Technical Tough Ball joint

[CamperVanBeethoven]

Hi, just before I spend yet more money on this MOT (buying a bigger balljoint splitter) - is it possible to remove the suspension wishbone balljoint by removing its three bolts rather than splitting it with a ball joint separator?
One isn't accessible with a spanner but looks like it might be if the spring is compressed ...
Anyone ever tried this?

 

[bugsymike]

Hi, just before I spend yet more money on this MOT (buying a bigger balljoint splitter) - is it possible to remove the suspension wishbone balljoint by removing its three bolts rather than splitting it with a ball joint separator?
One isn't accessible with a spanner but looks like it might be if the spring is compressed ...
Anyone ever tried this?

Over many years I have rarely used a ball joint splitter big or small.
Just a large crowbar or similar to provide separating "inclination " to the ball joint at the same time as a good accurate wallop to the metal surrounding the taper with a large preferably copper, mallet to prevent damage, just leave the retaining nut on enough to protect the threads from misguided blows. Usually one or two blows is sufficient if accurate.
I learnt the accuracy part around 1970 when doing the same job on a Mk2 Ford Consul, I missed and hit my kneecap which actually rendered me unconscious for a few seconds, I had time to swear then fell backwards and another mechanic caught me before smacking my head against an engine crane, which would have involved even more pain.
It may help if track rod end off and suspension/disc etc moved to one side to allow a good swing.
Note a heavy mallet blow twice is worth a million taps with a "toffee hammer"

 

[bugsymike]

Just remembered a neighbour 30 years ago had a similar issue with a Lancia ball joint and gave up as pride stopped him asking me to help and the car was towed to the tip when he gave up.

 

[CamperVanBeethoven]

Over many years I have rarely used a ball joint splitter big or small.
Just a large crowbar or similar to provide separating "inclination " to the ball joint at the same time as a good accurate wallop to the metal surrounding the taper with a large preferably copper, mallet to prevent damage, just leave the retaining nut on enough to protect the threads from misguided blows. Usually one or two blows is sufficient if accurate.
I learnt the accuracy part around 1970 when doing the same job on a Mk2 Ford Consul, I missed and hit my kneecap which actually rendered me unconscious for a few seconds, I had time to swear then fell backwards and another mechanic caught me before smacking my head against an engine crane, which would have involved even more pain.
It may help if track rod end off and suspension/disc etc moved to one side to allow a good swing.
Note a heavy mallet blow twice is worth a million taps with a "toffee hammer"

Thanks, Mike

 

[CamperVanBeethoven]

I've tried using a chisel as a wedge in between hub and arm and pounding it with a one handed sledge - but space seemed too tight to hit the 'eye' directly.
I've shocked tapers out on cars, but the forces on a big van will make things harder, right?
Keen to find out if those bolts are removable instead without getting it up on stands, then finding I have to go on a 14 mile trip to buy a splitter after all...
I can't be the first to try, can I?

 

[CamperVanBeethoven]

Just remembered a neighbour 30 years ago had a similar issue with a Lancia ball joint and gave up as pride stopped him asking me to help and the car was towed to the tip when he gave up.

It was a Lancia - it was going to the tip one way or another

 

[CamperVanBeethoven]

Over many years I have rarely used a ball joint splitter big or small.
Just a large crowbar or similar to provide separating "inclination " to the ball joint at the same time as a good accurate wallop to the metal surrounding the taper with a large preferably copper, mallet to prevent damage, just leave the retaining nut on enough to protect the threads from misguided blows. Usually one or two blows is sufficient if accurate.
I learnt the accuracy part around 1970 when doing the same job on a Mk2 Ford Consul, I missed and hit my kneecap which actually rendered me unconscious for a few seconds, I had time to swear then fell backwards and another mechanic caught me before smacking my head against an engine crane, which would have involved even more pain.
It may help if track rod end off and suspension/disc etc moved to one side to allow a good swing.
Note a heavy mallet blow twice is worth a million taps with a "toffee hammer"

I felt that kneecap

 

[bugsymike]

I've tried using a chisel as a wedge in between hub and arm and pounding it with a one handed sledge - but space seemed too tight to hit the 'eye' directly.
I've shocked tapers out on cars, but the forces on a big van will make things harder, right?
Keen to find out if those bolts are removable instead without getting it up on stands, then finding I have to go on a 14 mile trip to buy a splitter after all...
I can't be the first to try, can I?

Working on my own often I have perfected a technic of standing on the crow bar whilst swinging the mallet, the crow bar is important as it encourages separation at the point of impact. In the photo is a Number Four Thor copper mallet and one of my crowbars, the orange jack is a 6 tonne commercial one I originally bought when working on a boat I had. Those tools have worked on 3.5 tonne Iveco Dailys and Fiat Ducatos and many others over the years.
Though nowadays at 70 if I couldn't break the taper with the first two blows I would have to sit down.
If you are replacing the ball joint I think you will even if you manage to undo bolts in place the taper will be harder to shift as arm will move more.
Note I don't spend much time polishing my tools as garage is damp and the "patina" is a rust preventative, honestly.

