Technical Tank sender to fuel filter pipe... 1999 1.9td M/Home

[LynPod]

Hello Everyone..

Here Again..

replaced Bosch (Button primer type) with new one as suggested it could have diaphragm perished.. owing to can not get it primed because of air in system... the new one is just the same.. when trying to clear air out of fuel line from tank... it is still after a good squirt has air at at end of button push...
So in other words..
No fuel in line and starting is long turns of engine before it fires... the engine has done 33,ooo from new so in my opinion can only be the fuel pipe from the tank sender to the filter somewhere has a leak in it .. I have been under the floor carpet to check the sender and to see if there was obvious leaking as it smells of diesel when driving in the cab... But took pipes off.. and they are original so could have perished seals.. I had one once before that mice had been chomping on a line and did the same.. (could not build up pressure in tank to keep fuel in line for starting)...

So if anyone has had this problem ... maybe you could help to get right pipe as there are endless numbers of them to choose from...

Summary...

1).. Bosch filter new with Primer Button on top... (this is the old one in picture and was not that old )..
2).. The filter to tank pipe can only be the problem... as will not stop air in priming... as is the first means of getting fuel from tank...
3).. Rubber Seal on sender on tank are OK...

Thanks

Lyn...

 

[bugsymike]

Hello Everyone..

Here Again..

replaced Bosch (Button primer type) with new one as suggested it could have diaphragm perished.. owing to can not get it primed because of air in system... the new one is just the same.. when trying to clear air out of fuel line from tank... it is still after a good squirt has air at at end of button push...
So in other words..
No fuel in line and starting is long turns of engine before it fires... the engine has done 33,ooo from new so in my opinion can only be the fuel pipe from the tank sender to the filter somewhere has a leak in it .. I have been under the floor carpet to check the sender and to see if there was obvious leaking as it smells of diesel when driving in the cab... But took pipes off.. and they are original so could have perished seals.. I had one once before that mice had been chomping on a line and did the same.. (could not build up pressure in tank to keep fuel in line for starting)...

So if anyone has had this problem ... maybe you could help to get right pipe as there are endless numbers of them to choose from...

Summary...

1).. Bosch filter new with Primer Button on top... (this is the old one in picture and was not that old )..
2).. The filter to tank pipe can only be the problem... as will not stop air in priming... as is the first means of getting fuel from tank...
3).. Rubber Seal on sender on tank are OK...

Thanks

Lyn...

As I mentioned on your earlier thread, I have had 03 Doblo sucking air at the clip joint where plastic twin pipes (flow and return) are attached to tank unit and to prove the point I ran a feed from a 5 litre plastic can directly to the fuel filter, this has the advantage of proving or disproving the other air source I have experienced on a customers Peugeot 405 diesel that uses the same filter assembly shown in your photo, in his case the fault was the fuel filter seals top and bottom were letting in air causing his car to start and then die shortly after.
On the Doblo as it was non turbo there was no fuel pump in the tank, it relied on the injector pump to "suck" the fuel to start which allowed air in , as you say on your vehicle there is a smell of fuel, presumably as yours has a pump in the tank so the source of that smell would be my starting point.

 

[LynPod]

As I mentioned on your earlier thread, I have had 03 Doblo sucking air at the clip joint where plastic twin pipes (flow and return) are attached to tank unit and to prove the point I ran a feed from a 5 litre plastic can directly to the fuel filter, this has the advantage of proving or disproving the other air source I have experienced on a customers Peugeot 405 diesel that uses the same filter assembly shown in your photo, in his case the fault was the fuel filter seals top and bottom were letting in air causing his car to start and then die shortly after.
On the Doblo as it was non turbo there was no fuel pump in the tank, it relied on the injector pump to "suck" the fuel to start which allowed air in , as you say on your vehicle there is a smell of fuel, presumably as yours has a pump in the tank so the source of that smell would be my starting point.

Think's Bugsy.. and nice to here from you again... Great Idea .. certainly rule out the problem if it is line to tank... I have a pop bottle of diesel and some rubber hose that will fit.. have a go tomorrow..

