General Shuddering over 50mph

[floatinglandrover]

2014 4x4
Does anyone know of a supplier of rear driveshafts or CV joints as this shuddering is driving me crazy,
Initially I put the car in to have the centre bearing replaced and whilst splitting the propshaft the uj was damaged so ended up putting on a new propshaft from eBay which was as when the shuddering started,at that time it was possible to drive to 65 before it became really bad.
So thinking the propshaft was the problem it was sent back and we used it in 2wd for a few months with no noise or vibration at all.
Last week I got round to replacing the uj and installing a new centre bearing on my original propshaft and refitted it.
Now it is worse and can't be driven beyond 55 for fear of something breaking loose.
It seems to come from the rear and I'm considering changing the nearside cv joint or driveshaft as it has significantly more play in it than the offside and hoping that may be the problem but can't find the part for sale online anywhere.
Or if anyone else has experienced the same and cured it I'd love to know how?
Thanks Brian.

 

[Eltezz]

After the new centre bearing and UJ were fitted, did you get the shaft balanced? Sounds to me like that is the most obvious issue. It may have been better to fit a decent quality prop shaft (not ebay) in the first place.

I had no end of trouble with eBay ones and ended up fitting one from Des Shelly in the end. Now no more vibrations.

 

[floatinglandrover]

After the new centre bearing and UJ were fitted, did you get the shaft balanced? Sounds to me like that is the most obvious issue. It may have been better to fit a decent quality prop shaft (not ebay) in the first place.

I had no end of trouble with eBay ones and ended up fitting one from Des Shelly in the end. Now no more vibrations.

I think the problem lies elsewhere as we actually tried two eBay ones and I've spun mine up on the bench whilst sat in rollers with no hint of vibration at 2000 rpm.

 

[Eltezz]

Mmm. Just seems odd. Even though the prop shaft was removed, the diff and half shafts will still be spinning so I can’t see the problem being there.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Just in case... I assume that you are not trying to drive the car in 4WD mode on the road? That causes all sorts of juddering owing to transmission 'wind up'

In normal use (ie with the car left to select 4WD automatically) the car basically drives in 2WD with the drive to the front end only.

 

[floatinglandrover]

Just in case... I assume that you are not trying to drive the car in 4WD mode on the road? That causes all sorts of juddering owing to transmission 'wind up'

In normal use (ie with the car left to select 4WD automatically) the car basically drives in 2WD with the drive to the front end only.

It's permanent 4 WD and you can't get transmission wind up due to the viscous coupling.
All the eld button does is make the abs work in a different way, there's no way of locking the front and back axles tog, certainly not on my car anyway.

 

[floatinglandrover]

Sorry,no way of locking the axles together.

 

[Eltezz]

I think you will find that the four wheel drive is automatically engaged by a solenoid on the diff when the car senses slipping via the ABS sensors. This solenoid can also be activated by the button on the dash and forces 4x4 operation. The solenoid is automatically disengaged over 30mph to prevent damage to the AWD components.

So transmission windup is very much a possibility with these cars if the button is pressed and the car operated on the road.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

It's permanent 4 WD and you can't get transmission wind up due to the viscous coupling.
All the eld button does is make the abs work in a different way, there's no way of locking the front and back axles tog, certainly not on my car anyway.

No. There is no viscous coupling on the post 2012 4x4. And no, it’s not permanent 4x4.

The electronic systems (basically the wheel speed sensors of the ABS) are used to decide if drive to all wheels is needed. If it’s not, then the car is front wheel drive (technically it’s 98% front wheel drive owing to internal frictions at the back). If the system feels rear drive is needed, the solenoid-operated ‘clutch’ system in the rear unit engages the rear drive and can do so in varying degrees up to a 50/50 spilt.

That’s in the ‘auto’ setting - ie no buttons pressed (the default is not ‘off’ but ‘auto’). On the Cross the selector dial has an ‘on road’ position which gives the same setting as the ‘regular’ 4x4 when the ELD/4x4 button is not lit up.

