Technical Stop Start Story

[Mick F]

Just thought I'd get back to this to add a bit of info.

Our 500TA is working perfectly with S/S with her new battery, and I thank everybody for telling me to renew it. The car is only three and a half years old and because S/S cars are fussy about their battery, I had to fit a new one.

What about the old one?
The battery was tested professionally a couple of times and was declared Good. Despite my complaints that S/S wouldn't work and I suspected the battery, it all fell on deaf ears. However, I took the advice of this forum and replaced it.

The old S/S battery remained in the shed, and I charged it from time to time. We have a 14 year old Clio that we've had since brand new and her battery was on its last legs. This one is her second - she's done 95,000 miles.

A couple of weeks ago, I took the Clio's battery out and fitted the old S/S battery and found that it works very well indeed! The Clio doesn't go on many long trips and mainly only goes to the village and back - 2miles max. Despite the repeated short journeys, the old S/S battery works perfectly well and the car starts like a good-un and no wonder the professionals said it was a good battery ................. because it is.

................. just not good enough for a Fiat 500 S/S.

Thanks,
Mick.

 

[alexGS]

I'm quite glad my 500 doesn't have S&S - and neither does my Giulietta. I notice both cars have their original Magneti Marelli batteries. In the 500, that means the battery is now seven years old - I suppose I'll be checking its condition fairly closely from now on. Based on my experience of modern batteries, its failure will probably be sudden and total (after a long trip/constant charging) rather than a gradual weakening.

-Alex

 

[Mick F]

Both the batteries we've had in the Clio, tended to reduce in performance. The batteries wouldn't stay charged, and the cold winter starting was iffy to say the least.

I've kept all the service records of our Clio and the second battery was fitted in Dec 2008 and it cost £45. Considering the new S/S battery for the 500TA cost £94, and the Clio needed a new battery, I reckon I got a bargain.

Old S/S battery is in the Clio, so I've "saved" £45 in not having to buy a third new battery for it.

Regards,
Mick.

 

[Mick F]

Well ..........................
Here we are two years after buy a new S/S battery for our TA, and it's started to play up. Timing it yesterday, I only got 90secs before auto-start. This is despite the car being used quite a bit, and on a few longer runs too.

I'll connect up the charger today and leave it connected for most of the day, then try again tomorrow.

If the battery is on the way down and is starting to not be good enough for S/S, it's a poor show. £100 for a battery that is in need of replacement after only two years is a stupid situation, especially as the battery is perfect in every way.

If I replaced it, what would I do with the "old" one?
Maybe in a dozen years time, I'll have six perfectly serviceable batteries.

Thanks guys,
Mick.

 

[typecastboy]

I give my old batteries to someone who has a stable with an electric fence.

 

[jrkitching]

Batteries start to wear from the day they are made. The rate of wear depends on time, usage, temperature, the state of charge and the battery technology. S/S cars subject the battery to repeated small discharge/charge cycles, and this increases the rate of wear*. In the case of the 500, the S/S system requires a relatively unworn battery to function correctly, so it's a double whammy - S/S wears the battery faster, and it'll be unable to sustain S/S functionality long before it's unable to start the car.

If you want to enjoy the full benefits of S/S functionality, then you'll likely have to replace the battery every 2-3yrs, at a cost of £100 or so.

This is a system that's been promoted as being 'green' and 'economical'. The reality is that lead-acid batteries are hugely polluting things to manufacture, and there's no way S/S will save most folks anywhere near enough in fuel to pay for the additional battery replacement cost. IMO the system as currently fitted needs further development, and possibly a different battery technology.

The real benefits as I see it are in reducing noise and emissions in cities, but S/S will cost you money, not save it.

*Many years ago I had a van fitted with an active alarm, which drew a not insignificant constant current. After a couple of years, the battery was well and truly shot, so I replaced it with a premium brand - which itself lasted only 2 1/2 yrs. I then disconnected the alarm, and the second replacement battery lasted well over ten years.

 

[Mercky]

Well ..........................
Here we are two years after buy a new S/S battery for our TA, and it's started to play up. Timing it yesterday, I only got 90secs before auto-start. This is despite the car being used quite a bit, and on a few longer runs too.

I'll connect up the charger today and leave it connected for most of the day, then try again tomorrow.

If the battery is on the way down and is starting to not be good enough for S/S, it's a poor show. £100 for a battery that is in need of replacement after only two years is a stupid situation, especially as the battery is perfect in every way.

If I replaced it, what would I do with the "old" one?
Maybe in a dozen years time, I'll have six perfectly serviceable batteries.

