Technical  Timing Belt Time

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Technical  Timing Belt Time

sorry mate, forgot to respond to your query on exhaust/manifold connection... mine is just flare on downpipe which mates to flare on manifold - bit basic lol. Bolts and 2 springs similar to your illustration - bit of copper grease. When I fitted new downpipe 10yrs back the old one was worn away. Not sure about the torque of the bolts, but been no trouble since. I thinl the key is to make sure that rear gearbox/engine mounting is good - you can judge it by how much gear lever moves!
I'm glad you mentioned it - I'll check it while it's up on blocks - get some more grease on. What's best high temperature grease?
Generally when fitting that type of gasket and spring arrangement I have noted that the conical gasket is actually impregnated with some form of graphite by the feel of it, I don't like to rub them too much as they also have sharp wire strands in them.
There are better modern heat pastes etc. but I generally just reach for the copper slip tin.
I have usually found flexy coil exhaust sections are the first part to fail.
As you say engine mounts play a big part, including any stabilisers. Wouldn't mind a £1 for every classic Mini front exhaust bell mouth broken by worn out stabiliser bushes to the bulkhead from side of engine.:)
 
What's best high temperature grease?
Perhaps a "moly", molybdenum disulphide grease,

It ant arf set my carpal tunnel off
I used to suffer from carpal tunnel syndrome, to the extent that I could only sleep lying on my back, otherwise I would have to recover from an arm that felt dead. Recovery time was sometimes several hours after waking! I had the worst wrist operated on many years ago, and when the other deteriorated that was done more recently. No problems since.
 
From memory the ones I worked on had a step on the conical shaped head bolts, so once the 10mm nuts were tightened correctly the springs couldn't be over compressed, maybe they learnt from the early versions.:) I know the one on the 1997 Ducato 2.8DTi 122hp engine that went into my boat was like that, as I modified it to join to my homemade stainless steel 4 inch water cooled exhaust complete with heat lagging.
Been pretty grim hereabouts this last week (kept getting rained -off, and I'm working on drive between ours and next door which acts as a wind tunnel - it's always about 10 degrees colder with wind chill!... So finally got back under today (cam belt all sorted last weekend) to get some grease on that manifold/downpipe joint. So mines got a horse shoe affair with 3 studs and no gasket. I'll stick some pics on in case any help to anybody else...
 
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Sorry about that... can't seem to delete duplicate pic...
So as regards torque setting - here's my get-around: 3 nuts go on each stud - this helps keep threads from rust and also acts as 'torque indicator' as when last nut is flush all at at same tension on spring - must be about right as it's been good for last ten years . Couldn't feel any wear on manifold or any ridge on downpipe, so job's a good 'un I reckon.
Other job done today is to replicate the special tool for holding plunger back - I used mole grips, which work ok, but handle gets in way a bit. If I live long enough (...and am still able!) I got special tool for next time... also spring clip (old cupboard catch) would probably work...

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I feel for you, I have worked out in all weathers for a large amount of my working life and now long retired, I am glad to be able to get indoors if weather bad, it's no fun as you get older, memories of fitting a gearbox on broken down Ford Transit twin wheel scaffolding lorry at the side of a steep hill with the heavy rain running down all over me and through my overalls on my own, still linger on.:(

I see what you mean about the three bolt flange, it doesn't really allow exhaust much movement even with that spherical asbestos type gasket.
With it not having the later two bolt system with the spherical bolt ends allowing more movement and the stops on the spring compression must make it quite rigid.
Is your exhaust system a full length exiting at rear of vehicle, some of mine were much shorter and did an L shape turn exiting just behind the driver side door.
Although I am not sure how regulations etc. would be for that especially if traveling abroad. Most of my vehicles were work type vans or pick ups, so side exiting exhausts were less important re exhaust fumes, although I never had an issue with them and often drove with the window down.
By the way looking at some of your mounting brackets, do yours use rubber and canvas straps being of older design?
The later idea of exhaust hanging from rubber rings does seem to give a more flexible system better allowing for engine movement.
Another long term modification would if possible, be to fit the later exhaust manifold and front pipe with the two bolt flange and spherical bolt arrangement.
To see if even viable it may be possible to see if the exhaust manifold spacing is the same as the later engines, on the 8140. series I have a feeling they are, but not sure about the 8144.67 that you have.
You would have to go for a non turbo version, but at least that is easier to fit in some ways.
Apart from that the only thing you can do is make sure with your three nut arrangement that the springs are not too compressed, so only just keeping the gasket gas tight whilst still allowing movement to take the strain off the exhaust system.
Perhaps @Communicator can give further thoughts?
 