Lyn..

 

[cid]

Think's Bugsy.. and nice to here from you again... Great Idea .. certainly rule out the problem if it is line to tank... I have a pop bottle of diesel and some rubber hose that will fit.. have a go tomorrow..

Lyn..

Hi Lynpod, When I bought my 1996 1.9td, 16 years ago, it had a squeezable bubble in the fuel line after the filter. Presumably this was used to purge air from the system if you allowed the van to run out of diesel.It was badly installed so I removed it as I never run out of fuel. That was 14 years ago. Maybe you need something like that to get you going. It certainly looked like a cheap option. I hope this helps your situation. All the Best, Ian.

 

[bugsymike]

Think's Bugsy.. and nice to here from you again... Great Idea .. certainly rule out the problem if it is line to tank... I have a pop bottle of diesel and some rubber hose that will fit.. have a go tomorrow..

Lyn..

You may find a larger container such as a 5 litre can better as due to no fuel return going to the test can it will run out very quickly.
Re what cid mentioned some had a hand primer like outboard motor fuel tanks which in fairness was the better version generally, but yours as your photo shows uses the primer on the top of the fuel filter so doesn't use the other version.

 

[LynPod]

Hi Lynpod, When I bought my 1996 1.9td, 16 years ago, it had a squeezable bubble in the fuel line after the filter. Presumably this was used to purge air from the system if you allowed the van to run out of diesel.It was badly installed so I removed it as I never run out of fuel. That was 14 years ago. Maybe you need something like that to get you going. It certainly looked like a cheap option. I hope this helps your situation. All the Best, Ian.

Hello Ian... Yes I have seen these on older Talbot's but were usually perished and was just another 2 joints of letting air in... The best one is the one on now.. Bosch.. and it is a new setup...

Lyn..

 

[LynPod]

You may find a larger container such as a 5 litre can better as due to no fuel return going to the test can it will run out very quickly.
Re what cid mentioned some had a hand primer like outboard motor fuel tanks which in fairness was the better version generally, but yours as your photo shows uses the primer on the top of the fuel filter so doesn't use the other version.

Bugsy.. As you suggest I will get a black can of Diesel and try it out tomorrow.. (monday)

Lyn...

 

[LynPod]

Bugsy.. As you suggest I will get a black can of Diesel and try it out tomorrow.. (monday)

Lyn...

Hello Bugsy..

Did the "Pop Bottle Test" with Gerry can... as you said .. and worked "Tickety "Flippin" "Boo" No Air...

Unfortunately... I thought that the tank feed to filter was just a one piece pipe... But No!..
The Filter feed goes down to this plastic gadget bolted on the engine (1st Pic) one in and one out to the tank and twists and routes all over the place with at least 4 joins with rubber shaped connections and 2 electric connections .. situated next to oil filler and dipstick... which to me is asking for air faults...

So that's it!...

I give up and will sell it and go back to my Boxer 3's which I am used too... starts and runs great but I can't do with the 10 to 20 turns just to start it...

Lyn...

 

[bugsymike]

Well that is a shame, just when you are starting to get to the bottom of it. On the Doblo I mentioned it was a complete hose from front to back costing in those days £200, I just fitted a short length of fuel hose with some good strong crimped clips, total cost around £7.
You could try isolating and bypassing any parts you are suspicious of.
I have not seen the part bolted to the engine before , I suspect it is a form of fuel "warmer " for colder climates, so maybe it could be bypassed, perhaps others here can advise on that.
If it was me I would run a new length of the correct quality rubber fuel hose from the tank to the fuel filter with good quality clips and securely fixed which would get you back on the road again.
I do sympathise, I once had an old London Taxi which I drove to a show and had left a for sale sign on it, on my way back it broke down about 15 times, when I finally got home my wife said someone had rang having seen the Taxi, he had driven home 250 miles in less time than it had taken me to drive 40 miles! When I spoke to him I explained the situation and told him if he had been here I would have given him the **** Taxi! He told me he ran a fleet of them, knew the problem and was happy to come down and give me my asking price, so all was well in the end.