Because there’s not a centre diff, if the 4x4 system is forced to operate (by pressing the button so the light is green, or on the Cross, turning the dial to ‘off road’) that can — and does — create wind-up and can damage the propshaft bearing and UJs.

What you say was correct for the older 169 4x4 - but actually not correct for the old 169 Cross where the solenoid system was first seen.

The ELD system (to stop a spinning wheel) should turn off the forced 4x4 at over 50km/h (30 mph). But technically the four wheel drive can continue to operate at any speed and will do if the button is pressed and that will cause wind up.

 

[floatinglandrover]

Mmm. Just seems odd. Even though the prop shaft was removed, the diff and half shafts will still be spinning so I can’t see the problem being there.

I thought that to begin with but the nearside inner CV joint does have a fair bit of play in it so maybe it only when it's under power as without the prop it's coasting all the time.

 

[floatinglandrover]

No. There is no viscous coupling on the post 2012 4x4. And no, it’s not permanent 4x4.

The electronic systems (basically the wheel speed sensors of the ABS) are used to decide if drive to all wheels is needed. If it’s not, then the car is front wheel drive (technically it’s 98% front wheel drive owing to internal frictions at the back). If the system feels rear drive is needed, the solenoid-operated ‘clutch’ system in the rear unit engages the rear drive and can do so in varying degrees up to a 50/50 spilt.

That’s in the ‘auto’ setting - ie no buttons pressed (the default is not ‘off’ but ‘auto’). On the Cross the selector dial has an ‘on road’ position which gives the same setting as the ‘regular’ 4x4 when the ELD/4x4 button is not lit up.

Because there’s not a centre diff, if the 4x4 system is forced to operate (by pressing the button so the light is green, or on the Cross, turning the dial to ‘off toad’) that can — and does — create wind-up and can damage the propshaft bearing and UJs.

What you say was correct for the older 169 4x4 - but actually not correct for the old 169 Cross where the solenoid system was first seen.

Mine has a viscous couple that is bolted to the back end of the propshaft.
Without the prop fitted you can turn the axle flange and feel the resistance of the coupling.

 

[floatinglandrover]

No. There is no viscous coupling on the post 2012 4x4. And no, it’s not permanent 4x4.

The electronic systems (basically the wheel speed sensors of the ABS) are used to decide if drive to all wheels is needed. If it’s not, then the car is front wheel drive (technically it’s 98% front wheel drive owing to internal frictions at the back). If the system feels rear drive is needed, the solenoid-operated ‘clutch’ system in the rear unit engages the rear drive and can do so in varying degrees up to a 50/50 spilt.

That’s in the ‘auto’ setting - ie no buttons pressed (the default is not ‘off’ but ‘auto’). On the Cross the selector dial has an ‘on road’ position which gives the same setting as the ‘regular’ 4x4 when the ELD/4x4 button is not lit up.

Because there’s not a centre diff, if the 4x4 system is forced to operate (by pressing the button so the light is green, or on the Cross, turning the dial to ‘off toad’) that can — and does — create wind-up and can damage the propshaft bearing and UJs.

What you say was correct for the older 169 4x4 - but actually not correct for the old 169 Cross where the solenoid system was first seen.

The system should turn off the forced 4x4 at over 50km/h (30 mph). But if the solenoid system is faulty (jammed) that might not be happening… and maybe that’s the cause of your issue?

Where exactly is the solenoid as there are no visible wires in the vicinity of the rear diff.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Mine has a viscous couple that is bolted to the back end of the propshaft.
Without the prop fitted you can turn the axle flange and feel the resistance of the coupling.

If you have a post 2012 4x4, you will have a drive unit where a solenoid acts on the internals of a fluid clutch. You can see the solenoid sticking out from the left side (near side). There is some internal drag (hence the 98% front drive comments) but it’s not a viscous coupling. There was a lot of debate around this (in many threads around 2014 and later), mostly caused by ‘mis information’ owing to several magazine car tests saying there was a viscous coupling.

