surprised my by how low they are too.

If you do get a bar, I do recommend the dedicated electric kit as its much much easier to fit. Mine came from a UK supplier in Scarborough. Much less than half the cost of Fiats own which they probably supplied anyway!

The TA is a seriously under rated tow car. It might not do its very long term reliability much good but its an easy stress free towing car. 400kg is practically undetectable.

Maybe i didnt make myself clear, I am only talking about recovering a stuck vehicle. Not towing a caravan or trailer. I thought that was obvious.
A stuck vehicle in Australia , lets say in mud, a river or deep soft sand, Should never be recovered by another vehicle with the strap attached to the towball... EVER! ( we make dedicated hooks with heavy duty pins, which connect to the shaft the towball connect to, we also use the OEM recovery points./
this is the case i would assume around the world ( as a stuck vehicle, even a panda needs considerably more KN of force to be pulled free.
Just because your tow ball hasn't snapped off and taken out a driver doesn't mean it wont. So many deaths in Australia from people being struck by towballs being ripped off. Last i can remember was this year, a mother was hit in the throat , died from the towball flying through the window.
They do not manufacture Tow balls to withstand that kind of force. i am certain westfalia would have it written somewhere that recovery from the tow ball is prohibited.


If you need to recover a vehicle you must use the TOW HOOK. Tow balls are for towing trailers. not pulling vehicles out of the mud ,etc.
Just because it hasn't broken yet wont mean it never will. Stop doing it.

PS; if you have ever seen an Aussie towbar and ball. You will realise that what you have in the EU, are toothpicks in comparison. Toothpicks.

 

[SaltyBill]

EU vs Aussie tow bar, no comparison. !

 

[Panda IIs]

EU vs Aussie tow bar, no comparison. !

Well, no comparison, yes and no .

I agree with you completely, that a tow bar is designed to tow a trailer and therefore even a braked trailer has an all-up weight limit that still only gets equates to smaller cars but we do tow car trailers with cars on...

The Aus Reese tow bar you show are the same as those I encountered in Houston Tx. and are the standard in N America I believe. They come in two sizes and are removable via the 2" or smaller option 1 1/2" (or thereabouts) box section to which the ball is attached (in the US there are two different tow ball sizes too I believe). This box section is attached to the vehicle via a steel pin which I'm guessing is really the weakest link and would fail in shear. A snatched load from a chain or strop will almost certainly exceed the tow bar rating whichever continent you are on when recovering a vehicle and then present the risk of injury described.

As an aside, while I was in Tx I had a FIAT 500 (built in Mexico) to which a I had a towbar fitted to carry a bike rack, this located directly in the box section hole where the towbar was removed from. When I left the US I had the bike carrier shipped to the UK with my stuff (Thule brand) but can't get a US style towbar "officially" here due to the different standards. I figured one day I would weld an appropriate sized steel box to a towbar structure to utilise the bike carrier but the need never arose.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Maybe i didnt make myself clear, I am only talking about recovering a stuck vehicle. Not towing a caravan or trailer. I thought that was obvious.
A stuck vehicle in Australia , lets say in mud, a river or deep soft sand, Should never be recovered by another vehicle with the strap attached to the towball... EVER! ( we make dedicated hooks with heavy duty pins, which connect to the shaft the towball connect to, we also use the OEM recovery points./
this is the case i would assume around the world ( as a stuck vehicle, even a panda needs considerably more KN of force to be pulled free.
Just because your tow ball hasn't snapped off and taken out a driver doesn't mean it wont. So many deaths in Australia from people being struck by towballs being ripped off. Last i can remember was this year, a mother was hit in the throat , died from the towball flying through the window.
They do not manufacture Tow balls to withstand that kind of force. i am certain westfalia would have it written somewhere that recovery from the tow ball is prohibited.


If you need to recover a vehicle you must use the TOW HOOK. Tow balls are for towing trailers. not pulling vehicles out of the mud ,etc.
Just because it hasn't broken yet wont mean it never will. Stop doing it.

PS; if you have ever seen an Aussie towbar and ball. You will realise that what you have in the EU, are toothpicks in comparison. Toothpicks.

I think we are a world apart in terms of the needs to pull vehicles from stickages! The worst we generally rock up with is a roadside ditch and most Pandas will extract themselves from these. Virtually no unmetalled roads in UK. We have to go hunting for them, and if we find one to play on there are many obstacles to be overcome before we are permitted to do so. In 55 years of driving I have only got stuck about three times and twice getting out and pushing while leaving the car running and in gear did the trick. The other time I was misbehaving in a works van well off road, and had to comendeer a Landrover to do the pulling, but even though half a mile off road I wsn't stuck like you describe, just short of traction. If I didnt watch Outback truckers I would have any comprehension of the conditions you are referring to!

 

[Mark Hurst]

Woo! This isn't something I had considered when I selected a Westfalia towbar, which someone else fitted for me. I then had someone 'point out' that I'd lost the use of the towing eye because the crash bar was removed. Now I just went and checked and, sure enough, I have both

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Woo! This isn't something I had considered when I selected a Westfalia towbar, which someone else fitted for me. I then had someone 'point out' that I'd lost the use of the towing eye because the crash bar was removed. Now I just went and checked and, sure enough, I have both

Yup - I think Westfalia are the only brand that include the threaded tube - and so that is what I shall be fitting to mine. Also seems to be the only one that has 'wings' on the end to add support nearer to the bumper's corners. Like most things - you get what you pay for, I guess.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Yup - I think Westfalia are the only brand that include the threaded tube - and so that is what I shall be fitting to mine. Also seems to be the only one that has 'wings' on the end to add support nearer to the bumper's corners. Like most things - you get what you pay for, I guess.

I did my usual and watched eBay like a hawk. My bar cost £125. I fully expected it to be for a 169 when it arrived but it was indeed the correct bar so I saved a ton of cash. Its worth getting the part number and searching using this as well as the car type and generla bar type as the odd ball entries seem to pop up in unusual searches. I have a huch that some of the Polish made removable towbars for the Panda may be both good quality and really good value so I wouldnt rule them out.