Technical Starter not engaging

[Fuse]

I had a quick search but couldn't find a similar problem.

The other half's 500L starter motor spins on the key but every now and then doesn't engage. Stop/start is off and the spin isn't lazy. It had a new battery recently as the old one died in the cold snap earlier in the year.

I'm used to the old bendix throw in starters and just want to know if this is the same on the 500L and how easy is it to remove the starter motor.

Any guidance/hints appreciated

John

(Currently a Tipo owner and previously 3 Stilos so fully appreciate Fiat foibles!!)

 

[bugsymike]

I had a quick search but couldn't find a similar problem.

The other half's 500L starter motor spins on the key but every now and then doesn't engage. Stop/start is off and the spin isn't lazy. It had a new battery recently as the old one died in the cold snap earlier in the year.

I'm used to the old bendix throw in starters and just want to know if this is the same on the 500L and how easy is it to remove the starter motor.

Any guidance/hints appreciated

John

(Currently a Tipo owner and previously 3 Stilos so fully appreciate Fiat foibles!!)

Not specific 500l advice, just general.
When starter "spins on key" I assume you mean the starter it's self is turning but not engaging with flywheel?
Modern starters, unlike the Bendix types we used to work on in the past are known as "pre engaged " starters, the solenoid is mounted on the starter and when activated pulls the gear/pinion into mesh in the flywheel and it's final act is to make the motor contact allowing the starter it's self to spin.
Whereas in the old days the action of the starter turning spun the gear into mesh on the flywheel, it was effective but did result in excessive wear on the pinion but also on two areas on the flywheel which is where engines tend to stop. Hence if one grinded but didn't mesh sometimes you could turn the engine by the fan belt etc. or rocking in gear and the starter would work on an unworn part of the flywheel teeth.
Years ago I have fitted loads of ring gears to flywheels before pre engaged starters took over.
In your case if starter is turning, then taking it out and freeing off /oiling slightly may help assuming the teeth are not damaged.
Another cause if no obvious damage but accompanied by an awful screeching it can be the "sprag clutch" part of the starter pinion shot, if so it is usually easier to fit a new starter although I have replaced the part in the past where available.

 

[Fuse]

Starter was behaving itself but has recently repeated its previous spin/not engaging so I have got a new starter. Having taken the undertray off (only sheared off one bolt!!) and located the starter I've got 2 bolts out but I can't figure out how to get the third one out. Looking at the various videos off starter changes they show a grommet being removed giving access to a bolt mine is a multi air and I can't see this.

Am I missing something or do I just need to give it a harder thump to release it?

Any guidance or direction to further info greatly appreciated.

John.

 

[bugsymike]

Starter was behaving itself but has recently repeated its previous spin/not engaging so I have got a new starter. Having taken the undertray off (only sheared off one bolt!!) and located the starter I've got 2 bolts out but I can't figure out how to get the third one out. Looking at the various videos off starter changes they show a grommet being removed giving access to a bolt mine is a multi air and I can't see this.

Am I missing something or do I just need to give it a harder thump to release it?

Any guidance or direction to further info greatly appreciated.

John.

Does this sound like yours?

 

[varesecrazy]

Not swapped a starter in years..
But seem to recall 2 bolts facing one direction and another facing the other

Got an old starter.. Or pics to hand?

 

[bugsymike]

In the video it mentions after removing battery and ECU etc. there is a rubber grommet hiding the last bolt as OP mentions , so may help. personally I have never changed one on that model.

 

[Fuse]

After some grub and a cup of tea I went back out and had another rummage. I took the battery out to get a better view (on the 500X 1.4 MultiAir the battery is 90 degrees to those shown in the videos and no battery tray to remove) and lo and behold there is the 3rd bolt head tucked up the end easily accessible with an extension and a wobble socket. Bolt undone and starter is out. The only problem is that the old starter solenoid activation is different to the replacement. The solenoids have different internal slug diameters so I can't do a simple swap. Thankfully I have waterproof connectors in the shed and it won't be a problem.

Early start tomorrow otherwise the other half won't be able to go shopping!!

John.

 

[Fuse]

Well that's that done - up and running and the other half happy.

Things learnt:

The original starter motor uses the main battery feed fixing as a way of terminating the solenoid activating wire as part of a plastic moulding over the stud. The replacement starter - not oem but from LCP - was configured differently. As mentioned previously I adapted the wiring with an additional plug so it works. Done properly - no scotchblocks, terminal strips or wound together wires and electrical tape used.

The job is doable on the drive with one side up on an axle stand. It's a bit awkward but once the bolts are out the motor comes out easy enough. The tricky bit is attaching the main power feed as you have to do it by feel.

The battery tray does not have to be removed just the battery. The ECU is mounted under the scuttle unlike other 500s. There are no sides to the battery box as the battery has a padded jacket around it which comes out with the battery.

Fiat undertrays are a pain in the proverbial!! As a previous 4 times Stilo nad current Tipo owner I have form!!

The third fixing bolt is easy enough to get to with a UJ socket attachment or a wobble socket. Hopefully the picture gives an indication of its location.

 

[varesecrazy]

Well done,

is there any form of I/D on the replacement unit..?

All good info, as you appear to be the 1st on here to do the job

 

[FiatWisco]

Have same issue on a Fiat 2015 500 Pop (USA) 5 speed manual /1.4 multiair, with only 47,000 miles on it. Car is in mint condition (has optional engine block heater). Sometimes it catches and starts normally and sometimes it misses but still tries to start. Auto store tested battery and alternator and those are good.
Parts person suggested swapping Relay fuses as sometimes a faulty Relay will cause this. But if a brand new starter solved the issue in this thread, that would seem unlikely. I'll be back with an update after some grub and a coffee. Thank you to all in this thread and original post.

