Technical Sofim 8144 cold start advance

[andreas albu]

Hello everyone . I am working on Fiat Sofim 8144.81 TD engine, which uses a Bosch VE pump. This pump features a cold start advance system that connectes to the engine's pipes cooling water system. Does anyone know how to adjust this system? Thank you very much.

 

[bugsymike]

Hello everyone . I am working on Fiat Sofim 8144.81 TD engine, which uses a Bosch VE pump. This pump features a cold start advance system that connectes to the engine's pipes cooling water system. Does anyone know how to adjust this system? Thank you very much.

There is a Iveco Daily manual on Eper downloads about the similar engine which may give adjustment details.
I suspect the cold start device has a "waxstat" inside which may well have failed over the years, so adjustment may not be the answer.
Can you measure it's position hot and cold to see if it is functioning.

 

[Communicator]

It may help to learn that the 8144.91 is the same engine, with an intercooler added. This engine was used in the Lancia Theme from 1984 to 1988, and in the Fiat Croma from 1985 to 1989. The 8140.43 2.8idTD engine which was used in the Ducato until 2000, used a similar cold start device but the heating was electrical from the ignition circuit, so perhaps no adjustment?

 

[andreas albu]

There is a Iveco Daily manual on Eper downloads about the similar engine which may give adjustment details.
I suspect the cold start device has a "waxstat" inside which may well have failed over the years, so adjustment may not be the answer.
Can you measure it's position hot and cold to see if it is functioning.

I couldn't find the manual

 

[andreas albu]

It may help to learn that the 8144.91 is the same engine, with an intercooler added. This engine was used in the Lancia Theme from 1984 to 1988, and in the Fiat Croma from 1985 to 1989. The 8140.43 2.8idTD engine which was used in the Ducato until 2000, used a similar cold start device but the heating was electrical from the ignition circuit, so perhaps no adjustment?

I couldn't find something on similar engine manuals.
My engine also have preheats on injectors.
But starting without cold start device is impossible.

 

[bugsymike]

I couldn't find something on similar engine manuals.
My engine also have preheats on injectors.
But starting without cold start device is impossible.

I may be wrong but I think the water controlled device on your injector pump which as @Communicator has advised you on by advancing the timing gives better running after it has actually started, to assist performance as engine is warming up.
To actually get the engine to start requires the heater plug function or some other form of flame start device depending on what your engine has fitted, as well of course as good compression and fuel, along with a powerful battery.
So if engine spinning over quickly and white smoke, hopefully it just needs the heater plug, or flame start system to be in good order to ignite the fuel.
Has that side been tested and working good or is your problem once the engine has started, in which case the cold start advance device is more relevant.

 

[Communicator]

I couldn't find something on similar engine manuals.
My engine also have preheats on injectors.
But starting without cold start device is impossible.

Are you saying that the engine has glowplugs? (Screw in small electrical heaters, that enter the combustion chamber, and are operated for several seconds before cranking the engine.) I am not aware of heaters on the injectors themselves. Perhaps this description is a translation problem. An indirect injection engine which I think yours is, will need glowplugs, or an alternative device for cold starting. I think that the injection advance is of secondary importance.

An indirect engine has combustion chambers in the cylinder head, while a direct injection engine has the combustion chambers on the crown of the pistons (small open pits). The indirect injection engine has smoother running, but is not as good at cold starting.

I agree with @bugsymike in the previous post, regarding checking the glowplug operation, good compression, starter, and battery etc. Do not overlook battery and engine earthing.

 

[bugsymike]

As @Communicator mentions heater plugs for cold starting are required for "indirect Injection engines" as they generally run at lower compression due to design restrictions, so not only do they have the "swirl chambers" in the cylinder head, they often have a shaped depression in the pistons to help better combustion flow.
When I fitted the 2.8 iTD (Direct injection) engine from a 1997 Ducato Maxi van in to my boat , I ran it all the year round and even with ice on the gunnels in mid Winter it always started first turn of the key with no heating device at all, although the Flame start unit was fitted I never had to connect the wiring.
Admittedly where I live is known for mild Winters.

 

[Communicator]

As @Communicator mentions heater plugs for cold starting are required for "indirect Injection engines" as they generally run at lower compression due to design restrictions, so not only do they have the "swirl chambers" in the cylinder head, they often have a shaped depression in the pistons to help better combustion flow.
When I fitted the 2.8 iTD (Direct injection) engine from a 1997 Ducato Maxi van in to my boat , I ran it all the year round and even with ice on the gunnels in mid Winter it always started first turn of the key with no heating device at all, although the Flame start unit was fitted I never had to connect the wiring.
Admittedly where I live is known for mild Winters.

