Technical Timing Belt Time

[lightweightmick]

2.5D non turbo 8144.67 SOFIM - Any tips on removing the spring loaded tensioner? Seemed like a good idea to replace it... (at the time...) - [I've had this old girl for 25 yrs now and when I did the water pump in 2016 I re-fitted the original as it looked ok - just 12k miles ago]
Spent all afternoon yesterday trying to tap it out but there's not much room lol even with the alternator backed up - so, small hammer and patience and plenty spray lube, but it's not budging...
Coastal Motorhomes have some good pics of the water pump - a pic of the back shows mostly void with the tensioner being secured at either end, so can't be much resistance to overcome surely, even with 'dissimilar metals' corrosion.
I can't get heat on it practically... and I don't really want to take the water pump off, though it's looking like the only option...
Has anyone tried drilling a hole to try and twist it? ...can't get mole grips on as it's too tight.
Just thought I'd put this out there before taking pump off, if someone else has had same issue and came up with a novel removal method...
Otherwise she's doing well for 39! - recent MOT pass just with advisories on headlamp refectors - which was relatively an easy fix, and managed to keep RHD lenses!

The other thing - the tension rollers coming off are both same diameter, whereas the kit supplied are different 64mm and approx 67mm. Now, I replaced the upper tension roller (deflection) back in 2005 with the part supplied by a Fiat dealership. Question is, did I fit the wrong part - should both be same dia. on this age of vehicle (1st reg 1987)? I think later 2.8L engines have the 2 different sizes but not sure about this earlier one.
Cheers anyway, we'll get there!

 

[jackwhoo]

@bugsymike

Be 100% careful of order of spacers either side of belt cover

 

[bugsymike]

I was trying to recall. As you say and this photo may show the void where the tensioner spring sits is only really accessible with the water pump off, which is not a lot of help for you
Most of my work on them was when used in Iveco Daily's with the 8140. series and they didn't use the water pump as an engine mount also.
I seem to recall a metal cap over the spring where it engages with the timing belt tensioner.
Apart from lots of lubricant and maybe tapping the end cap so the spring starts to bounce back and forth may help free it off from whatever corrosion is stopping it. Obviously as you will know the spring needs to be able to correctly tension the belt before locking up the tensioner. Although the ones I worked on were along way from new they were corrosion free around that spring.
If you are forced to remove the water pump I assume you would probably replace it and hopefully get a new bypass tube with good rubber seals where it engages with the cylinder head if you have to disturb it. I always put rubber grease around that to ensure a damage free engagement.
I have come across different tensioner and guide pulley/bearings, generally as long as it comes with a complete kit then hopefully the cam belt length is correct to match what was supplied.
Finally as @jackwhoo mentions regarding correct spacer fitment on timing cover as it can affect tensioner security resulting in terminal engine failure, but I think it was more on the later 2.8s. Although as you have worked on this one before I am sure you are familiar with it.
There is no mention of the spacers in this timing guide I have included for the 8144.

 

[lightweightmick]

I was trying to recall. As you say and this photo may show the void where the tensioner spring sits is only really accessible with the water pump off, which is not a lot of help for you
Most of my work on them was when used in Iveco Daily's with the 8140. series and they didn't use the water pump as an engine mount also.
I seem to recall a metal cap over the spring where it engages with the timing belt tensioner.
Apart from lots of lubricant and maybe tapping the end cap so the spring starts to bounce back and forth may help free it off from whatever corrosion is stopping it. Obviously as you will know the spring needs to be able to correctly tension the belt before locking up the tensioner. Although the ones I worked on were along way from new they were corrosion free around that spring.
If you are forced to remove the water pump I assume you would probably replace it and hopefully get a new bypass tube with good rubber seals where it engages with the cylinder head if you have to disturb it. I always put rubber grease around that to ensure a damage free engagement.
I have come across different tensioner and guide pulley/bearings, generally as long as it comes with a complete kit then hopefully the cam belt length is correct to match what was supplied.
Finally as @jackwhoo mentions regarding correct spacer fitment on timing cover as it can affect tensioner security resulting in terminal engine failure, but I think it was more on the later 2.8s. Although as you have worked on this one before I am sure you are familiar with it.
There is no mention of the spacers in this timing guide I have included for the 8144.

Thanks for the info. - yep I did that steel coolant pipe along back of engine when I fitted new water pump back in 2016 (doesn't seem like 10 yrs!) - using the adage (and experience) that 'one job makes another', I'm hoping to avoid that route... Looks like those mounting holes on alloy pump body could easily get cracked...
Currently thinking she might have a steamer which might be better than a blow torch... I'll persevere...

 

[jackwhoo]

Is this the tube type with spring in middle of tube?