I feel for you, I have worked out in all weathers for a large amount of my working life and now long retired, I am glad to be able to get indoors if weather bad, it's no fun as you get older, memories of fitting a gearbox on broken down Ford Transit twin wheel scaffolding lorry at the side of a steep hill with the heavy rain running down all over me and through my overalls on my own, still linger on.:(

I see what you mean about the three bolt flange, it doesn't really allow exhaust much movement even with that spherical asbestos type gasket.
With it not having the later two bolt system with the spherical bolt ends allowing more movement and the stops on the spring compression must make it quite rigid.
Is your exhaust system a full length exiting at rear of vehicle, some of mine were much shorter and did an L shape turn exiting just behind the driver side door.
Although I am not sure how regulations etc. would be for that especially if traveling abroad. Most of my vehicles were work type vans or pick ups, so side exiting exhausts were less important re exhaust fumes, although I never had an issue with them and often drove with the window down.
By the way looking at some of your mounting brackets, do yours use rubber and canvas straps being of older design?
The later idea of exhaust hanging from rubber rings does seem to give a more flexible system better allowing for engine movement.
Another long term modification would if possible, be to fit the later exhaust manifold and front pipe with the two bolt flange and spherical bolt arrangement.
To see if even viable it may be possible to see if the exhaust manifold spacing is the same as the later engines, on the 8140. series I have a feeling they are, but not sure about the 8144.67 that you have.
You would have to go for a non turbo version, but at least that is easier to fit in some ways.
Apart from that the only thing you can do is make sure with your three nut arrangement that the springs are not too compressed, so only just keeping the gasket gas tight whilst still allowing movement to take the strain off the exhaust system.
Perhaps @Communicator can give further thoughts?
Ah, the 'joys' of scrauming under vehicles! - yeah, mine is short - comes out side - just supported on those 4 rubber rings - i added an extra at end when fitting a short extension as when I got van it didn't protrude beyond body - fumes were getting pulled back into van through a gas vent in floor in underseat locker with water heater. Driving with window down would be a luxury! She got sliding door glass - can't even reach mirror to adjust lol - bit like the early Minis. Did you ever slam the door on a Mini and the glass fell out? When self tapping screws rusted away lol. Happy days or what..?

Need to get back under... I found my original reference figures - NOT 22Nm, but 22mm of spring! So tighten down till springs measure 22mm. I'll report back... It'll be interesting to see what my 3 nut 'system' compresses spring down to...
 
Ah, the 'joys' of scrauming under vehicles! - yeah, mine is short - comes out side - just supported on those 4 rubber rings - i added an extra at end when fitting a short extension as when I got van it didn't protrude beyond body - fumes were getting pulled back into van through a gas vent in floor in underseat locker with water heater. Driving with window down would be a luxury! She got sliding door glass - can't even reach mirror to adjust lol - bit like the early Minis. Did you ever slam the door on a Mini and the glass fell out? When self tapping screws rusted away lol. Happy days or what..?

Need to get back under... I found my original reference figures - NOT 22Nm, but 22mm of spring! So tighten down till springs measure 22mm. I'll report back... It'll be interesting to see what my 3 nut 'system' compresses spring down to...
Ha,ha, you must have had a posh Mini I had to rely on the interior mirror version, though I recall having to fit the window slide guides and as you say the screws often fell out.
I had a customer with a Cherokee Sun Voyager Motorhome and the only door to get in was down the side of the vehicle, also being LHD and so wide doing any external adjustment was a major operation. Cheers Mike
 
