The new Fiat Pand(in)a

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The new Fiat Pand(in)a

It could proper little weapon with the engine from a C3 in it...
Weapons... hmm, the amount of oil leaking onto your driveway in the first year will likely lead the US to try and invade your property from the PureTechs!

I've never been clear what benefit digital dashes confer? A bit like touchscreens.
As discussed, these days probably lower production costs. For the next current Panda refresh we're talking about, it's just an easy way to sell them as technology moves on. more to do with the other low cost / small competitors the buyer might be out to test drive the same day. Walks-the-walk of being a 'modern' car. It will appeal to younger buyers, who believe it or not, the current Panda's designer says the Panda is and always has been designed for. I know that's not the reputation it's had in the UK (at least in my circles when I owned them) but it's seen as a young persons car in its home market.

Digital dashes, when done well like in some Mercedes models at the minute, can show different combinations of the endless little dials and screens related to the drive. If you're concerned about your MPG, could be all the fuel stats, consumption, range, eco driving index. Or if you're into your performance your torque, launch mode, G-metre and the gimmicks, or it can be all maps, directions, virtual arrows floating in the view in front of you. I think some Peugeot models had a 'night vision' mode that could see things using the sensors that were nearly impossible to spot by eye. There are some quite cool ideas.

Having driven a lot of modern and outgoing Toyota / Lexus models recently, I can say that for such a large company with huge R&D, they haven't really worked out how to make them very useful. A lot of owners would admit they're a bit of a step back but inevitably just a sign of the direction things are going.

My favourite aspect was being able to switch to KMH when driving down south then back to MPH when home. Bit more practical. Then again, it had silly things too, like 'car wash mode' (see the attachment).

Oh…and although it was announced last year that Fiat have dropped development of hydrogen, seems it’s back on according to autorouteIT so god only knows!
I just read this weekend that BMW have come out ditching an EV strategy in favour of hydrogen! PROGRESS. The only thing Hydrogen falls back on is what EVs fell back on 20 years ago: lack of infrastructure. But completely overcome the nuisance of 45 minute fill ups.. finding a free and functional charging spot on route... the questionable ethics of manufacturing... and the short term wastage of using up some of the earths rare minerals that won't grow back!

BMW was quite all-in on EVs before they had to like some other EU makes. It's quite the statement that BMW, a very loved and highly regarded brand [somehow] is confident in hydrogen. Though I can't say I'm a fan of its cars, there's no denying people love them. They have been consulted by Toyota over the decades on improving manufacturing quality / reliability and more recently sharing Hybrid tech / development of the Supra and sadly, diesel engines in the Auris / Avensis which was a cruel, cruel curse to owners.... but. They've clearly seen some sense and probably derived some insight from that partnership about the wider world and practicalities over the EV strategy.y It's a hell of a statement for them to be moving that direction, being an EU based and enslaved to its legislation. If you ask me, it could be the first bit of the turning point we might see away from EVs as the adoption has become wider.

From what I can gather reading on various forums, speaking to people at work, friends, family - the older folks with the time, money and lower demand on their driving routes / schedules are buying EVs, really enjoying the experience, the technology and whatnot. Some of the younger ones (who are big earners) are buying them because they want a Tesla, or they're VAG-nuts and bought one of the IDs, they initially loved the cars, enjoy the acceleration and low electric tariffs but they admit they won't buy another unless there are monumental improvements to the range and the local infrastructure in terms of broken chargers, unstable range estimates in the ice and cold and normal cars parked in the limited charging spaces.

If you look at the BMW i3 and i8s, 150k cars the i8 was it not? You can get them for next to nothing now that they're older and the batteries are done. BMW has probably heard from too many of its customers who weren't happy about that and has done some serious adjustment of its strategy. Pretty sure they want to retain their brand, customers and money coming from other parts of the world too which don't see EVs as the future.

Fiat can afford to not have to make tough calls or risky investments on its own now as in the past regarding Hydrogen. They are part of a much larger Stellantis who can use the German playbook of combining huge R&D sums into its new platforms and models across a bunch of badges and selectively choose which ones use which grade of plastic or leather stitching and start to deliver much more competitive cars at lower prices. Fiat is a beneficiary now. It will benefit from Hydrogen if Stellantis' dabbling in it (and the likes of BMW / Toyota's success as pioneers) in the next decade(s).