The swirl chambers on my first vehicle, which was purchased over 60 years ago, had several protrusions opposite to the injector. The design of these protrusions was claimed to modify combustion, and hence engine performance. The depressions in the piston crowns were "V" shaped, with the point of the "V" aligning with the swirl chamber opening.

 

[andreas albu]

Thank you for your information. If i can understand correctly the preheaters im talking about come in contact with the injector fiiting of the cylinder head (like the foto bugsymike sent). The preheaters have been tested and seem to work fine. Our problem appears only at cold start. Battety is" okeyish " seems to rev the engine good. Fuel and fuel filters have been changed and cleaned. The only think we havent checked is the compression. However we noticed one day tha by pulling the lever of the device we were asking towards the flywheel the engine started right away. However we have never worked with such a set up before rhats why we were looking for a manual but we cant access the ones you send us. Maybe we are doing something wrong. Any suggestions are welcome and thank you again for your time and energy

 

[Communicator]

Hi Andreas,
Just thinking about your problem. The engine starting only when the advance lever was operated could be pure chance. Here are two possibilities to consider.
1. The injection pump is not correctly timed, with retarded injection. (Perhaps you have already checked the pump timing?)
2. Is there an air leak in the fuel supply system? You may find this thread on the Iveco Forum interesting.

 

[andreas albu]

Hi Andreas,
Just thinking about your problem. The engine starting only when the advance lever was operated could be pure chance. Here are two possibilities to consider.
1. The injection pump is not correctly timed, with retarded injection. (Perhaps you have already checked the pump timing?)
2. Is there an air leak in the fuel supply system? You may find this thread on the Iveco Forum interesting.

I was thinking maybe the timing isn't right, so I checked the timing on crankshaft, fuel pump and camshaft, and was ok. The fuel pump timing is aligned with its timing marks, and the engine is working without black or white smoke under operating conditions. The only problem is a hard start when is cold.

I also checked for air in fuel system, i couldn't find any leak air or fuel.

 

[jackwhoo]

Do you mean the timing belt is timed to the pump correctly ? That is the start of setting the injection pump timing I believe there are further fine adjustments.
Has the injection pump been replaced?

 

[bugsymike]

Just for accuracy, what age and vehicle has this engine come from and is the engine Series Number 8144.81 0n the chassis plate/vin number.
I have some engine Technical manuals and Timing belt books of various ages, so it will help when giving information.

 

[andreas albu]

Just for accuracy, what age and vehicle has this engine come from and is the engine Series Number 8144.81 0n the chassis plate/vin number.
I have some engine Technical manuals and Timing belt books of various ages, so it will help when giving information.

The engine is on educational lab, the only information that i have for this engine is the serial number(photo below). And in internet that i found maybe this engines was fit on some Fiat Argenta.
Below you will see some photos of the engine

 

[andreas albu]

Do you mean the timing belt is timed to the pump correctly ? That is the start of setting the injection pump timing I believe there are further fine adjustments.
Has the injection pump been replaced?

The timing is ok. I don't know the history of the engine i believe is the original pump cause all the engine looks in good condition

 

[bugsymike]

The engine is on educational lab, the only information that i have for this engine is the serial number(photo below). And in internet that i found maybe this engines was fit on some Fiat Argenta.
Below you will see some photos of the engine

The reason I asked was assuming the compressions were good then regarding the timing details, once the valve timing is correct then the injection pump can be fine tuned using a dial gauge in the blank where the injector pipes come out.
I believe we may have discussed this project in the past.
The Fiat Argenta was short lived in this Country due to it's introduction at the start of the Falklands war so was very unpopular, hence little information on them.

 

[andreas albu]

The reason I asked was assuming the compressions were good then regarding the timing details, once the valve timing is correct then the injection pump can be fine tuned using a dial gauge in the blank where the injector pipes come out.
I believe we may have discussed this project in the past.
The Fiat Argenta was short lived in this Country due to it's introduction at the start of the Falklands war so was very unpopular, hence little information on them.

Well i will see if i can settings the pump with a dial gauge, is something that i never did before, and will be a good thing to learn about it.

 

[bugsymike]

Well i will see if i can settings the pump with a dial gauge, is something that i never did before, and will be a good thing to learn about it.

This may give you some help. you can see the pump timing details as well.

 

[andreas albu]

This may give you some help. you can see the pump timing details as well.

Thanks for your help