 

[LynPod]

Well that is a shame, just when you are starting to get to the bottom of it. On the Doblo I mentioned it was a complete hose from front to back costing in those days £200, I just fitted a short length of fuel hose with some good strong crimped clips, total cost around £7.
You could try isolating and bypassing any parts you are suspicious of.
I have not seen the part bolted to the engine before , I suspect it is a form of fuel "warmer " for colder climates, so maybe it could be bypassed, perhaps others here can advise on that.
If it was me I would run a new length of the correct quality rubber fuel hose from the tank to the fuel filter with good quality clips and securely fixed which would get you back on the road again.
I do sympathise, I once had an old London Taxi which I drove to a show and had left a for sale sign on it, on my way back it broke down about 15 times, when I finally got home my wife said someone had rang having seen the Taxi, he had driven home 250 miles in less time than it had taken me to drive 40 miles! When I spoke to him I explained the situation and told him if he had been here I would have given him the **** Taxi! He told me he ran a fleet of them, knew the problem and was happy to come down and give me my asking price, so all was well in the end.

Bugsy.. It is quite happy running from Gerry can and this gadget is as far as I can see from pics I found... is as you say.. a fuel warmer.. as it is in the thermostat housing... and also one way valve .. so there is the problem.. fuel returning because of the white gadget in the body of plastic fitting... it is simple to remove just one 13mm centre bolt... and out it will all come... and get attable... .. £60 for a new one if you can get them...

Lyn...

 

[bugsymike]

Things is unless you try bypassing it you will not know if that is where the air is getting in. If you feel it is that, could you put a short piece of tube in place of it as a test? If it works and doesn't affect anything else, possibly make it permanent.
Is the white bit a valve or just a plug to undo to clean or drain it?
Do you have a way of isolating at least part of the fuel line and then slightly pressurising it to check for leaks, unless of course you can see or feel any wet fuel patches along the pipe.
In general terms all a diesel system needs is a low pressure filtered supply to the high pressure injector pump and then a return to the fuel tank from that pump and the "leak offs" from the injectors.
I once converted a Peugeot 504 Family Estate petrol to diesel , a lot of work but every part was interchangeable from the two vehicles, the only part I had to fit was a return pipe to the fuel tank from the injector return on the now diesel version.
Another thing you could do is look on Peugeot Forums for more information regarding that fuel warmer and if it is a known problem area, as it appears to have a lot in common with Peugeot.
Just one final thought, if as I suspect that white plastic bit is a drain tap, would it be worthwhile checking that it is either tight or that the rubber O ring seal on it is not faulty?

 

[LynPod]

Things is unless you try bypassing it you will not know if that is where the air is getting in. If you feel it is that, could you put a short piece of tube in place of it as a test? If it works and doesn't affect anything else, possibly make it permanent.
Is the white bit a valve or just a plug to undo to clean or drain it?
Do you have a way of isolating at least part of the fuel line and then slightly pressurising it to check for leaks, unless of course you can see or feel any wet fuel patches along the pipe.
In general terms all a diesel system needs is a low pressure filtered supply to the high pressure injector pump and then a return to the fuel tank from that pump and the "leak offs" from the injectors.
I once converted a Peugeot 504 Family Estate petrol to diesel , a lot of work but every part was interchangeable from the two vehicles, the only part I had to fit was a return pipe to the fuel tank from the injector return on the now diesel version.
Another thing you could do is look on Peugeot Forums for more information regarding that fuel warmer and if it is a known problem area, as it appears to have a lot in common with Peugeot.
Just one final thought, if as I suspect that white plastic bit is a drain tap, would it be worthwhile checking that it is either tight or that the rubber O ring seal on it is not faulty?

Bugsy.. if I get time I will take it off.. and check .. it will run without it as proved with the "Pop Bottle Test"... but can't be sure what happens on a run.. so will try and figure it out ..

Lyn..