Thanks guys,
Mick.

there may be other factors at play here Mick, it wont always last the full 3 mins and will depend on external temp and heater control settings for example, ie, if its 5 degrees outside and you have heater or acc set to 25 then its going to probably restart early to maintain the internal temp

 

[jrkitching]

there may be other factors at play here Mick, it wont always last the full 3 mins and will depend on external temp and heater control settings for example, ie, if its 5 degrees outside and you have heater or acc set to 25 then its going to probably restart early to maintain the internal temp

Is the system that intelligent? Can climate control trigger a S/S restart based on cabin temperature?

I'd agree that the S/S holding time will reduce in certain circumstances, but I've never seen any technical documentation as to exactly what those circumstances are, or how precisely the restart is triggered.

I'd say Mick's experiencing the first signs of battery wear affecting S/S performance. Low temperatures redue battery performance, and it's been cold the last few nights. In Mick's position, I'd be hoping it'll hold together sufficiently to get through the winter and planning to replace it next autumn.

 

[Mercky]

Is the system that intelligent? Can climate control trigger a S/S restart based on cabin temperature?

I'd agree that the S/S holding time will reduce in certain circumstances, but I've never seen any technical documentation as to exactly what those circumstances are, or how precisely the restart is triggered.

I'd say Mick's experiencing the first signs of battery wear affecting S/S performance.

sure does in my experience

 

[John202020]

If a stop start battery cannot "perform as intended/designed" within its guarantee period, could it be classed as 'failed' even if technically it will crank over the car and therefore qualify for free replacement?
Of those who have this function how many owners turn it off as soon as you start the car?

 

[Mick F]

Hi guys.
A bit of info ..........

When I noticed it the other day, I just put it down to being cold and the ACC set to 24degC. I shrugged it off and sort of forgot about the issue.

Yesterday, I was out driving and I experimented. I turned the ACC to OFF, turned the DLR lights off, and made sure nothing was switched on other than the engine running.

S/S stopped for 90secs.

Now, I must say that although the car has been driven almost daily recently, it's not been far - 10 to 20miles max. The battery is now on charge and has been since 8am - it's now nearly 11am - and it's still charging.

Fingers crossed, this is just a problem with the cold weather plus not enough run time. I'll leave it charging until complete, then let it stew for the rest of the day, then see how it gets on tomorrow as I'm not planning on driving today. Don't know if I can keep the charger running all day and all night, I'll read what the Ctek instructions say.

Whilst we're on the subject of possible replacement, I've found a battery place who guarantee their batteries four years.
http://www.thebatteryguys.co.uk/82-...ar=500 Petrol 0.9, 1.2, 1.4 - 2008 to Present

If you read their warranty page
http://www.thebatteryguys.co.uk/content/9-warranty-information

Should you have reason to contact us regarding your battery, in the first instance please call on 0845 302 3044 or email on [email protected]
If our conversations are unable to resolve the issue then return the battery to us at The Battery Guys, C/O WB Powersource Limited, Brandon Way, West Bromwich, West Midlands, B70 8JB. We will charge and test your battery on receipt.
If the battery proves to be faulty we will replace it free of charge or refund your purchase price in full, your choice. If the battery proves to be just discharged (flat), we will return it to you after re-charging it fully.

THE GUARANTEE DOES NOT COVER
Failure resulting from wear & tear ............

Seems like they don't guarantee the Stop/Start issue here?
If they do, the four year warranty is a Good Thing ............ because SS batteries don't ever last that long!
Could therefore be a good investment to buy one battery for the life of the vehicle!

We've already discussed on this long-running thread, the battery places can't test a SS battery for SS problems. All they can do is check the capacity and the cranking amps. How they can guarantee a SS battery, I don't know. I wonder if the warranty isn't worth the paper it's written on.

Any thoughts on this?

Regards to all,
Mick.

 

[Mercky]

I got mine replaced under warranty after 2 years, admittedly it was more of a goodwill gesture rather then an official warranty claim, the replacement was a specific SS Mopar battery and so far so good but the winter months will put it to the test

 

[Mick F]

Is the system that intelligent? Can climate control trigger a S/S restart based on cabin temperature?

I'd agree that the S/S holding time will reduce in certain circumstances, but I've never seen any technical documentation as to exactly what those circumstances are, or how precisely the restart is triggered.

This is from the handbook.

Basically, cabin temp takes priority over SS ......... or that's the way I read it.

 

[Super Uwe]

Could well be that the battery is getting close to the various threshold limits that will determine whether S/S activates or not. The fact that it is only stopping for 90 seconds or so is still kind of encouraging IMO; remember of course that the system will never want to knowingly leave you stranded with a flat battery

I see from your last post that it is used daily but hasn't necessarily been travelling all that far. If it is regularly travelling less than 30 minutes in one go, then I can well imagine the S/S system will come under strain before too long.

The fact you are posting just as the first spell of colder weather has arrived is probably no coincidence either.

