Technical Starter issue?

[Giardiniera1969]

Ok, I started my car normally, let it idle for a bit while I put the car cover away then drove about a mile. When I was stopped at the light, the car died. I pulled the starter lever and nothing- no cranking sounds or anything like the starter was not getting power or something. Checked the fuses and they were all good. Lights worked, etc. I tried it again and nothing. Opened the engine lid and checked it, looked fine. I tried again then nothing. Resigned to it not starting but pulled one more time and it started cranking and started. Once started it ran fine so I drove it home and parked it.

So, I have no idea why? Could it be the starter? I am not sure so I ordered a new Condenser, spark plugs, ignition coil, and 123 ignition.

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[fiat500]

It is not going to be related to any of the things that you mention. Either it's physical and related to the cable or mechanism, needing adjusting or replacing, or electrical in the form of dodgy contacts in the starter switch or with the big connections at the battery or starter. It might also be a broken or failing terminal at the battery or starter.
The first thing I would do is, out of gear, arm and sleeves clear of the engine moving parts, key off, pull the activating nlever by hand to see if that makes the engine spin. We can all start helping you from there.
PS. You will find it at the back of the engine, fairly low down.

 

[Giardiniera1969]

Checked the battery and the wire leading to the starter. The push switch at the starter looks pretty worn out so I would not be surprised if the contacts are the issue. The starter cable looks worn as well.

I spoke to Van Der Laan and he has a Giardiniera and advised that he thinks it is the starter itself going out. I took out the starter and will mail it to him tomorrow. He has a 3 day turn around time. He will replace all the parts on it including the switch. In the meantime, I will replace the cable, plugs, and wires. Van Der Laan said not to put the 123 ignition switch in so I am not sure if I can't or he just does not think that I need it.

I took a couple of photos

 

[the hobbler]

I agree with Peter---the problem is starter/starter actuation and NOT ignition circuit. The fact that it ran fine as soon as you could get it to crank and start would prove this. When you refit the starter, I would also check that (a) all battery connections are good and (b) the engine's earth strap is good and secure.

 

[fiat500]

Looking at the photo, you could try moving the split pin of the cable yoke to one of the alternative holes...a fiddly annoying job but it might just be cable stretch needs taking up.

 

[Vitesse]

I third that!!!

My starter used to jam up years ago, I used to pull the lever nothing, the only indication you would get were the dashboard lights would dim so you knew the switch was engaging. I use to hit it with a spanner as a temporary fix and it would work straightaway afterwards. I eventually took it out and gave it a good clean up and replaced the brushes and it has be fine for the last 17 years. I did replace the brushes and clean it up again recently though whilst the car was apart.

 

[Vitesse]

Looking at the photo, you could try moving the split pin of the cable yoke to one of the alternative holes...a fiddly annoying job but it might just be cable stretch needs taking up.

Good call and that cable is dangerously close to the positive terminal. I have experienced a few arcs and sparks when poking around down there when I have forgotten to disconnect the battery and it don't half wake you up!!!!!

 

[the hobbler]

There should be a rubber boot over the terminal to prevent the cable touching the starter cable--mine has one.

 

[Franko500]

The main contact switch on the starter motor that is operated by the lever shouldn't wear too much as it is either on or off.
If you pulled the lever and nothing happened then either the cable is stretched just enough that unless you give it full pull of the lever it does not operate the main switch, so it could just need adjustment or a new cable.
Failing that, before sending it off, I would remove the black band on the end of the starter (opposite end to the drive gear) and remove & inspect the brushes. Your brushes my just be worn to the point that that they have an intermittent contact and need replacing.

 

[Franko500]

I just noticed, is that a 500 starter on a 650 engine?
there appears to be a bolt hole lug on the starter & flywheel housing that do not line up?
Have you got 3 bolts holding it on or 2?


mind you, yours is a Giardiniera right? so maybe I am just talking rubbish.

 

[Giardiniera1969]

I am pretty sure that my engine is a 499cc engine. I have two bolts that the head of the starter attach to and one small bracket in the back. I don't know if the starter is proper though because the guy who put it together took quite a few shortcuts it seems...

 

[Duffys Dad]

It is probably just a stretched cable. If you get a piece of wood and use that to push the lever from behind the car, the starter should engage and run. Do this with the ignition off if you like. I ran a fiat 500 as a student and always had a handy piece of wood in the car so I could use it to actuate the starter as the cables often stretched or failed. This meant you had to switch on the ignition and then go round the back with your piece of wood, much to the amusement of passengers and passers by. However I did try using one once with an old nail in it which shorted on the electrical connection and set fire to the piece of wood, so look out for that one.
I also got quite good at pushing the car and then jumping in and bump starting as the starter motors also often played up too. As a student I never had any money to spend on the car as you can imagine.

 

[Duffys Dad]

Just thought the cable should be retained about half way along where it screws onto the heating pipe. If that has come loose then it may explain the slack in the cable.

 

[Giardiniera1969]

Just got my starter rebuild back from Van Der Laan and it looks fantastic! So glad that I sent it to him! Now to re-install it!

 

[Vitesse]

Looks really good. You have to remove the rest of that sticker on it, it's doing my OCD no favours.

 

[Giardiniera1969]

I did before I reinstalled it

 

[Franko500]

That looks like triggers broom from "only fools and horses".


Is that the same starter motor?
Yes its 50 years old.
Really?
Yes, I look after it. I have replaced 4 sets of brushes, 2 armatures, 2 drive pinions, 1 commutator, 3 bushes, 2 bush housings, 2 switches and 1 casing & 1 lever.
So how can it be the same starter motor?
Well there's the picture, what more proof do you need?

Very nice indeed!


Apologies to those who may not be aware of "Only fools and horses". You have obviously been restoring a fiat 500 too long.

 

[AndrewHarvey]

When I come to fit by 126 starter onto the thinner 500 flywheel are there issues with bendix engagement on the starter ring? A chap I met at AutoItalia had just this problem......forearmed is forewarned....?

 

[the hobbler]

Hi Andrew;
I have a 126 starter and a 500 flywheel on my 500 (with a 126 engine in it) and basically, no problem. Very occasionally the starter just spins, but it did this with the original flywheel. I just let it settle to a stop and pull the lever (early starter with in-cab pull lever) again---and away it goes.

 

[Giardiniera1969]

Got the new starter in and it runs like a champ! I also replaced the starter cable which was as simple as taking the cover off the tunnel removing the old cable and putting the new one on. In the past, when I would start the car the starter would screech. Now, one pull, no screech and starts right up. Took a cruise with the family today and no issues