Technical Suggestions as no high pressure in Common Rail to injectors?

[wizbeeward]

We have a Fiat Ducato 3lt Multijet 160 2007 Motorhome. On a recent trip back home engine stopped, ignition light stayed on while travelling on Motorway. Put clutch in while coasting and re-started engine. Made it as further 1 mile to get off at our junction. On slip road off motorway same thing happened again. Managed to get safe location on the roundabout over the motorway. Rang recovery and got towed home. At this point i was able to drive from main road where tow truck dropped me onto driveway. Following day would turn over but not start. Had a Diagnostics guy visit who scanned for codes. It came with multiple codes, but kept cutting him off of the ECU indicating perhaps a Electrical fault. Fault codes were present and we have replaced the following items so far. Crank Sensor, Cam Sensor, Throttle Body and cable adapter. Original Throttle body was seized. Replaced fuel pressure regulator. Checked EGR Valve. Ordered EGR Solenoid to fit next week. Cleaned Manifold sensor. Checked all visible wiring in loom. All ok. Checked fuses and fuse box all good. Checked low pressure fuel pump in tank and all ok. Purchased Launch 2024 Diagnostic machine and this originally confirmed all fault codes the same as guy who ran his diagnostics. We now scan the engine and NO CODES are showing, but still will not work. Cranks but will not start. When running live data stream no pressure is being recorded at the 4 cylinder injectors. Bled the Common rail pipe connector to the injectors but don't seem to have consistent high pressure. Bleed 1 pipe which has high pressure fuel come out, but when proceeding to try to bleed the other 3 while engine is cranking no high pressure is present. Seems to be a high pressure fuel problem....Any thoughts appreciated.

 

[Communicator]

I am not an expert on the 3.0jtd, but when numerous electrical problems occur on an x250 or later model, the engine earth strap is first suspect.

Please be extremely careful when working on the hp fuel system. The pressures can be very high, an the spray is capable of injecting under the skin, resulting in blood poisoning. You could lose a limb or more.

 

[wizbeeward]

I am not an expert on the 3.0jtd, but when numerous electrical problems occur on an x250 or later model, the engine earth strap is first suspect.

Please be extremely careful when working on the hp fuel system. The pressures can be very high, a the spray is capable of injecting under the skin, resulting in blood poisoning. You could lose a limb or more.

Thanks for your reply. Checked all the earth straps and harnesses. Hubby is hydraulics engineer so aware of high pressure dangers. Have now removed the common rail to check for blockages and have attached a hose connected to common rail inlet to test high pressure valve. Cracking engine no fuel coming through. Know low pressure pump is ok so problem must be high pressure pump. Just trying to find out how to bleed this pump but can’t find bleed point or how to prime at the moment. Have already replaced high pressure solenoid. Cheers again

 

[Communicator]

Thanks for your reply. Checked all the earth straps and harnesses. Hubby is hydraulics engineer so aware of high pressure dangers. Have now removed the common rail to check for blockages and have attached a hose connected to common rail inlet to test high pressure valve. Cracking engine no fuel coming through. Know low pressure pump is ok so problem must be high pressure pump. Just trying to find out how to bleed this pump but can’t find bleed point or how to prime at the moment. Have already replaced high pressure solenoid. Cheers again

In case it maybe of some help, I have a memory of following a thread where a blocked filter was found in the hp pump inlet. Unfortunately I caanot remember more, including as to which engine. It may have been in the region of two years ago.

 

[varesecrazy]

A bleed from the rail is pretty likely.. But see what the HP Pump is putting out

If the HP pump isn't keeping up the ECU cannot fire the injectors.. Therefore it won't run

 

[jackwhoo]

High pressure pump does not need bleeding.

 

[wizbeeward]

A bleed from the rail is pretty likely.. But see what the HP Pump is putting out

If the HP pump isn't keeping up the ECU cannot fire the injectors.. Therefore it won't run

Yeah. Hubby has removed the fuel pump now and is stripping it . Prob gonna have to replace but nothing to lose taking apart to take a look

 

[wizbeeward]

High pressure pump does not need bleeding.

