General Shuddering over 50mph

[Herts Hillhopper]

To complete the information, here’s a couple of photos just taken from under mine as it’s not raining today. You can clearly see the wires from the solenoid here (viewed from by the passenger side wheel).

 

[floatinglandrover]

Yes you're right I was working from the other side when I fitted the prop so didn't see it.
If this was permanently engaged it would surely shudder at all speeds once the transmission is wound up but mine only does it over 50mph and stops as soon as drop below which I tested on a straight road accelerating and decelerating two or three times so it definitely points to something out of balance.

 

[Eltezz]

I know I am repeating myself, but if the problem goes away when the propshaft is not fitted the I think that can only be where the problem is. I also don't think spinning the shaft on the bench is the same as putting it on a dynamic balancer...

 

[floatinglandrover]

I know I am repeating myself, but if the problem goes away when the propshaft is not fitted the I think that can only be where the problem is. I also don't think spinning the shaft on the bench is the same as putting it on a dynamic balancer...

I know but I was quoted £600 to have the propshaft balanced and having already fitted 2 brand new props neither of which solved the problem then I thought it an unnecessary expense.
If it was less than £100 I'd do it just for peace of mind but I don't have much money spare to throw at it.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Yes you're right I was working from the other side when I fitted the prop so didn't see it.
If this was permanently engaged it would surely shudder at all speeds once the transmission is wound up but mine only does it over 50mph and stops as soon as drop below which I tested on a straight road accelerating and decelerating two or three times so it definitely points to something out of balance.

Yes, it does sound like a balance issue in that case. Did you say you've refitted the original? Did you mark the positions of both ends on the flanges and shaft before removing? And if not, does it get any better (or worse) if you refit the shaft with the ends rotated to align with different bolt holes?

But at least you know how it all works now (Works very well, I should add! )

 

[floatinglandrover]

Yes, it does sound like a balance issue win that case. Did you say you've refitted the original? Did you mark the positions of both ends on teh flanges and shaft before removing? And if not, does it get any better (or worse) if you refit the shaft with the ends rotated to align with different bolt holes?

But at least you know how it all works now (Works very well, I should add! )

No I didn't mark the holes but I cleaned all the mating surfaces, the shuddering is so violent that it couldn't be caused by such a minor thing as not going back in the same holes, I think that could possibly cause a minor vibration but this is much more severe than that.
I'm going to phone round some engineering shops on Monday to see if they can check the propshaft.
Unfortunately there's very few propshaft specialists in Cornwall.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

One more thought... what is the condition of your tyres? Because the 4x4 system uses the wheel speed sensors, there are two things it really doesn't like: markedly different levels of tyre wear between front and back; and non-matched tyres on the car. If all four are fairly evenly worn and all the same brand and pattern (which has an effect on the rolling resistances) then you can discount this. But if not, it's worth considering swapping things around or replacing them. I think there was a thread previously where this was brought up as an issue.

 

[floatinglandrover]

One more thought... what is the condition of your tyres? Because the 4x4 system uses the wheel speed sensors, there are two things it really doesn't like: markedly different levels of tyre wear between front and back; and non-matched tyres on the car. If all four are fairly evenly worn and all the same brand and pattern (which has an effect on the rolling resistances) then you can discount this. But if not, it's worth considering swapping things around or replacing them. I think there was a thread previously where this was brought up as an issue.

It's just had two new tyres on the front and the rears are only a year old and in excellent condition but at this stage I wouldn't dismiss any suggestions .

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

It's just had two new tyres on the front and the rears are only a year old and in excellent condition but at this stage I wouldn't dismiss any suggestions .

To be honest, I'm running out of ideas now! The shaft should have some small thin bits welded onto it in various places, which are the weights added during balancing. (Not only your original one, but those supplied from elsewhere too). I'd be surprised if they weren't balanced before being sold.

I suppose one more thing to look at is the mounting points for the diff unit to the car to see if they are sound? In the earlier photo of mine you can see they do start to rust a bit where teh bolts go through, and other threads here explain how one contributor managed to extract the support rails and refurb them, leaving the diff etc in situ on the car. There are also rubber bushes in the mounts between the diff and those support tubes.