But charging your battery will hopefully give it enough of a boost to work as normal. It still sounds as though it's operating correctly, just not as well as you would like.

 

[John202020]

I once heard it said (a long time ago) it takes 20 minutes of running to replace what a 5 second start takes out, though a modern car starts far faster 'normally '

 

[Mick F]

Don't forget that a SS car has an uprated alternator to take into account the regular starting.

The battery has reached full charge now. Didn't see what time it was when it was reached, but it was in the last couple of hours. Let's say for argument, it was an hour ago. This makes it that the battery made 100% in five hours. The poor thing must be suffering in the cold weather and also from neglect.

I'm going to charge it regularly from now on. It didn't suffer last winter, so I wasn't prepared for it this cold snap, but this is it's second ........... (and final?) ....... winter.

Checking the Ctek instructions, I can leave it connected and cycling for ten days, so I'll leave it connected until tomorrow morning when I go off in the car. I have to reconnect the earth lead of course, then reset the date and time.

Gonna be cold again tonight, and the sun has already set here. Yes, I know it's only 1415 GMT, but as we live in a steep valley on the western slopes plus on a southern wing facing north, the sun has gone behind the hill.

What we need, is a heated garage. :chin:

Regards,
Mick.

 

[UFI]

This is a system that's been promoted as being 'green' and 'economical'. The reality is that lead-acid batteries are hugely polluting things to manufacture, and there's no way S/S will save most folks anywhere near enough in fuel to pay for the additional battery replacement cost. IMO the system as currently fitted needs further development, and possibly a different battery technology.

The problem with modern cars is the 12v battery in general, cars should have gone to 24v in the 80's and be running 48v today.

Modern cars have a massive stand by current draw, that just like that aftermarket alarm, will kill a battery in 3-4 years tops. My ten year old Jeep is managing on it's OE battery by comparison.

Stop/ Start will shorten battery life, but it's proportional to how much S/S is used. So if you do mostly highway driving, you won't save much from S/S but then your battery won't be depleted much either.

S/S has the potential to save city users quite a lot:

https://www.fiatforum.com/500/342685-some-interesting-data-collected.html

I went as far as preparing my Renault for S/S duty, with a super capacitor bank and solar panel. The solar panel ran the dash cams 24/7 (obviously they ran off the vehicle battery over night) - and as I found out when a connection from the charge controller came loose- they took enough power to drain the battery fully if left on for a weekend.

Even with that nightmarish vampire load, the plain (non AGM etc) 12v battery was sold off with the car last week apparently fine after 2.5 years of brutal S/S duty (my engine was off about 1/2 the time), saving at least 250l of fuel.

I kind of suspect Fiat use low quality batteries, it will be interesting to see how long the second 'quality' batteries fitted will last. Ideally, all S/S systems would use a supercap bank like Mazda does.

When I needed a replacement battery under warranty, the mobile battery vans didn't have S/S batteries (of course), so I've been running an over sized plain battery in UFI for a year or so. S/S seems to have stopped recently, so I'm likely going to look into a DIY set up when I get the chance.

And yes, A/C will absolutely trigger an S/S restart.

 

[UFI]

I once heard it said (a long time ago) it takes 20 minutes of running to replace what a 5 second start takes out, though a modern car starts far faster 'normally '

Starter motor: 5 seconds at 80A= 1.3Wh

Alternator: 2.5 seconds at 160A= 1.3Wh

1.8Wh is about the capacity of a 9v smoke alarm battery

So it takes about 2.5 seconds to put back what a 5 second start takes out, and if it takes 5 seconds to start your engine, you've got another problem. S/S restarts on a warm engine should be well under 1 second.

 

[UFI]

The battery has reached full charge now. Didn't see what time it was when it was reached, but it was in the last couple of hours. Let's say for argument, it was an hour ago. This makes it that the battery made 100% in five hours. The poor thing must be suffering in the cold weather and also from neglect.

I'm going to charge it regularly from now on. It didn't suffer last winter, so I wasn't prepared for it this cold snap, but this is it's second ........... (and final?) ....... winter.

I've always said S/S batteries (and all batteries frankly) need regular charging. Daily would be ideal.

 

[Mick F]

The problem with modern cars is the 12v battery in general, cars should have gone to 24v in the 80's and be running 48v today

I've always said that.
By having higher voltages, all the conductors can be thinner and lighter. 12v DC in this day and age is a bit daft.

I have also always said that I can't understand why cars don't have two sets of circuitry:
One high power DC for the starter motor, and the other AC for the general electrics at high voltage.

Our battery remains fully charged and still connected. I'll be off out in a few hours time, and I'll give it a good run to get it nice and warm, then do a few experiments.

Regards,
Mick.