 

[bugsymike]

Have same issue on a Fiat 2015 500 Pop (USA) 5 speed manual /1.4 multiair, with only 47,000 miles on it. Car is in mint condition (has optional engine block heater). Sometimes it catches and starts normally and sometimes it misses but still tries to start. Auto store tested battery and alternator and those are good.
Parts person suggested swapping Relay fuses as sometimes a faulty Relay will cause this. But if a brand new starter solved the issue in this thread, that would seem unlikely. I'll be back with an update after some grub and a coffee. Thank you to all in this thread and original post.

As a way of proving if it is the starter, sometimes giving it a "gentle?" tap with a chunk of wood or similar as key is being turned can make it work if starter is the problem.
Also if wires or connections at starter feel hot that is another clue to check.
Unlikely , but don't use hammer, we used to have customers who beat the sh*t out of it to get the starter to work and then the parts store wouldn't exchange the old unit so it cost them more

 

[AnthonyH]

Be careful putting the electrical wires back on. It doesn't need much torque, overtighten, it'll snap and you'll be buying another starter...

 

[bugsymike]

Note my previous advice was a way of diagnosing the problem and not a "Cure"

 

[FiatWisco]

As a way of proving if it is the starter, sometimes giving it a "gentle?" tap with a chunk of wood or similar as key is being turned can make it work if starter is the problem.
Also if wires or connections at starter feel hot that is another clue to check.
Unlikely , but don't use hammer, we used to have customers who beat the sh*t out of it to get the starter to work and then the parts store wouldn't exchange the old unit so it cost them more

I took it to a Dodge/Chrysler dealer and for $300, they could not replicate the issue. (starter missing on first try, but starts on second try)

I don't think a $7,000 used Fiat 500, even with only 47,000 miles on it is worth replacing a starter.
It's not an Abarth, and the only fun in this car is in 1st and 2nd gear in sport mode.

My solution? Go back to the 2013 Mini Cooper 6 speed manual, while that brand has it's share of headaches, it's far more supple and engineered... the 500 parts feel similar to my 2015 Dodge Caravan. At least the volume/next track controls are in the same spot on the steering wheel.

Thank you for all your help!

If I'm going Fiat, I think it has to be a late 1970s X-19.

 

[bugsymike]

If I'm going Fiat, I think it has to be a late 1970s X-19.

Many like them, but I felt training in Gynecology would have been useful.

 

[FiatWisco]

I have found, waiting a specific amount of time, like after the seat belt warning sound stops, does not make a difference. No amount of experimentation will help the starter engage on that first crank. It doesn't send a signal of confidence to your passenger that your car is up to the task. And to me, I do not take this car on long trips for this reason. I keep a jump starter in the back.

I could of bought a Fiat X-19 in 1980. But instead bought a new 1980 Camaro, oddly with a three speed manual that shifted like a metal bar stuck in a bucket of tar and gravel.

 

[bugsymike]

I have found, waiting a specific amount of time, like after the seat belt warning sound stops, does not make a difference. No amount of experimentation will help the starter engage on that first crank. It doesn't send a signal of confidence to your passenger that your car is up to the task. And to me, I do not take this car on long trips for this reason. I keep a jump starter in the back.

I could of bought a Fiat X-19 in 1980. But instead bought a new 1980 Camaro, oddly with a three speed manual that shifted like a metal bar stuck in a bucket of tar and gravel.

Since around 1969 I have had well over 200 cars and motorcycles, never could afford new so all bought on price and usually sold on for a loss. Some nowadays if I still had would be very valuable, that is if they hadn't rotted out by now.

 

[jpsmcginn]

As a way of proving if it is the starter, sometimes giving it a "gentle?" tap with a chunk of wood or similar as key is being turned can make it work if starter is the problem.
Also if wires or connections at starter feel hot that is another clue to check.
Unlikely , but don't use hammer, we used to have customers who beat the sh*t out of it to get the starter to work and then the parts store wouldn't exchange the old unit so it cost them more

Hi guys,
I swapped out a 140k miles 312 1.2L engine in my old Fiat 500 POP (2011) with a 30k Ford KA 1.2L engine (pretty much identical). However, I too have starter motor issues. The starter is fine (bench tested it with 12V DC and tapped the signal connection with 12V DC). I also fitted it back onto the bell housing and did the same test and the engine slowly turned over. I have the intake manifold off, throttle body and spark leads removed. When I buttoned up the battery connections and the correct starter motor connections (that plastic connector is fiddly!) and tried to turn over the engine again, I get lots of relay clicks in the engine bay fuse box and the starter attempts to engage but it is as though it is getting short, fraction-of-a-second bursts of life but no real turning going on. There is a solid 12.2V DC at the main starter connection and good ground from the starter casing to the battery negative (I recently replaced the earth strap un der the clutch linkage). I've bought a new starter connector as the ring insert wasn't great and plan to swap out the starter relay (T09) but I also notice T20 in the diagram - Start Prevention with Robotized Gearbox. Is it possible the ECU has recognised a different engine and won't play ball?

 

[varesecrazy]

Did you fit the FIAT flywheel, or continued with the Ford one?

 

[jpsmcginn]

Did you fit the FIAT flywheel, or continued with the Ford one?

Took off the Ford one as I thought it was different but it's identical - refitted the Ford one. Used a borescope to check alignment through the bell housing inspection hole and it looks close enough. As I said hitting the starter signal connection spud with 12V directly from the permanent 12V connection from the battery turns the engine over (pulled the fuel pump fuse to stop fuel spurting everywhere). But trying to use the key in the ignition with the signal ring refitted produces the clicking in the fuse box. Same clicking when I reassemble the intake manifold, ignition coils. et al.