 

[bugsymike]

When you fitted new UJs was the shaft marked in relation to the original UJs and if you removed any sliding spline fittings?
I was taught to always mark original position when fitted new UJs and over the years I have fitted literally 100s.
It's less of a problem on CV type joints but on basic UJs it is much more so.

 

[The Panda Nut]

I thought yousaid it was Ok with the the prop removed. It must be the prop related. Check the rear drive output shsft beRings are ok. Either replace the prop with a decent one, or replace the UJs and centre bearing. Have refurbed prop balanced. Remove and check the 4wd solenoid disengagesq. Visually inspect the tyres lookingfor stepped edge wear. My experience is cheap tyres can cause issues. HH eloquently explains the 4x4 system. Lack of acentre diff means differences between radii offront and rear axles as you corner load rear transmission and the prop. The ALD / 4x4 settings are fot if you really get stuck and need more. Unless you are off roading best left alone. I use for mounting steep kerbs. Otherwise the car will do whats required faster than you can. If the car has been driven on road in forced 4x4 it maybe suffrring from damaged rear drive output bearings in which case it will be expensive.

I had VW golf tdi which shuddered. The tyres looked good with loads of tread. They had stepped wear on the edges. After changing tyres the problem was gone.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

I thought yousaid it was Ok with the the prop removed. It must be the prop related. Check the rear drive output shsft beRings are ok. Either replace the prop with a decent one, or replace the UJs and centre bearing. Have refurbed prop balanced. Remove and check the 4wd solenoid disengagesq. Visually inspect the tyres lookingfor stepped edge wear. My experience is cheap tyres can cause issues. HH eloquently explains the 4x4 system. Lack of acentre diff means differences between radii offront and rear axles as you corner load rear transmission and the prop. The ALD / 4x4 settings are fot if you really get stuck and need more. Unless you are off roading best left alone. I use for mounting steep kerbs. Otherwise the car will do whats required faster than you can. If the car has been driven on road in forced 4x4 it maybe suffrring from damaged rear drive output bearings in which case it will be expensive.

I had VW golf tdi which shuddered. The tyres looked good with loads of tread. They had stepped wear on the edges. After changing tyres the problem was gone.

This thread's got a bit long, so you might have missed that the UJs and bearing have been replaced... as well as two other prop shafts tried

Agree - don't need to press the button, unless you end up with one wheel up off the ground when ELD needs to help you out.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

Another “if you e not already read…”

Propshaft | FIAT Panda (2012+)

thanks to Koalar for heads up, posted on wrong thread https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/143517801062?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&siteid=0&customid=&campid=5335817148&toolid=10001&mpt=5325218 Looking if anyone can help in confirming this will fit Panda cross 2015 diesel NL65 UBS And can...

www.fiatforum.com

 

[The Panda Nut]

This thread's got a bit long, so you might have missedd that the UJs and bearing have been replaced... as well as two other prop shafts tried

Agree - don't need to press the button, unless you end up with one wheel up off the ground when ELD needs to help you out.

No I had seen. I wanted to make the point that with the prop removed it was reported as OK. i wonder how good some replacement props are. After 2 props I would be looking at the rear diff and gearbox bearings, but prop is still top suspect I feel. Rear diff bearing seems morelikely than gearbbox output. I go back to first principles, and, the common reported problem. Each time I end up in the same place. I would add that out of shape and unbalanced wheels and tyres also keep coming to mind.

 

[floatinglandrover]

To be honest, I'm running out of ideas now! The shaft should have some small thin bits welded onto it in various places, which are the weights added during balancing. (Not only your original one, but those supplied from elsewhere too). I'd be surprised if they weren't balanced before being sold.

I suppose one more thing to look at is the mounting points for the diff unit to the car to see if they are sound? In the earlier photo of mine you can see they do start to rust a bit where teh bolts go through, and other threads here explain how one contributor managed to extract the support rails and refurb them, leaving the diff etc in situ on the car. There are also rubber bushes in the mounts between the diff and those support tubes.

When you fitted new UJs was the shaft marked in relation to the original UJs and if you removed any sliding spline fittings?
I was taught to always mark original position when fitted new UJs and over the years I have fitted literally 100s.
It's less of a problem on CV type joints but on basic UJs it is much more so.