 

[floatinglandrover]

No. There is no viscous coupling on the post 2012 4x4. And no, it’s not permanent 4x4.

The electronic systems (basically the wheel speed sensors of the ABS) are used to decide if drive to all wheels is needed. If it’s not, then the car is front wheel drive (technically it’s 98% front wheel drive owing to internal frictions at the back). If the system feels rear drive is needed, the solenoid-operated ‘clutch’ system in the rear unit engages the rear drive and can do so in varying degrees up to a 50/50 spilt.

That’s in the ‘auto’ setting - ie no buttons pressed (the default is not ‘off’ but ‘auto’). On the Cross the selector dial has an ‘on road’ position which gives the same setting as the ‘regular’ 4x4 when the ELD/4x4 button is not lit up.

Because there’s not a centre diff, if the 4x4 system is forced to operate (by pressing the button so the light is green, or on the Cross, turning the dial to ‘off toad’) that can — and does — create wind-up and can damage the propshaft bearing and UJs.

What you say was correct for the older 169 4x4 - but actually not correct for the old 169 Cross where the solenoid system was first seen.

The system should turn off the forced 4x4 at over 50km/h (30 mph). But if the solenoid system is faulty (jammed) that might not be happening… and maybe that’s the cause of your issue?

I'll have a look later when the rain stops,
So if the solenoid is faulty I should be able to remove it and blank the hole to see if that stops the shuddering?

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

I'll have a look later when the rain stops,
So if the solenoid is faulty I should be able to remove it and blank the hole to see if that stops the shuddering?

In principle yes. Not sure if that will work in reality… i don’t think anyone’s tried that yet. There are several posts about the solenoid failing to engage the 4x4.

 

[floatinglandrover]

In principle yes. Not sure if that will work in reality… i don’t think anyone’s tried that yet. There are several posts about the solenoid failing to engage the 4x4.

I'll explore those a bit, thank you.

 

[floatinglandrover]

In principle yes. Not sure if that will work in reality… i don’t think anyone’s tried that yet. There are several posts about the solenoid failing to engage the 4x4.

It would seem if the solenoid fails I should get a warning saying 4x4 unavailable but Italian electrics being what they are who knows.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

It would seem if the solenoid fails I should get a warning saying 4x4 unavailable but Italian electrics being what they are who knows.

That's if it fails to power up (it appears to detect the presence of of current, probably via the CanBus system). That warning usually shows up when battery power is low - suggesting the solenoid uses a fair amount of current. Yours may be receiving power ok, but the internal workings of 'clutch' not moving with the solenoid. Its not a Haldex system (as used by Volkswagen/Audi), but similar in principle.I have seen the Fiat system referred to as being 'electro-pneumatic', suggesting it may not be a physical, mechanical connection to 'the works'.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Here's some images grabbed from the web to help...

The old viscous coupled unit from a pre-2012 (but post 2005) Panda 4x4: the viscous unit circled

Here's the newer, post- 2012 rear diff (the only photo I can find quickly is taken from underneath!). The solenoid is circled...

And here's the solenoid itself in close up, including where the wiring connector is (which is on the forward-facing side of the 'can' on the car.)

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

You might also read this thread (if you've not already) which addresses a similar issue, and also shows another of the commonly-repeated motoring press 'myths' about the wading ability. At the foot of that page are likely to be other links to similar threads (although note these can be quite old)

The press also got very confused over how much ground clearance there was. The 4x4 Panda is a car engineered to cope with snow-covered Alpine roads, and happens to be very good on muddy fields too. But, it's not a LandRover. That's why I also have a Defender )

Panda 4x4 shuddering when ELD engaged | FIAT Panda (2012+)

Hi, I'm looking to buy a Panda 4x4 (2012+ model), or a Cross if my budget can stretch to it. I've been to view a couple this week and found something unusual (or maybe not) when test driving them. Car drives fine, but when I press the ELD button to engage it (green light on,) and manoeuvre at...

www.fiatforum.com