And honestly, the Panda has been there and got the t-shirt! This car has been there through pretty much everything and Fiat, despite its flaws, hasn't been afraid to open its mind to some interesting one-offs and configurations! It's quite impressive in my opinion - but I'm biased.
 

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Weapons... hmm, the amount of oil leaking onto your driveway in the first year will likely lead the US to try and invade your property from the PureTechs!

They'd be sadly disappointed to find my parking spotless...the road under the Panda down the street though is worth at least a regime change.

Back in the day me and friend had matching puntos..we still have various gaskets lying around as they were considered a consumable.. especially rocker cover.

Although the incredible disappearing sump was also a rich source of oil spots.
 
Back in the day me and friend had matching puntos..we still have various gaskets lying around as they were considered a consumable.. especially rocker cover.

Although the incredible disappearing sump was also a rich source of oil spots.
I have a few little drips and spots that have appeared under the Punto, though some of that may have been from the oil cap incident still finding its way out.

on a more serious note, the mk2b multi use to leak a bit of gearbox oil. a lot of the 2003 - 2008 ish era Fiat Fire engines would suffer head gasket problems. The oil pans on many MANY fiats rot through and leak oil everywhere.... lets not mention the petrol tank recalls for corrosion for cars built in the 90s.

Yeah, so fiats do have an issue keeping there fluids in sometimes.
And sometimes, some people are not happy unless they are putting something else down.

I love how someone can so explicitly defend everything about a car brand, yet drive a different car, if their so good, why don't you have one ???
 
They'd be sadly disappointed to find my parking spotless...the road under the Panda down the street though is worth at least a regime change.

Back in the day me and friend had matching puntos..we still have various gaskets lying around as they were considered a consumable.. especially rocker cover.

Although the incredible disappearing sump was also a rich source of oil spots.
The 208 was a lovely little car. Best finished headlights and tail lights at the time of any car on our street. Comfortable seats and nice interior (especially compared to my Panda 169). I don’t not like it, I just think within the first year is far too soon for any oil leaking issues.

I went on to buy a DS3, pretty much the same car and has most of the same engine choices.

I am speaking from the experience of the 208 my mum owned that I did all the work on (franchised dealer bought / serviced) and the continuous horror stories and head banging against the wall experiences every single day shared on the Facebook group for DS3’s and they were all petrol PureTechs…. Cousin also had a 2015 one and my gf at the time a 2015 HDI and whilst all of ours suffered the usual model specific problems, guess which one had the actual roadside breakdowns… the PureTech.

maybe they were a bad revision… I don’t know. But their petrols pale in comparison to their diesels.

I’d rather replace a rusty sump (usually that doesn’t become an issue until 6+ years old if not longer though) and is a relatively easy, inexpensive fix that every Fiat FIRE engine owner (or their mechanic) know about. Not ideal for sure - but better than an unspecified oil leak that the dealer tells you ‘better to just keep an eye on the level than the cost of fixing it, which our warranty disclaims is our problem’ though.

Limited experience for sure but I’ll call a spade a spade and a lemon a lemon.

And anyway, it won’t matter, the future is apparently electric or Hydrogen 😉 let’s just hope they can make less leaky hydrogen systems when they go there ⚠️
 
So the best redeeming feature of the existing Panda most at risk from the Stellantis takeover is *checks notes* it's ability not to leak most of the time?

Ok I could have thought of better redeeming features I think but I bow to your experience. I suppose valuing the sanctity of oil seals this much would explain repeated Toyota purchase when such beautiful Pandas are still available.
 
So the best redeeming feature of the existing Panda most at risk from the Stellantis takeover is *checks notes* it's ability not to leak most of the time?
I think you can get carplay in a panda….

That being said my 8 year old 2015 golf has CarPlay so it’s a weird state of an affairs to find some companies still don’t offer it.
 
So the best redeeming feature of the existing Panda most at risk from the Stellantis takeover is *checks notes* it's ability not to leak most of the time?

