Technical Steering tracking (again)

[DaveMcT]

I adjusted the tracking in the usual way.

I am now wondering if I could have got a better result by adjusting the subframe.

Your tracking is straight ahead and your tyres are wearing. Bill said there was an opinion the Panda chassis is so bent that adjusting may drive you mad.

The rear beam has two pyramid shaped brackets held to the body shell with three bolts each side. The bolt holes have quite a wide clearance but there are no alignment pins so it can be out of line. Fortunately, a half-decent laser system should show it up by seeing toe-out at one side and toe-in at the other.

The front is a whole bigger problem because we don't have a datum to check against and any misalignment taken from the wheels will be messed up by subframe alignments.

The body shell centre line should make an ideal datum but there is no indication on the car exactly where that is.

I suspect the best we can do is make sure the rears are running parallel and take everything else from there.

My approach will be small adjustments to the tack rods until - hopefully - the tyre treads have the same warmth right across.

 

[Ralf S.]

What state/how old are your front wishbone arms? If you have worn bushes, the camber will be out and that will knacker the inner edge of even perfectly tracked tyres.

If your local tyre place can give you a 4-wheel alignment check, then the equipment ususally produces a printout of the camber too. It might be worth getting it measured just to see, especially if there's a freebie offer (e.g. Merit sometimes offer one).

Ralf S.

 

[DaveMcT]

Mine has just had new bottom arms the stiffer more costly version. The old tyres were worn on the inside edge and TBH I put it down to the bottom arms, though LHS arm was actually ok.

Mrs Dave's has over 2 degs of negative camber on the RHS front. The left is vertical. That suggests the bottom arm is a problem, but the ball joint is fine and the rear rubber bush looks healthy. The suspension strut also looks fine though it's impossible to tell for sure without removing it.

PS. Mrs car had worn both fronts on the inside (as mine did) though driver's side was a bit worse which fits with the camber issue.

 

[irc]

Does Mrs. Dave's Panda have matching lower arms?
Different brands seem to have dimensional differences - only small, but probably enough to upset the Panda's non-adjustable geometry?

 

[jrkitching]

Does Mrs. Dave's Panda have matching lower arms?
Different brands seem to have dimensional differences - only small, but probably enough to upset the Panda's non-adjustable geometry?

I'd say that replacing both arms at the same time (which is good practice anyway) is particularly important with the Panda.

Making sure the top mount rubbers (the ones inside the wing, not the bump stops) are fitted in the correct orientation is also a good idea.

If you're paranoid about tyre wear and geometry, never buy a Triumph Herald.

 

[irc]

I'd say that replacing both arms at the same time (which is good practice anyway) is particularly important with the Panda.

I always do now, having struggled with a few Panda tracking problems.
I also avoid the no-name/unknown brand cheapies, as the price difference between them and a recognisable brand is fairly small. Certainly less than multiple attempts at getting tracking right and early replacement of tyres.
(I also compare them back-to-back before fitting, but maybe that's just a bit OCD)

I have a pair of Dunlop tyres in my shed with 6mm tread on the outside and 1.6mm on the inside from before I learned this lesson! (If they were 13" I would have used them as full size spares, but they are 14", and I'm short of alloys)
That Panda has done 20k miles on the next pair of fronts with no sign of uneven wear.

 

[DaveMcT]

The bottom arms "look" the same but the only way to know for sure would be to replace both. A least they are cheap on the ordinary Panda.

 

[DaveMcT]

If you're paranoid about tyre wear and geometry, never buy a Triumph Herald.

Or a VW Beetle or even an unmodified Austin/Rover Mini.

 

[DaveMcT]

Shop 4 Parts have Original Birth ordinary spec bottom arms at £31.50 (£37.80 incl. VAT) each so delivery will be free. That's competitive with stuff on ebay.

Part numbers -

Right - 50703129 / KC50Left - 50703128 / KC51
​

S4P now have the Magneti Marelli 100HP arms in stock at about double the price but another thread shows its possible to replace the rear bush for the 100HP at much less cost.

 

[HP]

...S4P now have the Magneti Marelli 100HP arms in stock at about double the price but another thread shows its possible to replace the rear bush for the 100HP at much less cost.

If you have a lathe...

All fitted, however, it wasn't quite as straight forward as 1 in 1 out.
I had to turn the new bushes down on a lathe as they were too big to push in. Only needed between 0.5-1mm removing. I also shortened them slightly, but this wasn't 100% necessary.

Will try and fit them at the weekend. In reality the bushes don't seem much stiffer than the normal type!?

 

[dac69er]

Fitted the new arms last night. I remember what an utter arse ache of a job it is to do on your own, you need multiple sets of hands!!!

Any way, after much swearing it was all back together. The old bushes were still together but pretty torn up and didn't have a lot of life in them. They did well for about 4 years and 40-50k miles use. They were the cheapo type bushes btw.