Ha,ha, you must have had a posh Mini I had to rely on the interior mirror version, though I recall having to fit the window slide guides and as you say the screws often fell out.
I had a customer with a Cherokee Sun Voyager Motorhome and the only door to get in was down the side of the vehicle, also being LHD and so wide doing any external adjustment was a major operation. Cheers Mike
Yeah it was that posh the subframe went soon after lol... yeah it's a major operation adj mirrors - on last run a big wagon went past at speed and blew driver's mirror in - had to go miles before I could pull in to get out and adjust it. I've made several attempts at repair to tighten balljoint... Still available (or were when I last looked...) - a new one is on the list of many jobs...
I remember an Autoking we looked at in Leicester around 25 yrs ago had no passenger door (extra gas storage..? bigger fridge? I can't remember) but the drop down bed had been removed so we moved on. It did still have a driver's door though. Never seen a british -built 'A' Class (as far as I know the Autoking is unique in this regard) without...
Well I'm out of action here - a big block of wood fell on mi foot which has triggered gout and I can hardly put my foot to floor... I need to get some more cherries down!
Any way, meanwhile here's a pic of the finished regreased manifold to downpipe connection - I doublt you be able to clamp it down to 2mm though...


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Fitted a few mini subframes in the old days and welded the panels behind that they mount to etc. Never quiet when minis and Austin 1100s etc. where on the road.
Re the exhaust could you use Steel locking nuts (as opposed to nylon melting ones) rather than extra nuts locked together or use a tube inside the spring at the correct length so when tight the spring had correct compression so similar effect to the later swivel head bolts that had a fixed length once nut tightened. 2mm sounds a bit tight, how is that figure measured, sure it wasn't 20mm?
Foot sounds painful, we always took the pi** out of people with gout, saying it was all the rich living they had.;)
 
Fitted a few mini subframes in the old days and welded the panels behind that they mount to etc. Never quiet when minis and Austin 1100s etc. where on the road.
Re the exhaust could you use Steel locking nuts (as opposed to nylon melting ones) rather than extra nuts locked together or use a tube inside the spring at the correct length so when tight the spring had correct compression so similar effect to the later swivel head bolts that had a fixed length once nut tightened. 2mm sounds a bit tight, how is that figure measured, sure it wasn't 20mm?
Foot sounds painful, we always took the pi** out of people with gout, saying it was all the rich living they had.;)
Sorry missed a 2 off there mate, should read 22mm... (which I still think is too much compression tbh)
good idea re tube, but wouldn't it interfere with action of said springs
I hope you're not implying I'm wealthy :ROFLMAO:
Not Nyloc mate - probably used brass nuts as they were to hand...
I think the 22mm figure came from the chris.wildsky site - I'm surprised this site is still up must've been up over 20 yrs...
http://www.wildsky19.plus.com/Ducato/intial_page.html - some good info on here (and a woeful tale...)
 
Sorry missed a 2 off there mate, should read 22mm... (which I still think is too much compression tbh)
good idea re tube, but wouldn't it interfere with action of said springs
I hope you're not implying I'm wealthy :ROFLMAO:
Not Nyloc mate - probably used brass nuts as they were to hand...
I think the 22mm figure came from the chris.wildsky site - I'm surprised this site is still up must've been up over 20 yrs...
http://www.wildsky19.plus.com/Ducato/intial_page.html - some good info on here (and a woeful tale...)
Ha,ha, did sound a bit tight, I prefer to work in imperial as I was taught in school.
So not really paying for "rich living"? We used to have a storeman who had been a Major in the army who had Gout so we always took the pi**about all the Port he drank at Officers meals, he was an interesting bloke though, well into his 70s and even then when a salesman thought he would query his unarmed combat skills, he put the guy on the floor effortlessly. He had been in the VW works in Germany just after the WW2.
I have seen Nylock nuts used on exhausts by fast fit "specialists" stupid!
I did see the comment about 22mm on that old site you mentioned, I see it was written on Velum, so it must be very old.;););)
Personally I would use experience and feel re spring tension, as no guarantee that the springs are original design or spec. after all this time.
I see he also mentions a Stainless steel exhaust although I have seen many of those that though not rusting they do tend to fracture as they are a more brittle form of stainless steel in many cases, what I call "catering quality" unlike the marine spec. I used on my boats in the past.
 
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