Thanks

 

[theoneandonly]

@Communicator there is a u tube video or 2 on how to change this filter.

Live data on the pressure is more usefull than error codes.
With multiple codes occuring it can be more likey an electrical error eg the famous earth connection or a short typicaly on sensor 5V ,0V lines, this can be seen on live data or with a DMM or scope.

 

[theoneandonly]

2018 Ducato nox sensor code p2200-15 | FIAT Ducato

This is a little investigation i was part of for a non member (i only did the analysis) The actual leg work, data collection and spotting the chaffed wire done by @Fredastaire. It is included here to complement other P2200 threads, particularly because it refers to a sensor that does not exist...

www.fiatforum.com

This is post that relates to problem that the error code points to a sensor that doesnt exist in this model. It also is an intermitant fault related to a sensor short.

 

[Charlie 58]

Out of interest, did you record the faults logged and any freeze frame data thet would trigger the log,
It can take a bit of cranking to record any data,
Regarding bleeding, the common rail accumulates pressure to supply all injectors,
Cracking a pipe to bleed doesnt work, it just lets any pressure out of the accumulator it would be a spit at best,
Could you share the logged faults, it may help,
It is possible to measure leaking injectors with measuring bottles kit, , they leak internally and cause pressure loss,
Are they switching,
can you see an engine rpm speed on cranking or the rpm counter needle lift off the stop,
Can you hear the in tank fuel pump priming at the filter ,you may be able to activate it with launch,

 

[varesecrazy]

@wizbeeward?

 

[wizbeeward]

Out of interest, did you record the faults logged and any freeze frame data thet would trigger the log,
It can take a bit of cranking to record any data,
Regarding bleeding, the common rail accumulates pressure to supply all injectors,
Cracking a pipe to bleed doesnt work, it just lets any pressure out of the accumulator it would be a spit at best,
Could you share the logged faults, it may help,
It is possible to measure leaking injectors with measuring bottles kit, , they leak internally and cause pressure loss,
Are they switching,
can you see an engine rpm speed on cranking or the rpm counter needle lift off the stop,
Can you hear the in tank fuel pump priming at the filter ,you may be able to activate it with launch,

Pump in fuel tank working fine. Pipe from pump to jar filled

Out of interest, did you record the faults logged and any freeze frame data thet would trigger the log,
It can take a bit of cranking to record any data,
Regarding bleeding, the common rail accumulates pressure to supply all injectors,
Cracking a pipe to bleed doesnt work, it just lets any pressure out of the accumulator it would be a spit at best,
Could you share the logged faults, it may help,
It is possible to measure leaking injectors with measuring bottles kit, , they leak internally and cause pressure loss,
Are they switching,
can you see an engine rpm speed on cranking or the rpm counter needle lift off the stop,
Can you hear the in tank fuel pump priming at the filter ,you may be able to activate it with launch,

Out of interest, did you record the faults logged and any freeze frame data thet would trigger the log,
It can take a bit of cranking to record any data,
Regarding bleeding, the common rail accumulates pressure to supply all injectors,
Cracking a pipe to bleed doesnt work, it just lets any pressure out of the accumulator it would be a spit at best,
Could you share the logged faults, it may help,
It is possible to measure leaking injectors with measuring bottles kit, , they leak internally and cause pressure loss,
Are they switching,
can you see an engine rpm speed on cranking or the rpm counter needle lift off the stop,
Can you hear the in tank fuel pump priming at the filter ,you may be able to activate it with launch,

Needle lifts off when cranking and when it tries to start for a few seconds had pipe from fuel tank pump to jar this filled up very quickly I’ve no measuring kit to test injectors original fault were p0335 rpm p0638 throttle valve control p0520 oil pressure switch p0683 preheat p0235 boost pressure p0685 main relay so I’ve replaced throttle body (was stuck open and electric moto corroded replaced crank sensor and cam sensor also egr solenoide (water ingress) because of lack of fuel to common rail replaced high pressure pump I’ve checked fuel filter all ok thanks again