Ok I could have thought of better redeeming features I think but I bow to your experience. I suppose valuing the sanctity of oil seals this much would explain repeated Toyota purchase when such beautiful Pandas are still available.
I could list all of the Panda’s redeeming features and qualities according to the gospel of myself but I’d only be mistaken for defending a car/brand irrationally 😉

Safety is the only reason I don’t own one currently. Stellantis is the reason I probably won’t own one in the future because Pand(in)a willing or not, when the Naples factory closes, we won’t see another one that isn’t a 208, or worse, 108.
 
But I don't quite understand why you have such strong opinions about the greatness of a car you've passed over twice at this point.

You wouldn't buy the old because you think it unsafe, you won't buy the new one which will be far safer because you had an apparently unreliable DS3...but it never left you at the side of the road. It also brought you into contact with your true love that Mercedes. So despite "looking at" and "considering" Pandas you've got no intention of buying one ever.

Which is fine...it's just strange you make so much noise about a car you aren't going to buy.
 
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But I don't quite understand why you have such strong opinions about the greatness of a car you've passed over twice at this point.

You wouldn't buy the old because you think it unsafe, you won't buy the new one which will be far safer because you had an apparently unreliable DS3...but it never left you at the side of the road. It also brought you into contact with your true love that Mercedes. So despite "looking at" and "considering" Pandas you've got no intention of buying one ever.

Which is fine...it's just strange you make so much noise about a car you aren't going to buy.
This would be a good point to remind you that this is the Fiat Forum, so discussion does tend to centre around Fiat models - hence why I’ll talk about the Panda in relation to most every topic I participate in. That’s the only model I’ve owned and can really have much of an opinion about.

The DS3 only gets mentioned because it’s based on the 208 platform which we all seem to believe the next all new Panda model will be based on. My thoughts on that are based on my limited dealings with said platform and cars.

I can think a lot of positive things about some care and some negative things about others.

And yes - spot on re: my buying choices. But might I remind you and your friend, car discussion - not necessarily psycho-analysis of me but I appreciate the offer 🤣

We are here to discuss Fiat… I can have owned them in the past and be quite positive about that time. I don’t have to have one on the driveway to prove anything to you. Hence… my ongoing discussion of Fiat.

I hope that clears things up.

In short, my thoughts on this thread are; glad to see the existing model getting another lease of life. Shame to see a PureTech in it - I’m sure it’ll drive well and hopefully remain dry underneath for owners. Could happen as if it could happen for BMW engines in a run of the mill Avensis, it can’t be that hard work for massive car companies to transplant. I wouldn’t say box checking or stopgap moves like this ever result in a desirable end-to-end owners experience due to quick afterthought engineering usually used to make it work and a lack of information on said engine within said car and usually little to no actual transparency on what they changed technically to make it work *deep breath*
 
@SB1500 it’s not just the lack of infrastructure, it’s also too energy rich to make hydrogen…the current ‘greenwashing’ is the same for EVs and catalytic converters before that…we’re just pushing the environmental impacts further up the chain
 
@SB1500 it’s not just the lack of infrastructure, it’s also too energy rich to make hydrogen…the current ‘greenwashing’ is the same for EVs and catalytic converters before that…we’re just pushing the environmental impacts further up the chain
I think todays latest EVs would be fine, legislated only in the most critical urban areas where moving the emissions up the chain and off from the tailpipe might actually help air quality / peoples heath. Even if imperfect for the environment. The non-national size demand for them will make the unsustainable use of rare earth minerals in production less of an issue too. Plus, if they concentrated these initiatives on like central London or big cities, maybe the government could go a bit further with financial help to get lower earners into them as well - which of course, on a national scale wouldn't work at all money wise. Going all in on them now (near future 2035) just doesn't solve any of the problems we're trying to solve.

I think the answers for making hydrogen can still yet be uncovered with the continuous research. Japan seems big on it. BMWs interest could spark wider Europe interest in it. Technology could come to Hydrogen's rescue.

But with the rare earth materials for EV batteries, science or technology can't make it regenerate at the rate needed (or at all) to meet production needs. That's an issue even if we all theoretically moved to near unlimited, clean nuclear power to generate infinite electricity affordably and have charging spots everywhere we need them. I seen somewhere that one of the materials, which can only be obtained from 3 countries globally, would nearly exhaust the entire supply for one of the countries just to supply every car in the UK today with a typical size modern EV battery - where is the sense in shooting for that?! (question for the legislators, not you!)