The tracking was a mile out so went and got it done today. Was 16 degrees toe out both sides, so at least it was equal

Anyway, it drives generally about the same. The front does feel a bit more direct/stiffer and is more on point in the corners.

I would personally say that handling wise, the "stiffer" bushes would be so marginally different to the cheap ones that it isn't worth the extra for the magneti marelli ones.
Time will tell whether these style of bushes outlast the cheap ones to justify the cost. I can't see these lasting 8 years myself.

If anyone is after the part number or any more details, let me know.

 

[DaveMcT]

I read that disconnecting the anti roll bar drop links will help but on mine the problem was the ARB itself. I dealt with it by jacking up the hub (with drop link connected). This moves the ARB out of the way and allows the old arm to come out and the new one in.

My ARB had battered paint (exactly where previous bottom arm fitting jobs bashed it about) so I'm sure it wasn't just me.


I fitted the rear bolt (loose) then used rubber grease on the front bush to get it into the subframe. Without that, I was struggling for ages.

The ball joint was fitted by clamping a steel tube (timber batten would do) to the bottom arm. I could then push it down far enough to connect the ball joint.

 

[dac69er]

My biggest issue was the driveshaft popping out of the cup at the gearbox end. The drivers side (longest shaft) being the worst.
With the droplink in it helped with lifting the arb and the damper, but with it disconnected it made everything drop.

On a ramp or with another pair of hands it would have been an ok job.

 

[DaveMcT]

My biggest issue was the driveshaft popping out of the cup at the gearbox end. The drivers side (longest shaft) being the worst.
With the droplink in it helped with lifting the arb and the damper, but with it disconnected it made everything drop.

On a ramp or with another pair of hands it would have been an ok job.

I was concerned about the drive shaft so did not release the drop links. The problem was the (of course) the ARB sitting right in the way. Disconnecting the ball joint and jacking under the hub gave enough space to get the arms in/out quite easily. Lining up the rubber bush bolts was a fight but that was always going to be an issue.
I was then stuck with the hub sitting at least 3" too low to connect the ball joint. I thought about using spring compressors, but the leverage bar clamped to the arm did the job.

 

[dac69er]

I found putting the rear bush in first with the balljoint pointing to the rear of the car helped. You could easily get the bolt In. I then swung it round to get the front bush in (need lube like you said).
I managed the passenger side pretty well as the driveshaft wasnt such a pain.

At least I shouldn't have to touch it for a few years now!

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

If I'm not feeling lazy I set the tracking myself using Dunlop alignment gauges. They do a great job and have been far happier with the results from that that some new fangled laser thing that the 14year old "technician" has no idea how to use.

The Dunlop aligning gauge was what I learned on all those years ago! Before every use you sat them face to face with the ends of the wheel probes all touching and zeroed the calibration. You knew then that calibration was spot on.

My experience of setting tracking is that it's very dependent on the diligence, knowledge and experience of the person doing it - not a job for the apprentice to do unsupervised. It can be a horrid job too, especially if the vehicle you are working on has just come in on a wet day or has recently been driven on a muddy road! Then, also, there are often severely corroded lock nuts to deal with and if you're having a bad day (for any number of fallibly human reasons) the temptation to cut corners can be overwhelming. That's why I say always get the completed readout when you pay your bill. It's worth asking when the equipment was last calibrated too, before you start of course!

 

[DaveMcT]

Mine is definitely pulling left though the tracking readout says all is well. I cant budge the lock-nuts so tomorrow (hopefully) I'll change the inner and outer track rods.

 

[dac69er]

Mine is definitely pulling left though the tracking readout says all is well. I cant budge the lock-nuts so tomorrow (hopefully) I'll change the inner and outer track rods.

my girlfriends car needed heat to get the locknuts undone!

when the tracking was done initially the car drove reasonably straigth, but the steering wheel wasnt straight.

he rechecked the alignment with a more manual mirror style gauge similar to the dunlop ones and confirmed it was aligned correctly.
he then aligned just the front wheels as initially he aligned the fronts with the rears using the laser alignment kit. he mentioned that some cars arent very straight, especially as they get older due to bushes and things potentially getting a bit worn or even damaged if the car has had a knock.

he seemed to know what he was talking about and was more than happy to recheck everything multiple times even though the place was hugely busy at the time.

only time will tell i guess..........

 

[DaveMcT]

The Panda back axle is not doweled or keyed in any way to the chassis so if one wheel shows a tiny toe-out and the other toe-in that suggest the axle needs a push in the right direction. There just three bolts each side so adjustments of sorts can be made.

 

[portland_bill]

The Panda back axle is not doweled or keyed in any way to the chassis so if one wheel shows a tiny toe-out and the other toe-in that suggest the axle needs a push in the right direction. There just three bolts each side so adjustments of sorts can be made.

My four-wheel alignment readings always suggested that the rear axle was slightly misaligned. When fitting the new one, I tweaked it within its mounting bolts to 'correct' the misalignment.
Still pulls slightly left.
Probably the jig it was made on!