 

[lightweightmick]

@bugsymike

Be 100% careful of order of spacers either side of belt cover

Not sure this applies to my early engine, but sounds like you have 'learned the hard way'..? I can't see any way these earlier covers could affect tension of the belt, but i may just have been lucky! This will be only be the 3rd time I changed the belt - shoud be the 5th going by the book. But this one looks good - no oil as I've dealt with oil leaks over the years. - Never short of a job on a van this age!

 

[lightweightmick]

The very same

 

[bugsymike]

Thanks for the info. - yep I did that steel coolant pipe along back of engine when I fitted new water pump back in 2016 (doesn't seem like 10 yrs!) - using the adage (and experience) that 'one job makes another', I'm hoping to avoid that route... Looks like those mounting holes on alloy pump body could easily get cracked...
Currently thinking she might have a steamer which might be better than a blow torch... I'll persevere...

They short bypass one I was thinking about was from the water pump directly into the cylinder head, about 2.5 inches long , or was that only on the later 2.8s?
Something like below.

 

[jackwhoo]

Not sure this applies to my early engine, but sounds like you have 'learned the hard way'..? I can't see any way these earlier covers could affect tension of the belt, but i may just have been lucky! This will be only be the 3rd time I changed the belt - shoud be the 5th going by the book. But this one looks good - no oil as I've dealt with oil leaks over the years. - Never short of a job on a van this age!

Yes I was warning about the later tensioner type, Sorry

 

[bugsymike]

Not sure this applies to my early engine, but sounds like you have 'learned the hard way'..? I can't see any way these earlier covers could affect tension of the belt, but i may just have been lucky! This will be only be the 3rd time I changed the belt - shoud be the 5th going by the book. But this one looks good - no oil as I've dealt with oil leaks over the years. - Never short of a job on a van this age!

Not me, but I have repaired quite a few in the past. What happens is the valves hit the piston and then bend the conrod by a few mm.
So I have always tried to avoid the "hard way", I listened to my lecturers at college back in 1969 and fellow mechanics as an apprentice. When they were not taking the mickey you could learn much from them.
The nut that hold the tensioner at number 13 in this photo for the later models also uses some stepped spacers to locate the plastic cam belt cover is the one that I think Jack and I were thinking about,and has caused the demise of a few Ducato Motorhome engines we have read about on the Forum.

 

[Communicator]

2.5D non turbo 8144.67 SOFIM - Any tips on removing the spring loaded tensioner? Seemed like a good idea to replace it... (at the time...) - [I've had this old girl for 25 yrs now and when I did the water pump in 2016 I re-fitted the original as it looked ok - just 12k miles ago]
Spent all afternoon yesterday trying to tap it out but there's not much room lol even with the alternator backed up - so, small hammer and patience and plenty spray lube, but it's not budging...
Coastal Motorhomes have some good pics of the water pump - a pic of the back shows mostly void with the tensioner being secured at either end, so can't be much resistance to overcome surely, even with 'dissimilar metals' corrosion.
I can't get heat on it practically... and I don't really want to take the water pump off, though it's looking like the only option...
Has anyone tried drilling a hole to try and twist it? ...can't get mole grips on as it's too tight.
Just thought I'd put this out there before taking pump off, if someone else has had same issue and came up with a novel removal method...
Otherwise she's doing well for 39! - recent MOT pass just with advisories on headlamp refectors - which was relatively an easy fix, and managed to keep RHD lenses!

The other thing - the tension rollers coming off are both same diameter, whereas the kit supplied are different 64mm and approx 67mm. Now, I replaced the upper tension roller (deflection) back in 2005 with the part supplied by a Fiat dealership. Question is, did I fit the wrong part - should both be same dia. on this age of vehicle (1st reg 1987)? I think later 2.8L engines have the 2 different sizes but not sure about this earlier one.
Cheers anyway, we'll get there!

I have a 2013 Skoda Fabia with alloy wheels. When about six years ago I wanted to access the rear drum brakes, I was unable to remove the wheels. After various attempts, I ended up replacing the wheel bolts, but not fully tightening them. I then went for a short drive round local country lanes, but it took several sharp bends before the bond between the wheels and the hubs gave way. Even though anti-sieze paste was applied, I had a similar performance earlier this year.

 

[Communicator]

2.5D non turbo 8144.67 SOFIM - Any tips on removing the spring loaded tensioner? Seemed like a good idea to replace it... (at the time...) - [I've had this old girl for 25 yrs now and when I did the water pump in 2016 I re-fitted the original as it looked ok - just 12k miles ago]
Spent all afternoon yesterday trying to tap it out but there's not much room lol even with the alternator backed up - so, small hammer and patience and plenty spray lube, but it's not budging...
Coastal Motorhomes have some good pics of the water pump - a pic of the back shows mostly void with the tensioner being secured at either end, so can't be much resistance to overcome surely, even with 'dissimilar metals' corrosion.
I can't get heat on it practically... and I don't really want to take the water pump off, though it's looking like the only option...
Has anyone tried drilling a hole to try and twist it? ...can't get mole grips on as it's too tight.
Just thought I'd put this out there before taking pump off, if someone else has had same issue and came up with a novel removal method...
Otherwise she's doing well for 39! - recent MOT pass just with advisories on headlamp refectors - which was relatively an easy fix, and managed to keep RHD lenses!