I expect Sunak to sign up for a forum account any minute now and stop hiding from all my posts!!! /s

Edit: I don't mean to de-rail the thread into another EV one - but I will acknowledge any other opinions or replies on the topic, always appreciated and read.
 
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This would be a good point to remind you that this is the Fiat Forum, so discussion does tend to centre around Fiat models - hence why I’ll talk about the Panda in relation to most every topic I participate in. That’s the only model I’ve owned and can really have much of an opinion about.

The DS3 only gets mentioned because it’s based on the 208 platform which we all seem to believe the next all new Panda model will be based on. My thoughts on that are based on my limited dealings with said platform and cars.

I can think a lot of positive things about some care and some negative things about others.

And yes - spot on re: my buying choices. But might I remind you and your friend, car discussion - not necessarily psycho-analysis of me but I appreciate the offer 🤣

We are here to discuss Fiat… I can have owned them in the past and be quite positive about that time. I don’t have to have one on the driveway to prove anything to you. Hence… my ongoing discussion of Fiat.

I hope that clears things up.

In short, my thoughts on this thread are; glad to see the existing model getting another lease of life. Shame to see a PureTech in it - I’m sure it’ll drive well and hopefully remain dry underneath for owners. Could happen as if it could happen for BMW engines in a run of the mill Avensis, it can’t be that hard work for massive car companies to transplant. I wouldn’t say box checking or stopgap moves like this ever result in a desirable end-to-end owners experience due to quick afterthought engineering usually used to make it work and a lack of information on said engine within said car and usually little to no actual transparency on what they changed technically to make it work *deep breath*

Well to clear some things up...

It won't be on a 208 platform, it'll be on the CMP budget platform which is first coming out with the brand-new C3 in Europe.

The Puretech you have experience with has only 40% parts in common with the Puretech I have experience with due to development..the new Panda that % will be even lower as it will have a timing chain...and probably be miller rather than Otto cycle..if they release a petrol version at all but it seems likely.

So this being the case I'm quite excited they finally have some new models coming..after FCA ran the brand into the toilet for everything that didn't have a 500 badge on it. It's good to see lots of new models and I hope that I'm in a position to look at a new Panda when they come out and I hope it's a good car.

What I won't be doing is saying the "last good Fiat was a mk1 Punto it's all gone to hell in a handcart since then"...
 
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Well to clear some things up...

It won't be on a 208 platform, it'll be on the CMP budget platform which is first coming out with the brand-new C3 in Europe.

The Puretech you have experience with has only 40% parts in common with the Puretech I have experience with due to development..the new Panda that % will be even lower as it will have a timing chain...and probably be miller rather than Otto cycle..if they release a petrol version at all but it seems likely.

So this being the case I'm quite excited have finally actually got some new models..after FCA ran the brand into the toilet for everything that didn't have a 500 badge on it. It's good to see lots of new models and I hope that I'm in a position to look at a new Panda when they come out and I hope it's a good car.

What I won't be doing is saying the "last good Fiat was a mk1 Punto it's all gone to hell in a handcart since then"...

There's a few things there I never knew! New platform - so my judgements and generalisations aren't valid (I didn't know - but consider myself educated now on the matter!).

I look forward to seeing what comes next as well in general. Perhaps all of the newly acquired brands will have a significant say in what comes next. My previous approach of looking at how they amalgamated the Corsa into the existing 208 clearly won't be the case with an all new platform.

I think it was a massive mistake for them to have focussed so heavily on the 500 in the last decade. Something so stylistic which did well with a particular audience they assumed would be popular in the other category models but the people carrier buyer, or the average Focus / Golf owner is probably looking for something less style focused and above all full of smart / practical ideas. Much as I loved the novelty of the fact the 500L had an optional coffee maker, it never carried the brand haha

If the Stellantis CEO giving them all 10 years and a blank chequebook is the case, it will be interesting to see what Fiat does next. Maybe they did lose a lot of engineering talent over the last two decades and had trouble competing with the pay packages that PSA and VAG could offer, for such a relatively small portfolio of cars and poor sales of all the new attempt models (now mostly all actually gone, come to think of it). With Stellantis they'll have more money, more resources and multi-million more going into this new platform than they probably could have had in the last decade.