There is one one uj and I replaced it as it was ,I guess it's possible it went back together 180⁰ out from the original position but that wouldn't explain the two new propshafts giving the same symptoms one of which was sold on and fitted with no issues

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

There is one one uj and I replaced it as it was ,I guess it's possible it went back together 180⁰ out from the original position but that wouldn't explain the two new propshafts giving the same symptoms one of which was sold on and fitted with no issues

Ah ha - extra info there: shaft was ok in another car but not yours. That alters things , and points to rear differential, it’s mountings, half shafts or rear bearings (as I know you’ve already mentioned).

 

[bugsymike]

There is one one uj and I replaced it as it was ,I guess it's possible it went back together 180⁰ out from the original position but that wouldn't explain the two new propshafts giving the same symptoms one of which was sold on and fitted with no issues

My only other suggestion is if you have a friendly garage who can support car on ramp safely in it's normal suspension height running position with some one running it at the point where vibration occurs, then someone under car should be able to feel the area near the the hubs/diff / gearbox etc where the vibration is coming from.
Note I have done this many times , but it does need to be done safely!!!

 

[floatinglandrover]

To be honest, I'm running out of ideas now! The shaft should have some small thin bits welded onto it in various places, which are the weights added during balancing. (Not only your original one, but those supplied from elsewhere too). I'd be surprised if they weren't balanced before being sold.

I suppose one more thing to look at is the mounting points for the diff unit to the car to see if they are sound? In the earlier photo of mine you can see they do start to rust a bit where teh bolts go through, and other threads here explain how one contributor managed to extract the support rails and refurb them, leaving the diff etc in situ on the car. There are also rubber bushes in the mounts between the diff and those support tubes.

When you fitted new UJs was the shaft marked in relation to the original UJs and if you removed any sliding spline fittings?
I was taught to always mark original position when fitted new UJs and over the years I have fitted literally 100s.
It's less of a problem on CV type joints but on basic UJs it is much more so.

There is one one uj and I replaced it as it was ,I guess it's possible it went back together 180⁰ out from the original position but that wouldn't explain the two new propshafts giving the same symptoms one of which was

My only other suggestion is if you have a friendly garage who can support car on ramp safely in it's normal suspension height running position with some one running it at the point where vibration occurs, then someone under car should be able to feel the area near the the hubs/diff / gearbox etc where the vibration is coming from.
Note I have done this many times , but it does need to be done safely!!!

It's no a vibration it's a violation shuddering which could possibly shake the car off the ramp so probably too dangerous but I'd thought about fixing a go pro camera underneath in various spots to maybe isolate the problem.

 

[bugsymike]

It's no a vibration it's a violation shuddering which could possibly shake the car off the ramp so probably too dangerous but I'd thought about fixing a go pro camera underneath in various spots to maybe isolate the problem.

Your choice, but it has located many similar faults in the past and you don't need to go flat out , just gradually build up to the start of your "violation".

 

[floatinglandrover]

To be honest, I'm running out of ideas now! The shaft should have some small thin bits welded onto it in various places, which are the weights added during balancing. (Not only your original one, but those supplied from elsewhere too). I'd be surprised if they weren't balanced before being sold.

I suppose one more thing to look at is the mounting points for the diff unit to the car to see if they are sound? In the earlier photo of mine you can see they do start to rust a bit where teh bolts go through, and other threads here explain how one contributor managed to extract the support rails and refurb them, leaving the diff etc in situ on the car. There are also rubber bushes in the mounts between the diff and those support tubes.

When you fitted new UJs was the shaft marked in relation to the original UJs and if you removed any sliding spline fittings?
I was taught to always mark original position when fitted new UJs and over the years I have fitted literally 100s.
It's less of a problem on CV type joints but on basic UJs it is much more so.

There is one one uj and I replaced it as it was ,I guess it's possible it went back together 180⁰ out from the original position but that wouldn't explain the two new propshafts giving the same symptoms one of which was

No I had seen. I wanted to make the point that with the prop removed it was reported as OK. i wonder how good some replacement props are. After 2 props I would be looking at the rear diff and gearbox bearings, but prop is still top suspect I feel. Rear diff bearing seems morelikely than gearbbox output. I go back to first principles, and, the common reported problem. Each time I end up in the same place. I would add that out of shape and unbalanced wheels and tyres also keep coming to mind.

UYour choice, but it has located many similar faults in the past and you don't need to go flat out , just gradually build up to the start of your "violation".