The other thing - the tension rollers coming off are both same diameter, whereas the kit supplied are different 64mm and approx 67mm. Now, I replaced the upper tension roller (deflection) back in 2005 with the part supplied by a Fiat dealership. Question is, did I fit the wrong part - should both be same dia. on this age of vehicle (1st reg 1987)? I think later 2.8L engines have the 2 different sizes but not sure about this earlier one.
Cheers anyway, we'll get there!

My 2.8jtd has a 64mm tension roller, and a 67mm guide roller. A different guide roller could have a minimal effect on camshaft timing.

 

[lightweightmick]

Ha ha, I've had to come in for another sit down... Anyways there is progress to report:
2 things:
1) axe
2) steam gun

Ok, so 1 sounds a bit drastic right? Well the sharp end misses the alternator just enough to get a bit more impact!
Gettng some heat on there has def helped too but it's still damn tight!

I'll post a pic when I've recovered a bit lol - will need to hold a small socket behind whilst hitting it... might need to improvise something to hold it with as I got a history of hitting my fingers with hammers!

Thanks for the input - sometimes a bit of moral support works wonder!

 

[lightweightmick]

It's out! I'll put some pics on later... more tea, then shopping... might even treat miself to a biscuit lol

 

[lightweightmick]

They short bypass one I was thinking about was from the water pump directly into the cylinder head, about 2.5 inches long , or was that only on the later 2.8s?
Something like below.

Must be later - mine's not like that - I seem to recall having to buy a silicone hose with ends of differing sizes as I couldn't obtain the correct part. It fitted well and never been problematic... (opposite end to the water pump though) I had to replace broken manifold - it would be a good mod to alter the exhaust to be able to add a length of flexi..? Cracked/broken manifold a problem on earlier models due to bad rear engine/gearbox mount causing too much movement

 

[bugsymike]

Must be later - mine's not like that - I seem to recall having to buy a silicone hose with ends of differing sizes as I couldn't obtain the correct part. It fitted well and never been problematic... (opposite end to the water pump though) I had to replace broken manifold - it would be a good mod to alter the exhaust to be able to add a length of flexi..? Cracked/broken manifold a problem on earlier models due to bad rear engine/gearbox mount causing too much movement

It does sound like yours is slightly different to the later versions and it was many years ago I used to work on them. When I look back it surprises me how time has flown by.
I never had issues with the Iveco manifolds being RWD. The later fexible cone gasket with springs and bolts seemed to work ok on Ducato exhaust manifolds to front pipe, what does yours have?.
My first was an Iveco Daily 35/8 swb van, like an idiot I bought after an auction for a reduced price without listening to the engine, when I got the keys and fired it up no. 3 big end was knocking and auction accountant refused to cancel cheque. Drove it home carefully (did get to 60mph by free wheeling down hill alledgedly) it was a 95/96 N. Reg. 2.5 indirect injection 80Hp. That was the start of the learning curve on that engine range. Local engine shop told me the crank was bent so they could not grind it, this turned out to be a load of bo**cks as no sooner than I got home they rang to say "miraculously" they had found a good complete crank with new bearing shells at at a stupidly high price which I declined. I made a point of letting my other friends in the motor trade know,. (silly idea to try and rip off a local in a small town!) Luckily for me a son in law had a contact at the local mini bus depot that used those engines, shortly after he drove up in a pick up with a collection of five "blown complete engines" I could rob for bits. When I say blown some had holes in the block where a conrod had escaped. Usually on these the reason was obvious the garage "bus mechanic" had adjusted the max revs on the injection pump, one thing a big heavy commercial diesel engine doesn't like is screaming. Since then I have been able to improve the performance on one I put in a boat to almost match it's petrol V6 3.75litre engine I replaced it with, all at less than 3700 rpm, that was the 2.8 TDi version and ran reliably for over four years before selling on. Since that first one I had five Daily's varying from the original SWB van to LWB ones, Extended LWB, a Crew cab twin wheel Pick up and finally my favourite a a 35C13 SWB van, so a 130 Hp six speed that would turn on a sixpence (for a commercial with a car trailer) with a gross weight limit of 3.5 tonnes at the same time as towing 3.5 tonnes legally, so all in all a very good work horse and sad to say a lot easier to access when working on it than the FWD Ducato, although I did own one of those and also worked on several for customers and later the Citroen Relays with the same 2.8 version. The Ivecos were heavier with their separate steel chassis so lower mpg, but best to me.

 

[lightweightmick]

 

[bugsymike]

Not a pretty sight.
Is the spring plunger recoverable?

 

[lightweightmick]

 

[bugsymike]

View attachment 488531

Bet you are wishing it was a Iveco Daily with good access.