I think I'll give it a break on being hard on what's to come next. Immediate models probably will just be rehashed existing Peugeot models as we've seen with the new Jeep and new 600. But the all new next decade stuff could be promising... I'll zip it and watch with curiosity.

I'm pleased to see that they are still developing some kind of ICE engine and that the new platform leaves room for that versus a tunnel vision sole EV platform that ... should things change, might never be suited to a low cost engine option.
 
Seconded, I don’t understand the logic in loving the brand but hating the product ?

Just smacks of brand snobbery.

Anyhow, everyone getting excited about hydrogen lets just clear this one up, they will not be making hydrogen engines cars which burn/combust the hydrogen gas, it is massively inefficient to do that and so any future hydrogen cars will still be electric.

The issue with this is cars that use Hydrogen fuel cells are highly complex, expensive and use rare earth metals…. Just like a battery.

The only one you can currently buy is a Toyota Mirai which is a£50k+ Toyota Corolla. Not exactly cheap.

And at the time of writing there are just 16 stations in the Uk where you can fuel it up.

Hydrogen is much harder to store and transport. harder to make and more and much more volatile than petrol.

As stated above Fiat spent years running the company into the ground, it is exciting to see new models coming and a future for the company we all profess to love. Having driven all sorts of Fiat, alfa, Lancia and other Fiat group vehicles over the years. From the 80s to current models, there is no theme that you would find in an 80s Fiat that you would find in a new one, they don’t corner the market in platform development, I am sure that any new fiats will still have the Italian flare we associate with them it’s just they will be under-pinned by a new/modern safer and cheaper platform than Fiat would have managed on their own. Actually if not for Stellantis which is 50% Fiat. We could have faced a future without Fiat at all.
 
As stated above Fiat spent years running the company into the ground, it is exciting to see new models coming and a future for the company we all profess to love. Having driven all sorts of Fiat, alfa, Lancia and other Fiat group vehicles over the years. From the 80s to current models, there is no theme that you would find in an 80s Fiat that you would find in a new one, they don’t corner the market in platform development, I am sure that any new fiats will still have the Italian flare we associate with them it’s just they will be under-pinned by a new/modern safer and cheaper platform than Fiat would have managed on their own. Actually if not for Stellantis which is 50% Fiat. We could have faced a future without Fiat at all.

To be fair I have no such confidence Italian flair will occur but at the same time a lot of the cars we've seen thus far have been short time scale reworks. The Corsa...was something ridiculous like 2 years from putting the GM design in the bin to car on the road later designs from VX made a better job of the underpinnings. Same for the 600 to an extent, if it wasn't for the Punto sized hole in the range left by FCA that car would likely have benefitted from more time on set up and design work.

It's entirely possible to build different cars from the same bits but it requires time and development to get the best out of things and at the moment the focus seems to be "build all the things we would have liked to if we weren't penniless". The lead time on the Panda does at least suggest it shouldn't just be a quick rebadge...

We'll see how it goes I love the look of the Centoventi so if they could make something like that happen at about sub 4ms long that would be cool. In the electric and hybrid era at least it can't have the god awful 5 speed box 🤣
 
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In the electric and hybrid era at least it can't have the god awful 5 speed box
I didn't think the gearboxes on the 208 (petrol) or DS3 (90hp HDI) or (120hp BHDI) were great tbh. The petrol gears and revs were particularly bad. Like the difference from the Panda 169 to the current model, just very dead feeling. Though the one we had was a 3 cylinder (I think..) non turbo so that could be why it felt that way. DS3 diesels were fine but much like the Avensis gearbox, no real precision to it.

I hope they come out with a decent but low cost auto. I don't care if it's slow or noisy, it's worth the trade off. Long as it doesn't self destruct by design like the Dualogic is known to after a while. Surely in the era of convenient auto EVs and Hybrids, they'll at least give the ICE options autos.
 
The latest hybrid gear seems to be dual clutch automatic with a built in electric motor. Obviously electric has no need for it...I saw a walk around of the manual car and it seems to have a 6 speed box.

The best thing to say about the 5 speed is it works other than that it has no real redeeming features other than the leather gearknob is nice.