 

[CamperVanBeethoven]

Working on my own often I have perfected a technic of standing on the crow bar whilst swinging the mallet, the crow bar is important as it encourages separation at the point of impact. In the photo is a Number Four Thor copper mallet and one of my crowbars, the orange jack is a 6 tonne commercial one I originally bought when working on a boat I had. Those tools have worked on 3.5 tonne Iveco Dailys and Fiat Ducatos and many others over the years.
Though nowadays at 70 if I couldn't break the taper with the first two blows I would have to sit down.
If you are replacing the ball joint I think you will even if you manage to undo bolts in place the taper will be harder to shift as arm will move more.
Note I don't spend much time polishing my tools as garage is damp and the "patina" is a rust preventative, honestly.

I'm actually replacing both wishbones.
Thinking I can pound a wishbone that's off with both hands, all the cold hard fury at my disposal and at a healthy distance from my kneecaps.

 

[bugsymike]

I'm actually replacing both wishbones.
Thinking I can pound a wishbone that's off with both hands, all the cold hard fury at my disposal and at a healthy distance from my kneecaps.

I see what you are trying to do, if you jack the vehicle up towards the outer end of the wishbone on one side only it may compress the spring sufficient to access the difficult bolt, then work on the others normally.
Not ideal but may work.

 

[CamperVanBeethoven]

I see what you are trying to do, if you jack the vehicle up towards the outer end of the wishbone on one side only it may compress the spring sufficient to access the difficult bolt, then work on the others normally.
Not ideal but may work.

I have spring compressors which might help too. (Unless it's been designed to contain the bolt for safety reasons)

 

[bugsymike]

I have spring compressors which might help too. (Unless it's been designed to contain the bolt for safety reasons)

If you do it with a decent trolley jack at the outer end of wishbone to access that bolt it may still be a good idea to keep the jack in place to gradually relieve the tension, but do be careful.
It's important to know where the spring pressure is working.
I am trying to remember , will you be struggling around the driveshaft also.
It would be easier if ball joint were separated.

 

[CamperVanBeethoven]

If you do it with a decent trolley jack at the outer end of wishbone to access that bolt it may still be a good idea to keep the jack in place to gradually relieve the tension, but do be careful.

Definitely. I do have a big trolley jack and stands too. (Doubt it's 6 tons, mind you )

 

[bugsymike]

If you had a 2ft long steel bar as a punch against the taper area , could you hit it better, further away from wheel arch area?
Not ideal but I did use a old halfshaft one time.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Reault used to rivet the ball joints in to the arms and you had to drill them out.. New balljoint came with bolts. But I agree with Bugsymike that bashing is best and much more fun!

 

[bugsymike]

I remember the Renault rivets, they did have a dimple in to centre the drill bit, but still annoying.
Probably trying to boost the sale of complete lower wishbones.

 

[Cornish Ian]

If you had a 2ft long steel bar as a punch against the taper area , could you hit it better, further away from wheel arch area?
Not ideal but I did use an old halfshaft one time.

“big van will make things harder”

I used to do similar on a few cars where space was tight. I had a few different lengths of Morris minor torsion bars that doubled up as socket breaker bars.

I did a few years on HGVs and tractors and some of those joints were a reasonable size and needed a big hammer but in reality they were easier as there was more space. I found the most useful and successful thing for anything a bit stubborn was a small bottle jack that we could use to put some pressure on the taper. Unscrew the nut past the nylon or locking medium and sometimes the jack would break the taper even without a hammer. Weight of a HGV tractor unit can be quite a persuader.
I’ve even used it with a lever when space was tight. Never failed especially when combined with a sharp tap.

 

[Cornish Ian]

If you had a 2ft long steel bar as a punch against the taper area , could you hit it better, further away from wheel arch area?
Not ideal but I did use an old halfshaft one time.

“big van will make things harder”

I used to do similar on a few cars where space was tight. I had a few different lengths of Morris minor torsion bars that doubled up as socket breaker bars.

I did a few years on HGVs and tractors and some of those joints were a reasonable size and needed a big hammer but in reality they were easier as there was more space. I found the most useful and successful thing for anything a bit stubborn was a small bottle jack that we could use to put some pressure on the taper. Unscrew the nut past the nylon or locking medium and sometimes the jack would break the taper even without a hammer. Weight of a HGV tractor unit can be quite a persuader.
I’ve even used it with a lever when space was tight. Never failed especially when combined with a sharp tap.

 

[CamperVanBeethoven]

Right, here's what happened, folks.
Got the van up on stands, turned the steering to give good access, slackened off the nut a few turns, got a jack under the nut, and raised it till the nut was bearing most of the weight of the van.
Couple of good swings with the wee sledgehammer and did it separate?
Did it ****!
I had no means of bearing down hard on the wishbone so there was no real separating force at play.
Just before I gave up and went to buy a big joint splitter, I had a last search on youtube and found THIS technique:
Jack under the nut, raise until fully laden, insert a steel wedge (chisel) between wishbone and balljoint flange - then lower the jack...
BANG. Joint split! No hammering, sweet as nut. ❤

 

[bugsymike]

What ever works eh!