 

[Charlie 58]

Hi wizbee,
thanks for the info, i have a Ducato 3 litre 2007 hymer , on bosch edc16,
if you are seeing an engine speed the engine ecu is running, the original crank sensor fault would stop the engine,
regarding the throttle valve,
if it was jammed open it may have blown a 12v supply fuse that may supply other components,
as the new one will rest in the closed position, it may cause the fail to start if its not opening on command,
checking the engine bay fuses or voltage at the valve would be worth a look,
If the egr was stuck open you would get smoke from the exhaust on cranking and fuel pressure around 250 bar plus
Ref fuel pressure in data stream is it reading anything now,
If not take the oil cap off and have a look in the oil filler and check you can see the cam chain turning when cranking,
The pump wont deliver if its not being driven, , which may relate to p0520 oil pressure, if it doesnt,
The original data had no relevance to fuel , it would have registered if there was a fault that stopped the engine,
So you may benefit from confirming the above,
Let us know how you get on,

 

[Brescia]

Agree with Charlie, it seems like the hp pump may not be spinning, or not building enough pressure due to contamination or another failure mode.

 

[Charlie 58]

The timing chains drive the oil/vacuum pump, injector pump and power steering and a single row chain to drive the camshafts,
If the chain is turning, the pump should produce pressure,
the next no cost step would be remove the hose at the pressure relief valve on the accumulator and check its not discharging,
It opens above 1600- 1800 bar from memory, so with no pressure on live data an easy safe check,
There shouldn't be any significant bleed back in the return line that cant be captured in a cup,
The next steps are more involved and one test requires safety precautions due to high pressure fuel, so may be best done by a professional,
Lets se what wisbee comes back with,

 

[Elmerthud]

The timing chains drive the oil/vacuum pump, injector pump and power steering and a single row chain to drive the camshafts,
If the chain is turning, the pump should produce pressure,
the next no cost step would be remove the hose at the pressure relief valve on the accumulator and check its not discharging,
It opens above 1600- 1800 bar from memory, so with no pressure on live data an easy safe check,
There shouldn't be any significant bleed back in the return line that cant be captured in a cup,
The next steps are more involved and one test requires safety precautions due to high pressure fuel, so may be best done by a professional,
Lets se what wisbee comes back with,

Did the op get it running ??

 

[varesecrazy]

Did the op get it running ??

@wizbeeward ?

 

[theGman]

We have a Fiat Ducato 3lt Multijet 160 2007 Motorhome. On a recent trip back home engine stopped, ignition light stayed on while travelling on Motorway. Put clutch in while coasting and re-started engine. Made it as further 1 mile to get off at our junction. On slip road off motorway same thing happened again. Managed to get safe location on the roundabout over the motorway. Rang recovery and got towed home. At this point i was able to drive from main road where tow truck dropped me onto driveway. Following day would turn over but not start. Had a Diagnostics guy visit who scanned for codes. It came with multiple codes, but kept cutting him off of the ECU indicating perhaps a Electrical fault. Fault codes were present and we have replaced the following items so far. Crank Sensor, Cam Sensor, Throttle Body and cable adapter. Original Throttle body was seized. Replaced fuel pressure regulator. Checked EGR Valve. Ordered EGR Solenoid to fit next week. Cleaned Manifold sensor. Checked all visible wiring in loom. All ok. Checked fuses and fuse box all good. Checked low pressure fuel pump in tank and all ok. Purchased Launch 2024 Diagnostic machine and this originally confirmed all fault codes the same as guy who ran his diagnostics. We now scan the engine and NO CODES are showing, but still will not work. Cranks but will not start. When running live data stream no pressure is being recorded at the 4 cylinder injectors. Bled the Common rail pipe connector to the injectors but don't seem to have consistent high pressure. Bleed 1 pipe which has high pressure fuel come out, but when proceeding to try to bleed the other 3 while engine is cranking no high pressure is present. Seems to be a high pressure fuel problem....Any thoughts appreciated.

@wizbeeward Did you ever get problem sorted as I have same issue now?