We'll see, new C3 is very different to any other small car Stellantis currently make. The plan I believe is to keep the glass and overall silhouette and change body panels.

I rather like this render...

Fiat-Panda-blue-Carscoops-11111.jpg

More so than this...
mh7nbcyup1pboi3supb2.jpeg

It's probably going to be about GP Punto sized..which is probably why they are looking to extend the life of the original Panda for the home market as those streets are not going to get any bigger...
 
To be fair I have no such confidence Italian flair will occur
Well let’s be honest the last proper Italian flair that Fiat showed off was coupe shaped and 30 years ago.


It's entirely possible to build different cars from the same bits but it requires time and development to get the best out of things and at the moment the focus seems to be "build all the things we would have liked to if we weren't penniless". The lead time on the Panda does at least suggest it shouldn't just be a quick rebadge...
Arguably pretty much everything released under Stellantis so far consists of Fiat badger reskins of generic cars, the panda will be the first opportunity for Fiat to actually show they can bring something new and interesting to the market. Get it right and it could save the company, get it wrong and it could bury the company so there is a lot at stake for the new panda.

Really they need to find a reason for people to buy a new panda rather than something from Citroen, peugeot or Vauxhall

We'll see how it goes I love the look of the Centoventi so if they could make something like that happen at about sub 4ms long that would be cool. In the electric and hybrid era at least it can't have the god awful 5 speed box 🤣
Give the direction the Korean brands are going with their EVs the centoventi would not look out of place on modern roads, in some respects they may have missed the boat with that design as other cars with similar styling such as the Ioniq 5 have been available for some time
 
The latest hybrid gear seems to be dual clutch automatic with a built in electric motor. Obviously electric has no need for it...I saw a walk around of the manual car and it seems to have a 6 speed box.

The best thing to say about the 5 speed is it works other than that it has no real redeeming features other than the leather gearknob is nice.

We'll see, new C3 is very different to any other small car Stellantis currently make. The plan I believe is to keep the glass and overall silhouette and change body panels.

I rather like this render...

View attachment 437834

More so than this...
View attachment 437835

It's probably going to be about GP Punto sized..which is probably why they are looking to extend the life of the original Panda for the home market as those streets are not going to get any bigger...
I hope it looks like the above render. Quirky. There is a place in today’s market for it more now than a decade ago. A decade ago the buyers tolerance stopped at modern Mini / 500 and they were willing to spend more just for the look over practicality. Now with EVs and Kia / Hyundai stuff… or even just the Suzuki Ignis it’s nearly like coming out with an odd shape is what stands it apart. People will drive around in it. After the Kia Soul… the old playbook went out the window with most brands.

If Fiat have the freedom to design how they do, the way Citroen was allowed to when Peugeot took over then it’ll be fine. Alright the very weird and technologically breakthrough (or sometimes questionable) aspects from the 50’s DS to the 80s era funky estates were no more. But in the modern era Citroen still pulled off enough mass market appeal and odd design choices that were a hit. The DS3 was undoubtedly a wild design / one people liked for a long time. The people carriers Picasso and the spaceship looking ones since did anything but blend in. And the sold well. Weird interiors and instrument clusters etc. Citroen’s kept some French flair and brought some mad looking cars (Cactus anyone?) whilst using the Peugeot parts bin. There is flexibility and hope that Fiat can leverage it.

The current Panda is remarkably like the modern 500 in a lot of ways despite being a totally different place to sit and space to fill than the 500. From split side on, the headlights even have the illusion of being identical to the 500’s headlights from the same side on view… I wonder if Robert Giolito is still about and in a high role. Although it’s 95% the same ‘parts bin’ as the 169, something they did well was reshape it for the 2010s, initially some cool little ideas too like the folding front seat, rail rear seat, etc. they do have it in them to make something unique visually and practical. Even the Centoventi was a highly customisable interior to its core.

Having learnt that there’s an all new platform coming which from the design stage will have been thought out for Fiat and such… I’m a bit more hopeful.

And anyway, if history is to repeat itself.. they usually get scarily close of bankruptcy before coming out with a total saviour model. The Panda 169 in 2003… it’s about that time again.
 
Talking of renderings, quite like this mash up
 

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